Me Too

By the way, Beth's post was not "a criticism of 4 year old boys". Rather it was a criticism of the way some parents raise their boys. Not necessarily a very precise critique either, IMO, given that the traditional gender role is that a boy should NOT fight a girl, even in self defense. At least that was the rule in my childhood. You were supposed to know that boys were stronger than girls and it was not fair to fight them, or grab them, or anything like that. And if they tried to annoy you or poke at you, you were just supposed to ignore them.

The message is that there is something wrong about boys based on their gender. Boys need to be corrected. Girls are naturally good. A four year old boy is portrayed as aggressive and his girlish peer is a innocent victim... even when they both are in preschool.

There is a common slogan here... "teach boys not to rape". The message is that boys are naturally rapists unless they are corrected by feminist ideology.

Read this article about a feminist mom telling her sons she believes they are "unsafe" based only on their gender. http://www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-politics/details/2017-07-im-done-pretending-men-safe-even-sons/

Parents are forever warning their daughters about how to avoid sexual assault. Fewer parents also talk to their sons about how not to be guilty if sexual assault.

That author is evidently mad in her head, and her sons are growing up hating her and feminists like her. Did ypu read the comments? One lady wrote:



Once again, don't over react to all this noise and madness. I agree though that for the sake of our sons, we should try and do something. Launch a twitter hashtag maybe? Or found a serious man pride organisation? Or write a book?

My son is on record saying he will never get married. That's because he sees my life as painful, bossed around as I am by my wife all the time. I tell him the same: never get married! Then the wife get pissed, invariably.

What's funny here is that a generation ago, my mother-in-law always warned her daughters -- including my wife therefore -- to never marry a man... A generation later, the warning has moved to the other gender !

And fewer still talk to their daughters about how not to be guilty of sexual assault...

True.

Thank you Lash! You are supporting my point.

I believe that parents should avoid these gender based messages; that daughters should avoid being victims and sons should avoid being "guilty". When you give your kids these gender-based messages you are reinforcing gender stereotypes. If you teach a girl to "never be a victim", the message you are giving her is that she is naturally a victim; why else would you be lecturing her on this. Likewise you are teaching your sons that they are naturally a threat just because they are boys.

I teach all my kids (sons and a daughter) to be respectful, assertive and to only accept relationships that make them happy. Teaching your kids goes much deeper than political slogans... it should be a long running conversation about these issues.

I teach my kids about having healthy, respectful and fulfilling adult relationships. I don't see feminism providing very much in the way of positive reinforcement of good relationships.

I was at a breakfast party hosted by the mother of one of my daughter's friends. There were a bunch of other parents from my daughter's school.

There was a mother there who was explaining how she made her pre-teen son ask her for permission before giving her a hug. She said that she wanted to teach her son that he needed to ask for consent before touching a woman. Of course, this mother went and gave hugs to other people around the room with no permission needed.

I was pretty shocked... this poor kid is going to need therapy. I debated saying something, but in this social situation I kept my mouth shut.

Okay so your concerns are about how we educate our sons. I can relate to that. It's important that they don't grow up hating themselves, or hating women.

Yes... and daughters. How we educate our kids is important.

I don't teach my daughter that she is at risk. That is a negative message that is commonly taught to girls, that they need to be worried about being a victim.

I do teach my daughter to be assertive about what she wants and doesn't want in a relationship. I do teach my daughter to be very clear, and so "no, I don't want that", when she doesn't want something. There is research that teaching girls to be assertive significantly reduces the incidence of sexual assault.

My daughter and my sons have the power and the responsibility to make decisions and be in control of their own lives. That is what I teach all of them.

here's what I actually wrote



my post was not about boys or girls

my post was about people thinking it's cute/acceptable when small children/pre-teens physically hurt each other then flip to seeing it as a problem when they're older

it's always a problem when someone hurts another person - it is not cute when they are 4 or 11 or any age

But our societies are super-competitive. People fight and hurt one another all the fuckin' time. It can be physical, it can be verbal, it can be economic, but violence is everywhere. And adults have to take it in the chin and/or dish it out every. single. day.

So why would kids be pacifists, when they watch violence on TV everyday; when they hear their parents arguing all the time; when the war of sexes is raging on the Internet; when the whole society is based on fighting for survival ???

Laudable efforts. My take is more low key I guess. I try to protect my son from maternal overreach, and told my daughter to make noise and push back when but-grabbed in the bus... little more than that in terms of normative guidance. I try to show a good example, and point them to good books/movies... For one thing, I never listened to my parents when I was a kid so I don't assume mine are going to listen to me... :-)

does it work as well as co-operation? no.

the research is on the side of individuals and groups being more successful when they co-operate rather than compete

___

inclusion rider

it's why the old boys' club has worked so well in the past

those old boys co-operate with each other

Well, that may be true, but my point that our societies glamourize violence and competition is also true.

If you want to make a special case for sexual violence being particularly harmful, more than say psychological or economic violence, I would not necessarily agree but you'd be logical in a way. But if your point is that all violence is bad, then you'd be arguing for an insect society. All social mammals are competitive, and wired to be so. There's little we can do about human nature.

It is a mistake to see cooperation as a feminine trait. Successful male dominated teams have been typified with cooperative behavior from NASA to sports teams to the American Congressional Congress in the 18th century.

It is also a mistake to see competitiveness as a masculine trait. You can not be successful without having competitiveness as a trait; you need to confidently promote ideas, expect to be heard, demand space and resources, take leadership over others, win over other people ... these are all essential traits for success.

Cooperation and competitiveness are not opposites. In a sports team, or an engineering team or a army platoon... individuals are cooperating with each other to reach a goal and at the same time competing with each other individually.

This is another area where I teach my sons and my daughters the same. They should exhibit both the ability to cooperate, and the ability to compete.

They are both valuable skills for anyone.

not a chance of that argument coming from me (partly because I don't think you can separate them out very well)

When talking about the differences between boys and girls you have to talk in very general terms because there are always exceptions. However, boys are more competitive and girls more collaborative. Back when I was teacher in Essex I attended a seminar by this bloke who's an expert. The aim, isn't it always, is to raise academic standards for boys, because they are lagging behind girls.

http://hannans.org.uk/geoff-hannan-training/teacher-inset/<br />
The experiment that was used was giving a group of boys and a group of girls a toy to play with. The girls took it in turns, but the toughest boy played with it while the others watched.

Speaking as a teacher his methods were spot on, and helped, a lot.

Max, here's some positive depiction of masculinity for you... :-)