14
   

Me Too

 
 
engineer
 
  1  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 12:07 pm
@ehBeth,
Another interesting read, this about BLM and MeToo from a well known neo-con.

2017 Was the Year I Learned About My White Privilege
ehBeth
 
  1  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 12:12 pm
@engineer,
I read that a couple of weeks ago. Made me really sad.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 12:29 pm
@ehBeth,
I guess. Like "when one is curious" doen't work. Too literal. It means "if you go beyond clichés / keep an open mind" or something like that.

Wonder if i should read her book. It looks interesting. I agree it's common sense that women should behave as sexual subjects, able to assert what they want, unlike Abby Nierman aka the 'Grace' in the Ansari story. But common sense is far less common than ought to be the case, especially during revolutions.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 12:37 pm
@Olivier5,
these were the two pieces that really struck me as sensible

for the first one - I'd remove female to get to my way of thinking about how things should be. everyone should be able to communicate what they want/don't want - and to listen to others when they express their needs/desires

Quote:
It is important that female desire expresses itself in the form of "no, I do not want that" as much as in the form of "yes, that's what I want".

When one is curious, one realizes that feminine pleasure is not so complicated, cerebral and sacred as that... And male pleasure can be much more subtle than some people think!
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 01:09 pm
@Olivier5,
There is a far bigger question here; how would gender and sex work in an equal society? This is not easy question. Feminists represent a minority of women. It is not reasonable for them to dictate the way that all men and women will act.

Sex is messy and emotional and dangerous. We like it that way. Every attempt to regulate sexuality from Puritanism, to Victorianism has failed. The gendered utopia proposed by feminists will fail for the same reason.

The behavior of women is at least as responsible for how sex generally works in society as men are. Women are the gatekeepers of sexuality, they have the ability to say whether sex will happen or not. The way that men act in general largely depends on what women accept.

The reason that men are sexually aggressive is because aggressiveness in males is rewarded. An aggressive male gets to have sex because women want to have sex with him. The reason that women and men have developed these sociological routines is because in some complex general way, it works for both genders. We all play the game.

I would absolutely love for women to initiate sex. If feminists are able to get women to change their behavior in this way... I would become a feminist. In reality it is rare, and before you make the snarky response that maybe it's me, the data are pretty clear that women rarely initiate with any man.

Obviously there is inappropriate sexual aggression. In positions of power and in workplaces or after a woman has made it very clear that she doesn't want it is very clear that such behavior is wrong. But the lines aren't so clear in dating, or in social situations where flirting is expected. Making these lines clear would be a benefit of the MeToo movement. I don't think that other than abuse of power (a worthy accomplishment) the MeToo movement is helping.

I don't think that the average single woman wants what the feminists are proposing. And so, as a single man... I am going stick with what works.
centrox
 
  3  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 01:49 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I would absolutely love for women to initiate sex. If feminists are able to get women to change their behavior in this way... I would become a feminist. In reality it is rare, and before you make the snarky response that maybe it's me, the data are pretty clear that women rarely initiate with any man.

It's happened to me lots of times. Well, at least 6 different women that I can think of. Is that lots?
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 01:58 pm
@centrox,
We all know you are a Stud, Centrox, and that women just fall into line to have sex with you. The rest of us mortals have to work for it.

What did you say your stats are?
0 Replies
 
centrox
 
  2  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 02:47 pm
I am not a "stud". I am not "aggressive" either. I was, as a young man, and (I daresay still am) a rather bookish thin guy with eyeglasses. I do not think that all or even most of the women who "initiated sex" with me did so because they thought I was a wildly handsome testosterone jockey. Believe me I have wondered about this! I think that things I had in my favour may have been that I think I am a fairly easygoing type of person to be with, fairly relaxed, I am a bit of a joker, I think I probably came over as someone who would probably not become a millstone around a girl's neck after a shag, Also I think sometimes the women were bored and thought a shag with me would pass the time nicely or just be fun. I do think a cogent point is that I probably didn't come across as the kind of guy who thought of sex with a girl as a "success" or a "goal". It doesn't always have to be like that.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 02:56 pm
@centrox,
It's amazing what basic hygiene can get you.
0 Replies
 
centrox
 
  2  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 02:56 pm
@centrox,
centrox wrote:
I was, as a young man, and (I daresay still am) a rather bookish thin guy with eyeglasses. I do not think that all or even most of the women who "initiated sex" with me did so because they thought I was a wildly handsome testosterone jockey.

Here's the 25 year old me in 1978
Why did I wear those glasses?

https://images2.imgbox.com/ed/81/GiPlXV2D_o.jpg
0 Replies
 
centrox
 
  2  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 03:07 pm
@centrox,
centrox wrote:
Believe me I have wondered about this!

I think some of them were stoned.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 04:54 pm
@centrox,
centrox wrote:
I think that things I had in my favour may have been that I think I am a fairly easygoing type of person to be with, fairly relaxed, I am a bit of a joker, I think I probably came over as someone who would probably not become a millstone around a girl's neck after a shag, Also I think sometimes the women were bored and thought a shag with me would pass the time nicely or just be fun. I do think a cogent point is that I probably didn't come across as the kind of guy who thought of sex with a girl as a "success" or a "goal".


that's a heaping pile of things to have in your favour
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 09:19 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

centrox wrote:
I think that things I had in my favour may have been that I think I am a fairly easygoing type of person to be with, fairly relaxed, I am a bit of a joker, I think I probably came over as someone who would probably not become a millstone around a girl's neck after a shag, Also I think sometimes the women were bored and thought a shag with me would pass the time nicely or just be fun. I do think a cogent point is that I probably didn't come across as the kind of guy who thought of sex with a girl as a "success" or a "goal".


that's a heaping pile of things to have in your favour


This is a very interesting turn of discussion in a thread entitled "MeToo" Wink

I am very glad that Centrox "shagged" more than 50 women and that EhBeth approves.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 09:23 pm
@maxdancona,


Quote:

I used to have a girlfriend,
But I guess she just couldn't compete,
With all of these love-starved women,
Who keep cowering at my feet
Oh I probably could find me another,
But I guess they're all in awe of me
Who cares?
I never get lonesome
Cause I treasure my own company

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
When you're perfect in every way
I can't wait to look in the mirror
Cause I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man
Oh Lord It's hard to be humble,
But I'm doing the best that I can
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  4  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 09:41 pm
@maxdancona,
The thing I truly admire about you is your adolescent self-assured opinions that you project without even a hint of embarrassment for inappropriate comments.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Thu 8 Feb, 2018 09:49 pm
@glitterbag,
Thanks Glitterbag! And I am sincerely impressed by your sarcasm. But, don't give me the credit for this little tangent. It is the immature personal attacks of your little ideological clique that drove this thread into the mud.

I didn't start throwing mud, I stated an opinion rationally with no personal attacks. Centrox started bragging about his sex life and Edgar started with juvenile name calling. The problem here is that you, Edgar, EhBeth, Izzy et al. want to push an narrow, political narrative and stifle any questions.

I am just pushing back.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 9 Feb, 2018 01:38 am
That's going to hurt.

Quote:
#MeToo movement lawmaker Cristina Garcia investigated for sexual misconduct allegations
By CARLA MARINUCCI , 02/08/2018

SAN FRANCISCO — California Assemblywoman Cristina Garcia — whose high-profile advocacy of the #MeToo movement earned her national media notice — is herself the subject of a state legislative investigation in the wake of a report that she sexually harassed and groped a former legislative staffer.

In December, when Time magazine announced that “Silence Breakers” who spoke out against sexual harassment were its Persons of the Year, Garcia’s face was prominently included in the art accompanying the cover story.

But Daniel Fierro of Cerritos told POLITICO that in 2014, as a 25-year-old staffer to Assemblyman Ian Calderon, he was groped by Garcia, a powerful Democratic lawmaker who chairs the Legislative Women’s Caucus and the Natural Resources Committee.

He said she cornered him alone after the annual Assembly softball game in Sacramento as he attempted to clean up the dugout. Fierro, who said Garcia appeared inebriated, said she began stroking his back, then squeezed his buttocks and attempted to touch his crotch before he extricated himself and quickly left.

Fierro said he never reported the incident, which occurred years before the current #MeToo movement and new whistleblower legislation to protect legislative staffers. But after he mentioned the issue last January to Calderon, his former boss, the matter was then referred to the Assembly Rules Committee, which launched an investigation.

Fierro is not the only one claiming improper advances by Garcia. A prominent Sacramento lobbyist says she also accosted him in May 2017, when she cornered him, made a graphic sexual proposal, and tried to grab his crotch at a political fundraiser. He spoke to POLITICO on the condition of anonymity out of fear of reprisals.

The lobbyist, who represents a major industry association, said that Garcia appeared to have been drinking heavily at a fundraiser hosted by Governor Jerry Brown for state Senator Josh Newman at the de Veres bar in Sacramento. He said he was heading out the door in part to avoid the assemblywoman — who had been increasingly “flirtatious” and had called him on a few occasions before for late night drinks which he repeatedly declined.

She spotted him and said,“Where are you going?” the lobbyist said.

“She came back and was whispering real close and I could smell the booze and see she was pretty far gone,’’ he said. “She looked at me for a second and said, “I’ve set a goal for myself to **** you.”

At that point, Garcia “stepped in front of me and reaches out and is grabbing for my crotch,’’ he said. That was “the line in the sand,” according to the lobbyist, and he stopped her. “I was four inches from her, eyeball to eyeball -- and I said, ‘That ain’t gonna happen.’” [...]

Jessica Levinson, a professor of law and political ethics at Loyola Law School of Los Angeles — and the current president of the Los Angeles Ethics Commission — said that, if proven true, the accusations against Garcia threaten to seriously damage the nationwide movement that has been credited with bringing the issue of sexual harassment into the open.

“Hypocrisy knows no bounds and no partisanship, it crosses all party affiliations,’’ she said. “To the extent that these are substantiated claims, there’s a picture of Cristina Garcia as a hypocrite in the dictionary.”

The stories underscore how “sexual harassment is not OK, period — regardless of whether it’s by a man, or a woman. And frankly, this threatens to set the movement back — because when you have one of the faces of this movement facing these allegations, that’s a real problem.” [...]


https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/08/cristina-garcia-california-metoo-398985
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 9 Feb, 2018 07:14 am
@centrox,
I have a similar experience to yours. I'm shy and have only very rarely proposed to the women i was attracted to. But thankfully, some women let me know that they were attracted by me.

Many of mines were drunk. It removes inhibitions and can change the shiest of girls into a man eater.

maxdancona
 
  -1  
Fri 9 Feb, 2018 07:36 am
@Olivier5,
I never meant to have this be a thread about personal anecdotes.

The point that the behavior of men is largely dictated by what women respond to. If shaving your eyebrows was something that got women to want to have sex with you, most men would be without eyebrows. Men are assertive in relationships because that it is what many women respond to (of course there are exceptions). Obviously there are are lines that shouldn't be crossed. But if women weren't attractive to assertive men, there would be no assertive men.

Feminist ideology is demanding that we change our sexual behavior, our music, our movies without understanding that these are part of our culture because they meet needs or express desires.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 9 Feb, 2018 07:46 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Feminists represent a minority of women. It is not reasonable for them to dictate the way that all men and women will act.

That's not the point Emmanuelle is making. She's just pointing at the logic of the current movement. If women don't want to be (only) sexual objects, then it logically follows that they need to become sexual subjects. If they want sex, there's no other alternative. You can either be passive or active in your sex life, or a bit of both, but you can't be neither active nor passive, neither an object nor a subject. That'd be illogical, hence impossible.

If I say "a door is either open or closed", I'm not imposing my will on doors, I'm just stating a logical proposition. Dito with Emmanuelle's point re. sexual object vs. sexual subject.

You see, it's far easier to criticize someone else's actions than it is to act appropriately. Critique is easy but art is difficult, as we say in French. So far, women had it comparatively easy in that they did not have to approach us men. The only difficulty was to get rid of us when they didn't want us. But after Me Too, I'd bet that men will retreat from the courtship battleground, somewhat, and women will be bound to step in and take responsibility for their own desires -- or they will not have sex.

It's not gona happen to all of us at the same time, but a statistically significant change is bound to happen in gender roles re. sex. Western women have already become more assertive in my lifetime, and this evolution will now accelerate. At east that's my reading.

Sharing the responsibility of sexual initiation with women is in men's best interest, because it will force women to realize how hard it is to propose or ask for sexual intimacy without offending anyone and making any faux pas ever... Trying to court us will hopefully teach women a degree of humility and forgiveness for our own weaknesses in courtship.


 

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