Me Too

I'm pretty sure that any genuine victims who might have been put off from sharing their experiences were put off as much by the endless pile-on of angry dudes rounding on a single other angry dude with successions of posts that were nothing but name-calling, as by the obsessive tangents of that one dude (who himself happens to be a "genuine victim") in question. Dick-swinging pile-ons are not generally a good way to create safe spaces for honest testimony and reflection.

The thread is based on a fantasy; Valiant liberal men protecting and defending women in a dangerous world. I am upset by the way this issue is being used to push a political ideology. But the idea that liberal men are saviors of womankind is also troubling on several levels. Reading Setanta's and Edgar's tearful pleas that they are only trying to save women is laughably sad.

This is a political thread in a public space. Believe or not, no woman (or any other adult person) is going to be damaged by reading anything here.

Does anyone here really think that women need their protection?

I think we all need each other's protection. When people are victimized, harassed, etc, they need their peers and colleagues to speak up and stand up for them.

The testimonies of sexual assault that are coming out thicker than ever now thanks to the #metoo campaign often have one thing in common: a lack of protection and accountability. Victims either told people, only to find that those people dismissed them, told them it was better to keep it to themselves, or at best provided personal comfort and support while not doing anything to challenge the problem itself; or they didn't even think there was any point in telling people, because they knew they didn't stand a chance of it being listened to or acted on.

So yes, the victims of sexual assault and harassment need the protection of their peers. And whether you like it or not, there is a gendered dimension to this. Women are still more likely to be assaulted than men. Probably not by as much as it now looks, because male victims face an even greater taboo -- I came across some striking numbers on that just yesterday, but that's for another time -- but still more likely. Which is only logical considering that sexual abuse thrives in particular in situations where an abuser holds power over someone, especially when he holds enough power to escape accountability, and in our current society men are still more likely to hold that kind of power then women. That also means that men, in particular, must speak out too, and hold other men to account when they mistreat women, rather than thinking "this is a women's issue" or "this is just that woman's issue". Not because of some paternalistic concept of "men protecting their women", but just because we should all stick up for each other, especially when a problem turns out to be as widespread as this. And those among us who by privilege have the most power to act (because they are higher up in the hierarchy, of just because they are men and the harasser is more likely to heed the warnings of another man than the complaint of a woman) have the greatest responsibility.

That's all quite different from what happened in this thread, however. Don't see the pile-on here as doing much whatsoever to protect victims or facilitate their stories.

Well said, Nihm. I agree with this post completely.

In truth, this is a complicated issue and my feelings about this are complicated. I absolutely support people telling their stories and expressing their feelings about what they experienced. It is difficult to offer this support in threads such as this one where politics gets mixed in.

I have mixed feelings about the "MeToo" campaign for many reasons. I like the fact that this is causing discussions. I hope that this reduces the amount sexual abuse in the context of unbalanced power, particularly in the workplace. I am skeptical that a Facebook campaign with no clear practical steps is going to be useful particularly when things get polarized so fast. I wish it were more inclusive. I am being pushed to one side on this forum... I haven't gotten the chance to say what I support about the "MeToo" campaign.

I don't see anything with which I can disagree with in your last post.

Saw that, and took it as an indication that these things can easily go overboard. So Spacey tried to "seduce" a 17 year old, when he himself was in his twenties. He didn't rape him, he didn't try to blackmail him into sex... What's the big scandal here? That Rapp was a minor?

He was 14, not 17. And this was how he tried to "seduce" the 14-year old:

You don't think there's anything wrong in a grown man making sexual advances towards a 14 year old? Really?

Of course it's a bloody big deal, it's paedophilia.

Okay, I got his age wrong. My bad.

I'll tell you what I do like about the 'pile-on' (which isn't how I read it in any case). It gives me more hope that in real life people will not allow others to downplay victims' feelings/stories when they do feel ready to say something.

For most of my life people have encouraged anyone who tried to turn the attention away from victims, who have tried to downplay victims' reactions. Who have tried to turn date rape discussions around by mentioning a crazy person at some random party they went to and how they reacted. To turn the 'me too' into a but me but me but me.

I very much appreciate cyclo, set, engineer, izzy and others who are saying no to the b.s. I don't know all of them in real life, but I get a sense that most of them would not stand for the b.s. in real-life either. What I see from those posts gives me hope.

I don't read the posts from the person they are primarily responding to in this thread as I implemented the ignore function some time ago - it was either that or leave the site.

One hand for the ship, one hand for yourself.

Thank you for saying it so very simply and directly.

<nods>

No EhBeth!

Earlier on this thread I complimented you for having class, you stated your opinion without jumping into this mud-slinging match. I really thought that you were the one person who could disagree without debasing yourself. I didn't need to agree with you; up to this point I treated your posts here with respect because you were acting with dignity. Now you are jumping into bed with most ideological, vulgar and abusive members here.

Are you sure you want to do this EhBeth? I was looking to you as an example of someone acted with dignity. Now you are acting like just another abusive member of the ideological bubble. I already gave up on Osso. I always knew you came from the same orthodox liberal world view as the rest of the clique here. I was really hoping that there would be someone who could express this point of view without being a ass about it.

Now you are just jumping in the crap with the rest of us. Is it really worth it?

The ideological purity of liberals, and the inability to consider any other viewpoint without abuse and disdain, is troubling. It's like a pack of wolves smelling blood.

You STARTED the bullshit in this thread. Remember? Your first post:

https://able2know.org/topic/420471-1#post-6522662



This was an attack on Centrox, by you, when he himself in the VERY POST you replied to had identified himself as a boy victim. You were also off-base because his point was in fact very relevant.

Edgar (respectfully) responds by pointing out that you're yelling at the wrong person in this post:

https://able2know.org/topic/420471-1#post-6522733



You responded with:

https://able2know.org/topic/420471-1#post-6522744



To sum up:

- You are the one who started attacking people in this thread
- You didn't even bother reading the post of the person in question who you were attacking, you just jumped on attacking them
- You are the one who brought up 'politics and ideology'
- You did everything you could to turn the conversation from being about people's stories and experiences, to being about you complaining about other people not validating your experience
- At every opportunity you had to de-escalate, you chose to do the opposite

Now you're attacking one of the best posters here, for daring to recognize the above things are true. You really need to take a step back and own your own behavior and actions in this thread instead of simply blaming everyone else. You could have just told your story and politely reminded people that stories like yours exist and are relevant instead of picking a fight about it. But you chose not to, and now we're the bad guys? I don't think so. You crave drama and like arguing, you came into this thread to argue and make it about yourself, and you succeeded. You claim that nobody here is respecting your viewpoint, but you immediately dismissed and disrespected Centrox's viewpoint (and others throughout this thread as well). Edgar is right to be pissed.

Cycloptichorn

Here is the problem.

You guys want to have this closed little circle of people who all think alike where you can talk about how enlightened you are and how horrible the rest of the world is. There is nothing wrong with this. The problem is that you want to do this is an ostensibly public space, where your world view is broadcast as if it is the only point of view that exists. You expect that no one will question, comment, or disagree or react or have a different perspective... except on a public space like this, anyone can do just that.

There are very good support groups for survivors of sexual assault. Some are online, most are in person. We talk to each other, and share stories in a supportive way... and it is personal, any differences can be worked out respectfully. I don't know how many people here know what a real supportive group for survivors is like. This ain't it.

On Able2know there is an ideological core group of members who want to push a narrow world view and attack anyone who expresses any opinion or shares any experience that questions it.

You wrap your political narrative in sexual assault, the way that conservative wrap theirs in the flag or the troops. It is empty, it is cynical, and the goal is nothing more noble than to win a political fight. I am not saying this about the "MeToo" movement in general (as I explained above my feelings are more complicated that this). But I am saying this about this thread.

This thread is a bunch of self-righteous ideologues, trying to push a world-view and shut-down anyone who questions them. On a public forum, this doesn't always work.

I'd rather withdraw from the thread at this point.

Thank you.

Btw, I put Nimh on ignore when he started quoting Oralloy to me and demanded that I answer him.

I'm not going to be railroaded into talking to someone I hold in absolute contempt. Now I find he's cosying up to Max I won't be taking him off ignore for a long time, if ever, birds of a feather and all that.

Beth, Izzy, Cyclo, Set and a few others are handling this admirably. I will just keep my clumsy mouth out of it for now.

But, you are the one who begin their participation by attacking someone and their opinion because you didn't agree with it! Do you not admit this?

You can't reasonably blame everyone for ganging up on you when you showed up with a chip on your shoulder and started yelling at people. Don't you understand that? You're not going to get very far by simply accusing everyone else of having problems and bad behavior while ignoring your own.

These are my attempts to discuss this civilly, by the way, sure hope this pans out. The alternative is more fun for me by far, but less productive for the thread and I'm trying to be a good citizen here

Cycloptichorn

I don't blame anyone for my "behavior" on this thread. Nor, do I accept responsibility for anyone else's behavior on this thread. It is what is.

As, I said before. This is a public forum. I expressed my sincere feelings; which admittedly include some anger, some frustration and some angst that this issue is being politicized. When Nimh took the time to open up and have a conversation (rather than shutting me down), I appreciated it. I backtracked a bit and agreed with him.

Everyone is responsible for their own behavior on this thread. Me, Edgar, Centrox, Izzy, EhBeth, Osso... we are responsible. Anyone of us could have engaged productively, or ignored each other. I will note again that I responded positively to several posts on this thread, including an early one by EhBeth.

The idea that you can post some enlightened post on a political forum that can't be questioned, and then you can block out any reaction or response you don't approve of is not realistic on a public site such as Able2Know. I can't judge what Edgar's intent was. But taking him at his word, his utopian goal for this thread wasn't realistic.

There are places on the internet where you restrict a conversation to people of whom you approve. There are places you can block any responses that aren't "good" by your own judgement. This isn't one of them. The view here seems that you can use vulgar name-calling to get people you don't approve of to disappear.