10
   

Shooting with multiple casualties in Vegas at Aldeen's concert

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  6  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2017 08:26 pm
https://scontent.fhou1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22228457_1873108219373104_5033887198789595052_n.jpg?oh=0fcdbf02e0c01be9c5d42027f219b52e&oe=5A3A739F
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2017 10:02 pm
@McGentrix,
My interest there was to point out that the Constitution gives authority to the Congress and the states to regulate the militia, and the courts have consistently interpreted this to mean a right of firearms control legislation, as well as control of association of the unorganized militia (see the Dick Act, the Militia Act of 1903). Heller is irrelevant on those issues. I know that the gun lobby (I have no reason to label you a gun nut) love that case, but it is not at all far-reaching, nor the definitive statement on gun regulation that many people seem to think it is.

My remarks did not address either the morality or the realpolitik of the contemporary gun culture and debate. I don't happen to personally believe that there is such a thing as evil. We all make subjective judgments of good and bad, and we both agree that what happened was bad. That clown fired hundreds and hundreds of rounds of ammunition in a brief period of time, and many of those killed and wounded would not have had time to find cover. But there is a substantive distinction which can be raised. Whitman, the Texas Tower shooter in 1966 killed fifteen people, and wounded more than 30 others. But that was over a period of an hour and half--police response was pathetic. One can only imagine what kind of slaughter Whitman could have carried out with weapons such as the Vegas shooter used, in a period of an hour and a half.

Therefore, I don't buy at all the implication in saying that changing gun laws will not "stop evil." After all, what could that loon in Vegas have accomplished in the way of slaughter with a heavy machine gun, with RPGs, with a grenade launcher? There is good reason to suggest that much stricter gun laws, and real enforcement on private and gun show sales could have an important impact. Could it happen overnight? of course not. But one does not refuse to attempt to fix a situation just because it cannot be accomplished instantly.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2017 10:28 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
My interest there was to point out that the Constitution gives authority to the Congress and the states to regulate the militia, and the courts have consistently interpreted this to mean a right of firearms control legislation,

No court has ever even once used the government's authority over the militia as a justification for firearms control legislation.


Setanta wrote:
as well as control of association of the unorganized militia (see the Dick Act, the Militia Act of 1903).

OK.


Setanta wrote:
Heller is irrelevant on those issues.

The militia doesn't have much to do with the right of non-militiamen to have guns that are suitable for self defense.


Setanta wrote:
I know that the gun lobby (I have no reason to label you a gun nut) love that case, but it is not at all far-reaching, nor the definitive statement on gun regulation that many people seem to think it is.

It makes it pretty clear that we have the right to have guns that are suitable for self defense. That's a pretty good first step.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 01:05 am
Quote:
The gunman behind the mass shooting at an open-air festival in Las Vegas had reserved rooms overlooking music venues at other sites, investigators say.
Stephen Paddock is known to have booked a room during the Life is Beautiful festival in Vegas a week before he killed 58 people and injured hundreds.
But it has now emerged the retired accountant may have considered sites in Chicago and Boston.
Investigators are still trying to establish Paddock's motive.
A man named Stephen Paddock reserved a room at the Blackstone Hotel, in Chicago, at the same time as the Lollapalooza music festival was taking pace in the Illinois city.
He never checked in, and a hotel spokesman said they had not confirmed "whether that is the same Stephen Paddock".
Among the revellers at the August festival were former President Barack Obama's daughters, Malia and Sasha.
The booking emerged after Clark County Sheriff Joseph Lombardo revealed Paddock had reserved another apartment in Las Vegas a week before Sunday's massacre.
The apartment was in the Ogden, a high-rise tower which, at the time, was overlooking another open-air concert, Life is Beautiful, where acts included Muse, Lorde and Chance the Rapper.
Meanwhile, The Boston Globe reports Paddock is known to have carried out internet searches for both Fenway Park and the Boston Center for the Arts, citing an anonymous government official.
Both venues have recently held open air events.
More than 100 investigators are combing through the life of Paddock, who has been described as "disturbed and dangerous", in order to find clues about why he committed Sunday's attack.
Sheriff Lombardo said Paddock had been "living a secret life, much of which would never be fully understood".
The gunman's girlfriend has also said she had no idea what he was plotting.
Police found the 64-year-old former accountant dead in a room on the 32nd floor of a hotel after he sprayed bullets on concert-goers below, injuring nearly 500.
He apparently turned one of his many guns on himself as police closed in.
In a press conference on Wednesday, Clark County Sheriff Lombardo was asked if he saw evidence that Paddock had planned to escape after the attack.
The sheriff said "yes". Asked what it was, he said: "I can't tell you."
He also revealed investigators had not entirely discounted the possibility the man they had initially described as a "lone wolf" may not have worked alone after all.
"You've got to make the assumption he had to have some help at some point," Sheriff Lombardo said.
"Maybe he's a super guy, maybe he was working out all this on his own, but it would be hard for me to believe that."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41520829
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 02:45 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
http://static.skynetblogs.be/media/5811/772353471.gif
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 03:18 am
@edgarblythe,
Yes but Australians don't live in a western fantasy land, they don't think of themselves as cowboys, and they're not afraid of their own shadows.
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 05:14 am
@Olivier5,
Rock bottom truth, not only are there too many guns of high killing power already out there, many gun nuts would die in gun battles before giving up even one piece of their personal arsenals.
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 05:40 am
Not detracting from the deaths in Las Vegas, but it's wrong to act as though we only count modern white people in this mass murder.

I'm thinking about the arguable 4000 natives who were tortured to death by the American government on The Trail of Tears and estimated 300 who died at Black Wall Street.

https://www.theroot.com/this-is-only-the-deadliest-shooting-in-u-s-history-bec-1819112938?utm_campaign=socialflow_fusion_facebook&utm_source=fusion_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2959.html

0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  4  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 05:41 am
@edgarblythe,
I used to think that the main advantage of secularism was that it gives nations the capacity to change their law as time goes by and circumstances change, whereas a body of law supposedly inherited from a god cannot be changed so easily... Then I went to America, and realized it's perfectly possible to "sanctify" a human, secular law; to think of it as magical and holy, and therefore immutable. You guys treat your constitution as if it was a holy book. And as a result, you are unable to evolve.

The second amendment is a piece of poorly worded, illogical and obsolete rubbish. The "well regulated militia" part contradicts the "shall not be infringed" part, so the second amendment is self-contradictory. And it was written by people afraid of the idea of a standing army. That fear is now obsolete: the US has a standing army and it's one of the most respected institution in the country. So the whole second amendment is just rubbish, and it has become criminal rubbish. But you're stuck with it because you idolized your constitution.
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 05:50 am
@Olivier5,
The Constitution was intended to keep up with human progress and not set in stone. It can be amended endlessly. The hard part is getting people to recognize this and actually allow push for improvements to be made.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 06:04 am
@edgarblythe,
I am aware that the US constitution was not meant to be carved in stone, and that it has already changed quite a lot. But in this day and age, it is treated as a holy book.

Your own constitution kills you, and worshiping it as some sort of perfect religious law only makes matters worse, as you're unable to free yourself from its nefarious effects.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 06:07 am
@Olivier5,
I can't blame the constitution, but human nature.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 06:09 am
@edgarblythe,
Your constitution is only human, and its second amendment is a piece of legislative crap.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 06:15 am
@Olivier5,
Sure it is. But it can be changed if people come to their senses. With a non amendable document not so. I don't see how one can blame the Constitution for the failure of the people.
McGentrix
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 06:24 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

Sure it is. But it can be changed if people come to their senses. With a non amendable document not so. I don't see how one can blame the Constitution for the failure of the people.


It's had 27 amendments... Though I agree that there are a few that could be done away with so long as we are going to just change the fabric of American government. I've always had trouble with the 19th amendment, it could go easily enough. Same with the 8th. Poor people affording bail? Pft.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 06:31 am
Damn . . . I guess your lady wife doesn't read here, huh?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 06:33 am
@edgarblythe,
I don't mean to blame a piece of paper, evidently. But one can certainly blame the people who originally wrote it, as well as the people who are now so fixated on treating it as a holy book.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 07:45 am
@Olivier5,
It's purposely hard to amend and you have to get around obstructionists and those who want to change the wrong parts. (hint: see above)
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 08:49 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I used to think that the main advantage of secularism was that it gives nations the capacity to change their law as time goes by and circumstances change, whereas a body of law supposedly inherited from a god cannot be changed so easily... Then I went to America, and realized it's perfectly possible to "sanctify" a human, secular law; to think of it as magical and holy, and therefore immutable. You guys treat your constitution as if it was a holy book.

It protects our freedom. It is the reason America remains a free country when all other countries have abandoned freedom.


Olivier5 wrote:
And as a result, you are unable to evolve.

No. As a result our freedom is protected.


Olivier5 wrote:
The second amendment is a piece of poorly worded, illogical and obsolete rubbish.

On the contrary, it has a very clear and precise meaning.

The notion that freedom might be obsolete is just appalling.


Olivier5 wrote:
The "well regulated militia" part contradicts the "shall not be infringed" part, so the second amendment is self-contradictory.

They do have separate meanings, but they are not contradictory. The first half requires the government to always have a militia. The second half protects the right to keep and bear arms from the 1689 English Bill of Rights.


Olivier5 wrote:
And it was written by people afraid of the idea of a standing army. That fear is now obsolete: the US has a standing army and it's one of the most respected institution in the country.

That doesn't make the freedom that is protected by the amendment obsolete.


Olivier5 wrote:
So the whole second amendment is just rubbish, and it has become criminal rubbish.

No. Our freedom is priceless.


Olivier5 wrote:
But you're stuck with it because you idolized your constitution.

Not because we idolize the Constitution. Rather, because we idolize freedom.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 08:50 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
The Constitution was intended to keep up with human progress and not set in stone. It can be amended endlessly. The hard part is getting people to recognize this and actually allow push for improvements to be made.

The hard part for the gun banners is the fact that people don't see abolishing freedom as an improvement.
0 Replies
 
 

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