16
   

Me Too

 
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2018 03:17 pm
@maxdancona,
I'm French but live in Italy. Hate that phrase "toxic masculinity". It's little more than an insult unveiling the depth of its users' bigotry. And no, it has not reached our cultural sphere yet. Should it, there are laws in my country against the public apology of hatred for entire human groups based on their race, gender, nationality, etc.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2018 03:19 pm
@ehBeth,
It's not sadness, it's anger.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2018 03:22 pm
@maxdancona,
Seems to me she initiated, then you reacted positively, then she probably reacted to your reaction somehow, then you, then she, then you, then she etc...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2018 04:11 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
your own , and Centrox's, evidence suggests it's already been going on for some time.

Yes. Call us precursors... :-) early adopters.

Quote:
there has been/likely always will be some overlap/relationship between the two but it's nice to imagine that the balance will move further away from power influencing sexual decisions.

That seems utopian to me, somehow, but I understand the feeling. The principle is good, it's application treacherous.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2018 04:14 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

And you think that some group of people would have a problem with that story or that Me Too suggests you did something wrong?


No. That wasn't the point of my story.

My point is that there are norms around dating and sexuality that are based on gender. They aren't dictated from anyone, they developed organically and they persist or evolved based on what works for both men and women. In my opinion, modern feminism is attempting to judge and critique societal norms based on a narrow political narrative isn't accepted by most men or women.

Who gets to decide social gender norms? Can they be changed for political reasons?

In reality they are decided by expectations and needs of people who are dating... or listening to popular music or any other cultural activity.

centrox
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2018 05:48 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
My point is that there are norms around dating and sexuality that are based on gender. They aren't dictated from anyone, they developed organically

Like organic yogurt?

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2018 07:11 pm
@Olivier5,
The people I'm meeting with/talking with know when we're angry and know when we're sad. There is a lot of sadness.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2018 07:12 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

ehBeth wrote:
it's nice to imagine that the balance will move further away from power influencing sexual decisions.

That seems utopian to me, somehow,


that's why I said it was nice to imagine
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2018 07:17 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
between the two but it's nice to imagine that the balance will move further away from power influencing sexual decisions.


Women have the power to make sexual decisions in most sexual encounters. We have to separate the cases of abuse of real power, and the "assumed" power that seems to be imagined between any woman and any man no matter what their relationship.

Take the Aziz Ansari ... people are implying that "Grace" wasn't responsible for her decisions; the idea seems to be any time a woman is in a sexual situation, she has some internal pressure that a man is responsible for.

Sexual equality would mean that men and women are equally responsible for agreeing to any sexual activity.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2018 07:31 pm
@maxdancona,
Here is an example of how assumptions about gender reflect on how people perceive the balance of power in a way that really isn't equal.

One of the biggest power imbalances is between prison guards and prisoners. A prison guard is their by choice, a prisoner has no choice. The prison guard can punish a prisoner, write them up. A prison guard is believed over a prisoner. A prison guard gets to go home at night. It is hard to imagine a greater imbalance of power.

So when a prison guard has sex with a prisoner, who has the power in that relationship? Who is responsible for this sexual encounter? Who is being abused?

The answer, to at least some people is that is the prisoner has the power if the prisoner is a male and the guard is a female.

The ways that the narrative of gender politics influence basic logic is sometimes very clear. In cases of normal sexual encounters between people not in a hierarchical work relationship, it should be assumed that the power balance is equal. And usually it is.

The automatic assumption that women are less powerful then men in social situations is part of the problem... and modern feminism is making it worse.

Read this, and tell me it isn't completely ridiculous. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvq78b/why-do-prison-guards-keep-having-sex-with-inmates-209


Quote:
But along with that progressive change has come a steady drip of lurid tales about sex between guards and inmates. Last week, Ciara Jones, a guard at the St. Louis City jail, was charged with three counts of sexual contact with an inmate, each punishable by up to four years in prison.

We probably shouldn't be too shocked, though. There is no rule, regulation, or state of affairs a savvy prisoner cannot subvert. This has been proven many times over and is confirmed when you talk to long-time inmates.

0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Feb, 2018 03:19 am
@ehBeth,
And what are the people ypu talk to sad about, exactly?
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Feb, 2018 03:49 am
On female rage -- I Used to Insist I Didn’t Get Angry. Not Anymore.
By Leslie Jamison
Jan. 17, 2018

For years, I described myself as someone who wasn’t prone to anger. “I don’t get angry,” I said. “I get sad.” I believed this inclination was mainly about my personality — that sadness was a more natural emotion for me than anger, that I was somehow built this way. It’s easy to misunderstand the self as private, when it’s rarely private at all: It’s always a public artifact, never fixed, perpetually sculpted by social forces. In truth, I was proud to describe myself in terms of sadness rather than anger. Why? Sadness seemed more refined and also more selfless — as if you were holding the pain inside yourself, rather than making someone else deal with its blunt-force trauma.

But a few years ago, I started to get a knot in my gut at the canned cadences of my own refrain: I don’t get angry. I get sad. At the shrillest moments of our own self-declarations — I am X, I am not Y — we often hear in that tinny register another truth, lurking expectantly, and begin to realize there are things about ourselves we don’t yet know. By which I mean that at a certain point, I started to suspect I was angrier than I thought. [...]

The phenomenon of female anger has often been turned against itself, the figure of the angry woman reframed as threat — not the one who has been harmed, but the one bent on harming. She conjures a lineage of threatening archetypes: the harpy and her talons, the witch and her spells, the medusa and her writhing locks. The notion that female anger is unnatural or destructive is learned young; children report perceiving displays of anger as more acceptable from boys than from girls. [...]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/magazine/i-used-to-insist-i-didnt-get-angry-not-anymore.html
0 Replies
 
centrox
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Feb, 2018 03:57 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
Olivier5 wrote:
Sharing the responsibility of sexual initiation with women is in men's best interest, because it will force women to realize how hard it is to propose or ask for sexual intimacy without offending anyone and making any faux pas ever... Trying to court us will hopefully teach women a degree of humility and forgiveness for our own weaknesses in courtship.

your own , and Centrox's, evidence suggests it's already been going on for some time

It has ever been thus. Let's not get era-parochial about this. There is and always has been a spectrum. This is why I object to the over simplification I have seen here. There have always been men who subscribe to all that "alpha male" crap, and women who feel all feminine when they meet a "powerful man". There are men who subscribe to this world view but feel burned that they aren't "alpha" and therefore they can't get the "sex" they feel entitled to. Corresponding women too I daresay, who feel they can't hook a powerful man. There are also men and women who don't buy that analysis. Look at HG Wells. A short, fat man, not at all imposing, with a squeaky voice. Many women found him irresistible (including, it recently transpired, Martha Gellhorn). He had "tiny hands". His body was said to "smell of honey". I don't think that his (very) many lovers had all read Anna Veronica and become fired up with feminist zeal which transmuted into lust.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Feb, 2018 04:16 am
@ehBeth,
Among mammals, males typically fight each others off for females, so that the strongest males will reproduce more than the weaker ones. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that mammal females (including human ones) tend to find male power sexy. It's Darwinian. An athletic male body is generally seen as more desirable than a fat or non-muscular body frame. The classic canon of beauty for men is something like that:

http://www.historywiz.com/images/greece/laocoon.jpg

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Feb, 2018 04:21 am
@centrox,
Of course there's always been a spectrum, but a spectrum can move, evolve, widen or slide on one side. Something like that is happening IMO.
centrox
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Feb, 2018 04:26 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
So it shouldn't come as a surprise that mammal females (including human ones) tend to find male power sexy. It's Darwinian.

They should find intelligence and resourcefulness more sexy, surely, since a brave hunk might get eaten while duking it out with a sabre-toothed tiger, while the nerdy clever guy worked out how to make a trap? That is, if you buy that over simplified "Darwinian" notion (which I don't.)

I see you edited a rather Freudian slip while I was replying...

https://images2.imgbox.com/33/fc/o3kNtJZ9_o.jpg
centrox
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Feb, 2018 04:27 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
a spectrum can move, evolve, widen or slide on one side.

I guess you didn't major in physics?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Feb, 2018 04:29 am
@centrox,
Or Captain Scarlet.

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/captainscarlet/images/2/28/Spectrum_logo.gif/revision/latest?cb=20110322191942
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Feb, 2018 05:33 am
@centrox,
What freudian slip?

Behold! Womankind also finds male intelligence sexy. Not surprisingly again.

It's hard to escape biology. And nobody said that the forces that shaped our evolution are simple, unidirectional. It's always about complex feedbacks systems. But yes, some trends emerge in terms of what males and females find sexy in the other gender. Things like big boobs and wide hips are evidently corelated with reproduction fitness. An athletic man, likewise, provides desirable genetic and behavioral traits as compared to say, a crippled man.

By the way, men tend to like a muscular male body too; they naturally find a greek god statue beautiful, me think, and they too find power arousing. Likewise, women can appreciate other women's beauty and sexiness. Males and females have the same basic brain and feel the same things; their differences are only a matter of degree, within a wide spectrum. I'm not trying to say there are hardwired differences between the sexes, only differences in degree. The same basic instrument (the human brain) is tuned slightly differently for each and everyone of us.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Feb, 2018 05:35 am
@centrox,
I guess you didn't major in biology.
0 Replies
 
 

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