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Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 12:29 pm
Set--

Which truth did I claim to be in possession of? (How does any claim of mine during this conversation differ from everyone else's claims?)

Soz--

I don't disagree with anything you put forward in your hypothesis.

Here is mine:

1.) That there are a lot of liberals in academe. Just as there are a lot of conservatives in the military, as another example of a field that tends to attract one or the other.

2.) That there are students who are unhappy with their professors. For many reasons mind you.

3.) That there are terrible, somewhat bad, and merely OK professors mixed in with a lot of just fine, very good, and absolutely amazing professors. Who are terrible, somewhat bad, and merely OK for many reasons, mind you.

3a) One of the reasons is that they do not self-police their behavior, and this lack of self-restraint or ignorance leads them to inflict their personal political views on students.

3aI) Some of them do this purposefully, and some do it not realizing it.

3aII) It has an unfair and damaging effect on some students.

3aIII) And, even if it doesn't, this is wrong.

But, yes. To get to 3aIII, one needs full evidence.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 12:31 pm
That's cool.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 12:41 pm
Only 153 pages.

LOL!
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 01:08 pm
Ah, that's perfectly cool with me as well.

Kudos Lash, sorry for riding yer ass in the other thread, I'll try not to be a jerk in the future

Cycloptichorn
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 01:48 pm
Apology accepted.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 02:03 pm
Lash wrote:
Set--

Which truth did I claim to be in possession of? (How does any claim of mine during this conversation differ from everyone else's claims?)


Well . . .

On page 152, Lash wrote:
It seems as though there is a hardy contingent who no longer cares about, or even believes in, such a thing as truth.


I had thought about referring to every occassion in this thread upon which you and Fox have asserted that this is true, and "we" know it but refuse to admit it. However, as i am opposed to flogging moribund equines, i'll let that recent example stand for all of the others.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 03:45 pm
I just re-read a lot of pages in this thread, and wonder if anyone can point out how Lash or Foxfyre or any of the conservatives, who wholly or in part support the thesis of the thread, are any more convinced of the rightness of their convictions than are those who disagree with them? In other words how do the conservatives 'state opinion as truth' any more than the liberals do? There is plenty of diversity of points of view here for sure, but can it be proven that one side is more extreme than the other?

Further, not a single conservative who has posted on this thread advocates a mostly conservative campus any more than they advocate a mostly liberal campus. But so far, no one on the liberal side has advocated a healthy mix of ideologies as conducive to a complete education. (Not to mention that no one has yet answered the question re whether they would view a mostly conservative campus as acceptable. I don't know if that is due to oversight or stubborness.)

But here's the thing:

If there was no diversity among the members in this thread, how many different perspectives would have been presented as the issues were discussed and cussed? Everybody who has participated to any extent has had to at least think about different points of view; and, while nobody has probably changed his/her mind, almost certainly some of us will think about the next issue of this type perhaps a bit more broadly.

Wouldn't that kind of diversity also produce the same kind of results on a college campus?

P.S. IMO, anybody who holds an opinion s/he does not believe to be grounded in truth doesn't have much of an opinion.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 04:21 pm
Yeah - as Craven says - opinions are like an ass - everyone has one!

And - by definition, we all believe that our opinions are likely to be correct - otherwise they would not be opinions.

This does not, however, mean that they are correct.

Fox - I get the sense that you, at least, think that holding doggedly onto opinions is somehow virtuous? That being prepared to change them - or to hold clearly in one's mind the idea that they are possibly not correct is somehow weak, or lacking in integrity?

I truly do not understand that mindset, if it is so.

Even "facts" change all the time - as people research more deeply - our ideas about the nature of the very physical universe change all the time, to greater or lesser extents.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 04:23 pm
Lash wrote:
Set--

Which truth did I claim to be in possession of? (How does any claim of mine during this conversation differ from everyone else's claims?)

Soz--

I don't disagree with anything you put forward in your hypothesis.

Here is mine:

1.) That there are a lot of liberals in academe. Just as there are a lot of conservatives in the military, as another example of a field that tends to attract one or the other.

2.) That there are students who are unhappy with their professors. For many reasons mind you.

3.) That there are terrible, somewhat bad, and merely OK professors mixed in with a lot of just fine, very good, and absolutely amazing professors. Who are terrible, somewhat bad, and merely OK for many reasons, mind you.

3a) One of the reasons is that they do not self-police their behavior, and this lack of self-restraint or ignorance leads them to inflict their personal political views on students.

3aI) Some of them do this purposefully, and some do it not realizing it.

3aII) It has an unfair and damaging effect on some students.

3aIII) And, even if it doesn't, this is wrong.

But, yes. To get to 3aIII, one needs full evidence.


Bloody hell!!! I think I agree with Lash!

I am gonna hafta check it more fully later again, though - cos it feels weird!

Laughing



Doing my best against global warming by freezing the infernal regions over again.....
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 04:29 pm
Lash wrote:
Dlowan---

I fully understood and acknowledge the truth (watch out, duck! she said truth!) of your example and agree with your translation of it.

Not to be borrowing, but I don't think you extended it adequately to include MY example.

So people may perceive the same event differently.... so, they may envision seperate realities of that same event..... Does that mean we stop there, and allow resultant damage to occur? Or, are we responsible to investigate what actually occurred, and define the actual presence of truth, if it exists? Everything doesn't possess a skeleton of truth--but many things do.

The professors in question, and their accusers (if the weight of the outcome for one of them is untenable) must have the issue resolved by unbiased parties, -----or at least, people who choose to evaluate the event. Was the student injured unfairly? Was the professor unjustly accused?

It is NOT impossible to say. (Though, not having the paper, the assignment or enough data WE cannot say---) But, truth can be determined in some cases.

<purses lip>

It seems as though there is a hardy contingent who no longer cares about, or even believes in, such a thing as truth.

My wish on you is that your toddlers will adopt this belief, and torment you with your folly through their adolescence!

Did you burn down the garage?

Toddler: <drags cig> Well, it really depends on what you mean by "burn down", doesn't it....really?

<Going for aspirin.>


I never said that truth ought not to be sought, Lash. And, if a student alleges damage has been done, I assume there are mechanisms to attempt to determine this? As there are here? Such things ae taken very seriously - I cannot speak for your country.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 05:06 pm
blatham wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
blatham wrote:
EXACTLY the book you three need. And by all means, continue to stay away from anything remotely scientific or academic (obviously). Life is a complicated thing and there is no sense at all in doing anything which might further discomfit.


There you go again.

"You three."

I have no real problem with being cast within the same "ilk" as foxfyre, but I'm afraid that mysteryman and I are not on the same wavelength.

Nevertheless, "you three" is a rhetorical device of dismissiveness which I've already called you on, and yet you seem to return to it as the babe returns to his mother's teat.

Now we know! It is a scientific and/or academic theorem that there is not a material Liberal bias in today's US Academia. Thank you Prof. Blatham.


Ought to target my insults with more care. Collateral damage everywhere. It's getting just like a US military operation when I post. Possibly I'm keeping the wrong company. "You three" meant the three who went "Yippee!" at finding a source which agreed with them...fox, lash, jw...demonstrating the intellectual stretch these three can manage.


Insult away, but appreciate that in the loftier realms of discourse in this forum, by insulting you leave yourself wide open. For insult to approach the sublime, it must be that much more well crafted. A laser scoped sniper rifle rather than a 12 gauge shotgun.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 05:19 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Finn writes:

Quote:
Don't take it so personally.


Good advice, but difficult to do when the insults are personally directed. Actually a few days ago Blatham said something to the affect that he didn't want me to necessarily shut up, but it was important nobody was influenced by anything I said. I suppose that could be interpreted as a compliment that anything I said is sufficiently influential to be a threat to the entire free world? Smile

I hear you.

My first response to all confrontation is "Take the high road."
This is not because I have some immutable allegience to goodness, but because along with it being substantially correct it is also politically correct. The wild-eyed attackers of today's feminized world will, inevitably, blow themselves up. If one doesn't engage in their incendiary behavior, one is less likely to be struck by shrapnel.

Being a person of unusual intellect, blatham is subject to the siren call of arrogance. Unlike Ulysses, he has'nt put wax in his ears.

Quote:
Oooh, an academic!


"Academic" is a real stretch. I just have a degree of expertise in a couple of areas and apparently don't completely suck as a teacher.

Please don't take my silly banter too seriously. I have respect for academics. If you are a good teacher, you are a treasure.

Quote:
The anecdotal evidence, as respects this topic, of a New Guinea Headhunter might be immaterial, . . .


Damn! I didn't want anybody to find out about that!
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 05:44 pm
Dlowan writes
Quote:
Fox - I get the sense that you, at least, think that holding doggedly onto opinions is somehow virtuous? That being prepared to change them - or to hold clearly in one's mind the idea that they are possibly not correct is somehow weak, or lacking in integrity?


That question is far more complex than you may have intended.

Nobody enjoys being wrong, but do I think doggedly holding onto opinions is somehow virtuous? No. Nor as a rule do I when new or different information changes the premise on which my opinion is based.

I very much respect and admire people who know how they know what they know and why they believe what they believe and can articulate it clearly, without judgmentalism or the need to be patronizing, insulting, or condescending. One of the very best at that on A2K is Asherman, and there are others who are also very good. I can't think of any one of them I haven't disagreed with at least once. And I would guess every one of them is pretty unshakable in their convictions unless different information is presented to change the premise on which their opinions are based.

There is no sin in holding conviction that you can support.

My belief is, and what I teach, is that any opinion worth having is based on verifiable facts, experience, reason, and/or logic and can be articulated and defended without attacking the opinion or person of the one holding a different opinion.

And it is my opinion, based on that criteria, that those unable to do that are just blowing smoke. Sometimes noxious smoke.


Just out of curiosity, Dlowan, are there left wingers in the forum that you think hold doggedly onto their opinions?

I accept those who form their opinions on how they feel about it or on what they seem so to want to be true so desperately, but I don't give much credence to their accuracy.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 01:38 am
Finn writes
Quote:
My first response to all confrontation is "Take the high road."


If all members could do that, A2K could become a force to be reckoned with. At any rate thanks.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 02:45 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Dlowan writes
Quote:
Fox - I get the sense that you, at least, think that holding doggedly onto opinions is somehow virtuous? That being prepared to change them - or to hold clearly in one's mind the idea that they are possibly not correct is somehow weak, or lacking in integrity?


That question is far more complex than you may have intended.

Nobody enjoys being wrong, but do I think doggedly holding onto opinions is somehow virtuous? No. Nor as a rule do I when new or different information changes the premise on which my opinion is based.

I very much respect and admire people who know how they know what they know and why they believe what they believe and can articulate it clearly, without judgmentalism or the need to be patronizing, insulting, or condescending. One of the very best at that on A2K is Asherman, and there are others who are also very good. I can't think of any one of them I haven't disagreed with at least once. And I would guess every one of them is pretty unshakable in their convictions unless different information is presented to change the premise on which their opinions are based.

There is no sin in holding conviction that you can support.

My belief is, and what I teach, is that any opinion worth having is based on verifiable facts, experience, reason, and/or logic and can be articulated and defended without attacking the opinion or person of the one holding a different opinion.

And it is my opinion, based on that criteria, that those unable to do that are just blowing smoke. Sometimes noxious smoke.


Just out of curiosity, Dlowan, are there left wingers in the forum that you think hold doggedly onto their opinions?

I accept those who form their opinions on how they feel about it or on what they seem so to want to be true so desperately, but I don't give much credence to their accuracy.'



Of course.

I am not trying to discuss that - I am more interested in a flavour I have noticed in a lot of conservative comments that seems to imply that NOT adhering doggedly is somehow ..... I dunno - spineless. It prolly isn't worth pursuing, cos I would have to go and gather a lot of evidence to show you what I mean - and it would be more inflammatory than useful - or, put it another way, I don't have the interest or time to pursue it at length at present. Might be interesting another time, though - there are a number of examples on this thread.

Man, we sure have different ideas about what is patronizing, by the way!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 03:56 am
Dlowan writes
Quote:
I am not trying to discuss that - I am more interested in a flavour I have noticed in a lot of conservative comments that seems to imply that NOT adhering doggedly is somehow ..... I dunno - spineless.


But you didn't phrase your question that way. You phrased it to suggest that you think I think being dogmatic is virtuous. Smile

Without seeing an example of the conservative comments, I don't know to what you infer. But the following might possibly apply:

The class I teach is a multigenerational group with a good mix of various degrees of conservative and liberal ideology. (How we determined the ideological makeup of the class is a long story, but it was determined as was agreement that there is merit in both conservatism and liberalism.)

We are dealing with some pretty heavy stuff with religious, social, and political implications. It became apparent that most of the conservatives could more easily formulate and articulate their conclusions drawn from the coursework even though the conclusions were sometimes incomplete and needed development. The liberals didn't come up with objective conclusions as easily though they also got there with some encouragement. When we discussed this as a class, we agreed that conservatives have it easier being more focused on specific objective criteria, while the liberals were more subjective and fluid in their thoughts and were more difficult to pin down.

In the process the liberals were able to better understand the conservatives and were less annoyed at the conservative's seemingly certainty of conviction and that this certainty should not be interpreted that the conservative considered himself to be the repository of all truth. The conservatives were able to better understand the liberals and were less likely to be frustrated by their seemingly indecisiveness and tendency to wander into unrelated criteria, and to appreciate the expanded perspective they frequently were able to provide.

It's a great group, by the way, and they teach me much.

Quote:
It prolly isn't worth pursuing, cos I would have to go and gather a lot of evidence to show you what I mean - and it would be more inflammatory than useful - or, put it another way, I don't have the interest or time to pursue it at length at present. Might be interesting another time, though - there are a number of examples on this thread.


Well again, one example might help me better understand what you mean. But you're right that it could be inflammatory and trigger another one of those 'whose is blackest' exchanges.

Quote:
Man, we sure have different ideas about what is patronizing, by the way!


My definition: Presumed inferiority of the other person and thus haughtily or arrogantly presuming to assist or help him or her.

What's your's?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 05:40 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Dlowan writes
Quote:
I am not trying to discuss that - I am more interested in a flavour I have noticed in a lot of conservative comments that seems to imply that NOT adhering doggedly is somehow ..... I dunno - spineless.


But you didn't phrase your question that way. You phrased it to suggest that you think I think being dogmatic is virtuous. Smile


Well, if so, 'twas not what I intended.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 06:52 am
Last week, Karl Rove said, "The press is not so much liberal as oppositional." Rove is rarely that honest, particularly regarding a hot-button or talking-point issue, but he's very smart and there are few about who have studied the mechanics of modern governance and public relations as minutely as he.

His statement is exactly correct. It is why all presidents, prime ministers and their administrations get regularly pissed at an independent press. It is why they try to make friends with representatives of an independent press, or try to bully and badmouth and discredit or disempower an independent press, or seek to bypass any independent press and replace it with one more supportive and aligned to their goals and policies. It isn't too difficult to understand that the further one goes on this scale from 'make friends with' to 'discredit' to 'bypass/replace' is to move in the direction of demanded conformity. Which is to move towards tyranny.

We are talking here, in this discussion, primarily about America - about American universities and about American political thought regarding universities. This push, organized and strategized (does anyone contest that?) to bring about an equity between conservative and liberal representation in higher education is unique to America. Canada has nothing comparable. Nor, so far as I know, does Australia nor Britain nor Germany nor Denmark, etc. (Voices here and there, from the business community or from more fundamentalist religious communities, arguing against violations of tradition or against liberal economic ideas or against 'impractical' curricula which include Shakespeare but not math, etc., but such diversity of social notions and concepts of educational goals is to be expected).

So, how do we account for this organized push arising in America and not elsewhere? I posit two central factors: a broad societal demand for conformity in America, and a purposive campaign organized to counter the events and changes of the sixties.

The first seems counter-intutitve on the face of it. But as I've noted elsewhere, even De Tocqueville, the great observer of America saw this element in US culture:
Quote:
I know of no country where there is so little true independence of mind and freedom of discussion as in America...The majority raises very formidable barriers to the liberty of opinion; within these barriers and author may write whatever he pleases, but he will repent if he ever step beyond them."


This observation might seem least agreeable to those Americans who are of the flag-waving and more nationalistic sort. Yet, in this present climate, many of them would likely subscribe to it at least so far as what they perceive to be happening in American universities - "little independence of mind"..."formidable barriers to liberty of opinion"..."write what you please and you will repent it". This IS the indictment leveled here by fox, lash, etc. after all. They may well attribute this tendency to some particular characteristic of 'liberalism' (highly ideological and exclusive, perhaps) or perhaps to the hiring practices of American universities ("no gurlz alowd") or to some such. But the claim is the same as DeTocqueville's.

I happen to agree. We all can fall to conformism by default simply through being social creatures. The examples in our social histories, particularly the very ugly ones, are stories we all know. Conformism is dangerous. Group-think very easily leads to disaster.

(more later)
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 08:09 pm
Outraged in Illinois, Thin-Skinned at Princeton
Monday, May 02, 2005
By Scott Norvell
A history professor at Southern Illinois University is being hounded off-campus for distributing suggested reading matter that "alluded" to racist material and made two black teaching assistants uncomfortable, reports the Southern Illinoisan.

Along with the usual litany of material by Rosa Parks, MLK and Malcolm X, Professor Jonathan Bean added to the suggested reading list for his "History 110: 20th Century America" course an article from Frontpagemagazine.com about some 1970s-era murders perpetrated by black activists.

Bean edited out a passage that contained a link to the European American Issues Forum, whose leaders have pledged to ensure the individuals convicted in the so-called Zebra killings spend life in prison.

But the teaching assistants tracked down the original article, followed the link and then complained that Bean was distributing racist propaganda to his students.

-------------
On the face of the information provided, what are your thoughts?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 08:22 pm
The Southern Illusion is how we usually referred to that paper when i worked at that university. This is a case in which i would say that my anectdotal experience suggests to me that the worst excesses of radical, 60's style militant leftism which you can imagine would pale in comparison to that environment. At Southern Illinois University-Carbondale, which the S.I. attribution suggests is the campus referred to, there is an insane atmosphere. The faculty there are so far to the left, that i personally lodged complaints with the Personnel Department (long time ago, before "human resources" was invented) about the treatment i had been subjected to in the job interview process. The staff are by-and-large down-home boys and girls, which means conservative Democrats somewhere to the right of Francisco Franco. The union labor there is represented by the Teamsters, for dog's sake.

SIU-C has a reputation as one of the biggest "party" schools in the country, and their hallowe'en celebration is legendary for alcoholism, drug-abuse, public nudity, fist-fights, you name it . . .

Working at that university was the most surreal experience in my adult life. Were SIU-C the only example upon which i were able to base my opinion, i would not agree with Lash and Fox on this topic, on the basis of them having understated their case.
0 Replies
 
 

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