2
   

Big Girls should take the stairs NOT the elevator

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 02:54 pm
D'artagnan wrote:
Bill, I belong to the ACLU, so I don't need to be reminded about the value of free speech.
It would appear you do, if you don't find the State School's response more offensive than the kid's joke-in-poor-taste.

D'artagnan wrote:
Just for argument sake: If I'm at the family dinner table, is it OK to call my sister fat and tell her to eat less? Would my dad be out-of-line if he told me to shut up?
No. That would be his free-speech exercised. And a private dinner table is not on par with a publicly funded school.

D'artagnan wrote:
A college campus is, in some ways, a closed community. It's OK to have rules re not offending members of the community. Yes, the guy who posted the sign shouldn't be thrown out of school.
Yes and no. Certainly, this State School has the right to regulate behavior... but within reason. The original punishment did not fit the crime... by any stretch of the imagination. Apparently, even the fools who originally imposed it have seen the error in their ways.

D'artagnan wrote:
But braying about how idiotic the whole thing is misses the point entirely.
"But braying about how idiotic the whole thing is' is the point entirely… from the original post onwards. Think it through D'art…I'm quite certain you place a higher value on the freedom of speech, than the feelings of those who were offended by the joke-in-poor-taste, yes?
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:14 pm
timberlandko wrote:
I understand what you're sayin', Acquiunk, but I disagree. I think the excerpts you cite referencing the UNH code and the latitude granted the administrators thereby, and your own observation " ... It looks to me they figured this guy would get no support and solved THEIR problem by lowering the boom on him ... " specifically are what PC is all about.


I've spent a good long time in academia and this looks to me like a group of administrators looking for the easy way out. A lot of these kinds of incidents can be explained by campus (faculty/administration) politics that have nothing to do with the original complaint. If they had thought originally that there was support for this guy, they would have simply sent a janitor over to take the sign down and told every one to calm down. As it was, someone calculated that there was likely to be some heat from a campuss group (women's studies department?) and went for the smack down (for that's what is was) to prevent trouble from that quarter. The complaining groups generally care little about the incident either. They are trying to enhance their position in the continual college scrum for funding, space or whatever goodies are available. (squeeky wheels get greased) In this case it blew up in the administration's face and now their fake guidelines are under scrutiny.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:22 pm
Kristie wrote:
The problem is that this isn't sexual harrassment. This is fact. Tasteless and crude perhaps but true none the less. Americans should be taking the stairs.


What's tasteless and crude is defending this sophomore's action... by quoting a document that a percentage of Americans are fat.

The flyer said that 90% of the freshman girls were going to gain weight, if you'll recall. He posted that along with inflamatory rhetoric and unfounded reasons for not being fat (so it doesn't hurt his eyes). He posted it in a public place, one that all those fat girls might want to use... a place where they might now feel intimidated for using EVEN THOUGH they also paid their money to live there in peace.

Here's the University of New Hampshire's Rules (and these don't include the ones students would have to sign to get into a dorm). I don't see much that is vague here.

Quote:

Policy
It is the policy of the University of New Hampshire to uphold the constitutional rights of all members of the university community and to abide by all United States and New Hampshire State laws applicable to discrimination and harassment.

In accordance with those laws, all members of the UNH community will be responsible for maintaining a university environment that is free of intimidation and harassment. Therefore, no member of UNH may engage in harassing behavior within the jurisdiction of the university that unjustly interferes with any individual's required tasks, career opportunities, learning, or participation in university life.

This body of law incorporates federal and state statutes, agency regulations and guidelines, and any judicial opinions interpreting or applying those laws. Generally, discrimination and harassment complaints related to race, color, religion, age, sex, national origin, or sexual orientation, are addressed by Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and/or New Hampshire's Law Against Discrimination (RSA 354-A). Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) regulations under Title VII and the Office of Civil Rights (OCR) regulations under Title IX of the Education Amendment of 1972 deal with sex discrimination and sexual harassment. EEOC and OCR also regulate Sections 503 and 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 to address complaints of physical, mental and learning disabilities. Categories not included under Federal or State law but included in university policy are treated the same way as protected categories.


Policy Eligibility
The University of New Hampshire's Policy on Discriminatory Harassment covers all UNH community members, whether student, staff, or faculty.

This publication covers the process for investigating and adjudicating complaints of discrimination or discriminatory harassment by faculty of staff.

The process for investigating and adjudicating complaints of discrimination or discriminatory harassment by students is detailed in the student code of conduct and judicial process as set forth in the UNH Student Rights, Rules and Responsibilities publication.

Student complaints of discrimination or discriminatory harassment by graduate assistants can follow the process outlined in this document or the judicial process set forth in the UNH Student Rights, Rules, and Responsibilities publication. For further student information, contact the Judicial Programs Office at 862-3377.


Guidelines for Interpreting the Policy
This policy covers discriminatory harassment, including sexual harassment, as established by the federal and state laws cited on the previous page. Such harassment may take the form of unwelcome sexual advances, graffiti, jokes, pranks, slurs, insults, threats, remarks made in the person's presence, interference with the person's work or academic life, vandalism, assignment of unpleasant duties, or even physical assault directed against any member of a protected class.

The requirements of federal and state law determine the definition of discriminatory harassment. The relevant body of law stipulates that any behavior may be considered to be harassing when:

1) submission to or rejection of such behavior by an individual is used as a basis for employment or academic decisions affecting that individual; or

2) submission to such behavior is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of an individual's employment or academic work; or

3) such behavior unjustly, substantially, unreasonably and/or consistently interferes with an individual's work or academic performance or creates an intimidating environment.

Verbal or physical conduct directed at the complainant's race, color, religion, sex, age, national origin, sexual orientation, disability, veteran status, or marital status, is a consideration in the determination of discriminatory harassment. The university will consider the totality of the complaint and its circumstances, the private or public environment of the behavior, the intensity or severity of the actions, the pattern of behavior and the power relationship, if any, between the parties.

Discriminatory harassment does not include comments that are made in the classroom that are germane to the curriculum and a part of the exchange of competing ideas.

A single incident that creates a distractingly uncomfortable atmosphere on a given day does not constitute discriminatory harassment. However, isolated or sporadic acts that are severe may. It is possible for a series of individual incidents, each minor in itself, to have the cumulative effect of becoming pervasively harassing behavior.

Factors to be weighed in the determination of discriminatory harassment include conduct that purposefully places or threatens to place another in fear of imminent bodily injury, and threatens to commit any crime against a person with a purpose to terrorize.

Unjust, substantial, unreasonable, and/or consistent interference with an individual's participation in university life may be signified by responses such as:

avoiding areas of the campus where the behavior in question typically takes place; or,
academic performance or work assignments becoming more difficult because of the behavior in question, including absenteeism; or,
leaving the university because of the behavior in question.
In determining whether discriminatory harassment exists, the University will evaluate the evidence from the standpoint of a reasonable person's reaction and perspective under the circumstances presented.


And, by the way, they did take the signs down immediately (this was in September) and young Timothy felt such remorse that he created an apology to all concerned... once he was told that the university was looking into it. In October he was asked to leave his dorm room and he is now in off-campus housing, but has become the darling of a certain crowd and it's pretty easy to see who they are. (This can all be looked up online.)

Why has this become news now? Too much trouble in the Mid-East? Faux News has to change our attention?
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:27 pm
Piffka wrote:
Kristie wrote:
The problem is that this isn't sexual harrassment. This is fact. Tasteless and crude perhaps but true none the less. Americans should be taking the stairs.


What's tasteless and crude is defending this sophomore's action... by quoting a document that a percentage of Americans are fat.



How is stating the truth defending his actions? I think he's an ass. But it doesn't change the truth that a whole lot of people in this country need to lose weight. The truth hurts sometimes. Face it.
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:30 pm
>insert humor here<

If it were me...
And I were fat...

I would take 4 of the papers, tape them to my body, Mess up my hair , streak makeup on my face and jump up and down in the elevator singing Cookie monsters song....

Nothing is scarier then a crazy fat person jumping in an elevator. It might break. Laughing
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:42 pm
Acquiunk, I think you and I may be talking past one another but making the same overall point. I read your comment " ... someone calculated that there was likely to be some heat from a campuss group (women's studies department?) and went for the smack down (for that's what is was) to prevent trouble from that quarter ... as illustrating the administrator's actions perfectly in the light of PC.

I agree with your observation " ... [the original complainants] ... are trying to enhance their position in the continual college scrum for funding, space or whatever goodies are available ... ", and I believe PC is the tool in use by those parties in their effort to achieve their ends irrespective of the will and sensibilities of the larger community of which they are but a small part.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:45 pm
Aargh - the guy is a sexist li'l turd.

He deserved to be thrown out of the dorm because he was a rude li'l turd. In communal living, if you can't play nice, out you go. Like - you get a couple of warnings, but them ought to be the rules.

I think it was sexist rudeness - I don't think it was sexual harassment.

Oh - someone up there somewhere asked what would happen if he had said "people" not "women".

Same deal. He's still a rude li'l turd. Just not demonstrably a sexist one. Shrugs...



I love those "No Fat Chicks" signs.

It is such a clear way of finding out - with no need to waste time investigating any further - that the male/s displaying them have no brains.

Sort of like real truth in advertising. Saves time and trouble.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:47 pm
So your position is what, Kristie? I want to be sure I'm facing the right way.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:49 pm
Piffka wrote:
So your position is what, Kristie? I want to be sure I'm facing the right way.


Nicely done, Piffka Laughing
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:51 pm
If I understand the defenses of the guy who got in trouble, he was either:

___ a misunderstood satirist.

___ someone issuing an important public-health message.
0 Replies
 
makemeshiver33
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:53 pm
(ok, got tired of reading post)

If his problem was the fact that he had to wait on the elevator because there were too many people using it that lived one floor above.........

Well..........

1. Why didn't he just walk up the flight of stairs and go to his dorm. Instead of being plagued by waiting on the elevator. Or is HE not in need of exercise?

2. His aim didn't have to be at the WOMEN. HE could have very well aimed it at anyone and everyone.

3. Personally, I'd kicked his A$$ over it. I would have taken offense to it, seen him to his room and told him how the "COW"..at the cabbage. That was rude, chauvinist, and down right uncalled for.
0 Replies
 
makemeshiver33
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:54 pm
And Quite Frankly, I deplore a chauvinist pig!!!
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:56 pm
My position is that people take things:

1 - Too literally
2 - Too personally

It was a sign for crying out loud. A stupid piece of paper. If it really offended someone, she should have just taken the sign down.

It wasn't personal. It was a generalized statement.

Being tactful is different than being PC. Being respectful is different than being PC. People have taken it so far you can't say anything without offending someone. This guy is a butt head. We all know that. He said something stupid without thinking. But people need to take it down a notch. The fact remains that yes, college students traditionally gain weight. And yes, a whole hell of a lot of Americans are overweight. I wonder, would this have been such a big deal if the sign had indicated men (or men and women) should use the stairs?

Not to mention, how is this different from the thousands of diet ads you see every day. People don't freak out when a diet ad comes on. It is essentially the same thing. Diet ads tell you you need to lose weight. Magazines tell you you need to lose weight. Tv shows tell you you need to lose weight....should I go on?
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:58 pm
Oh and while I don't agree that what he did was right and I sure as hell don't agree that you need to be 85 lbs to be beautiful, I do believe that everyone has a right to say what they want.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 04:00 pm
kickycan wrote:
I think that the people who are really angry about this just haven't seen what goes on in colleges nowadays. Yes, it was in bad taste, and the answer is to rip down the f*cking sign. No biggie.

Pretty much. I mean, thats about it. Nobody disputes it was in bad taste. Thing is, did it warrant the kind of official sanction it got - or even just any official sanction altogether? For Gods sake, someone just tear the sign down and call the guy an asshole next time (s)he sees him, and on we go with our lives. Students arent little kids who have to go running to the teacher every time someone says something unnice ... grow up already.

Just to take D'Arts line of argument:

Quote:
Just for argument sake: If I'm at the family dinner table, is it OK to call my sister fat and tell her to eat less? Would my dad be out-of-line if he told me to shut up?

Quite, but my translation to this case would be the opposite to what you seem tp consider the "logical" one. If you're at the family dinner table and you call your sister fat, is it the normal thing for her or someone else to go out and get the police in to write you a reprimand? Or is it just something you sort out by yourselves and deal with? Someone should tell that kid to shut up, sure, but how's this an appropriate case for official action? Arent stupid pranks and lame-ass behaviour things kids, like adults, just sort out? If the guy on my soccer team is being an ass, I mean no physical harm or anything just acting lame, I a) tell him off and b) deal with the fact that there'll be asses around and as an adult, I'll just have to deal with it. I'm not gonna run to the director of the whole association and start an official procedure, am I? God.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 04:00 pm
on the same note, I think makesmeshiver has a good point. he could have aimed it at everyone. so would this all be different if he had?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 04:04 pm
Piffka wrote:
Joiehyo's quote from Faux News said:

"He has been evicted from the dorm, put on probation until May 2006, will be forced to participate in a sexual harassment program and write a 3,000-word paper on the program."

He wasn't kicked out of his school. What's the huge problem?

It doesnt bother you that he's branded a SEXUAL HARASSER for posting a stupid sign about fat people?

I know more than a couple of people who were sexually harassed, as do you I'm sure. It's one of the worst possible things. It doesnt bother you that he's branded a perpetrator of something like that when he never did, suggested or pushed anything sexual whatsoever?
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 04:05 pm
Should we post those diet ads on the elevators in the homes of fat people?

A bad boy did a bad thing and got caught. We are talking about it because we have the worst relationship with news that may ever have existed and I despair of civilization.

Thanks, Timber. I am delighted if I made you laugh. Very Happy

Thanks, D'Artganan, you did make me laugh....
Quote:
public service message.


Nimh -- If it were repeated often enough at the dinner table, it is likely that papa may tell the young buck to find another place to live. The kid isn't in jail, is he? He was kicked out of the dorm... and do I wonder about his previous career last year? Yes. Of course, the school rules state the university cannot comment about a student or his escapades as
a freshman.

He's branded a sexual harrasser by Faux News and his champions. The University can't comment.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 04:08 pm
Piffka wrote:
Should we post those diet ads on the elevators in the homes of fat people?



I've seen them in the student center at universities, on billboards, in apartment buildings....and magazines are all over in heavy peoples homes. And tv ads.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 04:13 pm
Piffka wrote:
I haven't read all the links, but I'll bet they did that first. Possibly the signs were put up more than once. Then they looked around to find the perpetrator. He was probably a trouble-maker from before.

Thats a looooooot of assumptions already going on right there.

He posted some stupid prank - so, he must have done lots of stuff before as well, just must have - and so, it was only right to put him in a program meant for sexual harassers?

<shakes head>
0 Replies
 
 

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