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Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2005 05:51 pm
[my comments are in boldface blue]
blatham wrote:
I suggest 'correct or remove' rather than 'charge' ... [that is a good suggestion]

Well, that's all consistent, if so remote of possibility that I'll mail you fifty bucks if you can find ANY case of this happening, ever.
So, I'll take it that you are not actually talking about something real, but rather, your personal anger at the prospect of it if it were real. I'm mad about it too.
[you are correct]

Has that been my response to 'government's faulty actions'? An odd turn of events given this government has been, we understand, so free of faulty actions. Did you have a list handy? Laughing [I have previously identified in another thread in which we both participate what I believe to be the US government's faulty actions. However, for example, the invasion of countries which despite our protests permit terrorist encampments within their borders, is not one of them. I think a faulty action pertinent to this thread is our government's aid to colleges which do not correct or remove instructors/teachers/professors (left, right or whatever label) who villify students for student's expressed political views.]

OK, so you haven't been reading carefully. I'm guilty of the same thing now and again. I forgive you the failing.[thank you]

]As regards a false parallel, you remain remarkably unclear and unspecific and non-explanatory as to how the parallel above (you know, the anal rape by priests parallel) is false.
[anal rape is a false parallel because it deals with physical abuse--a crime--and not mental or intellectual abuse or intolerance of diverse opinions--not a crime, but only an ethical failing. The correction or removal of intellectual abusers, whether they be one, a dozen or a gross, can be done by the school without a criminal trial. Alternatively, instead of correction or removal, it can be reduced by simply having the school identify the intellectual abusers so that students (and/or their parents) can, without having to provide any justification whatsoever, be free to avoid or drop out of abuser classes without actual or threat of penalty. Also, the students are free of any stigma for having been former victims of such intellectual abusers]

Yet, even so, to then make the idiotic leap common to this thread and to the Horowitz folks, that therefore such molestation is rampant everytwhere and in need of a remedy of enforced or coerced placement of state or party chosen priests or atheists is deserving of derision.[Perhaps, I missed it! I thought Horowitz et al were first drawing attention to a problem they see, and then recommending how the problem might be solved voluntarily. As for the anal priest thing, that's not an equivalent paradigm for what Horowitz et al are actually recommending. The proper paradigm would be retiring criminal priests and replacing them with non-criminal priests (presumably neither of which are atheists). Replacing intellectually abusing professors, for example, with non-intellectual abusing professors, regardless of their political affiliations, is more akin to what is being recommended here by me and, I thought, Horowitz.]

Finally, as to my 'villification' of governments or posters...as it happens, I consider this present government likely the most vile western nation government in my lifetime. Last night I was at a party on Long Island with a couple of dozen professional folks about our age (50 -65) and let me tellya, my level of negative opinion of Bush and crowd was middle of the road. They are more than a little pissed off here that though it was their city (and they love it) that got hit, Bush has whored the tragedy. They find that, him, those around him, and what they are doing as despicable as do I.

And 'villification' of voices here? By which I assume you mean 'rudeness'...I have little patience for the stupidity of lazy reasoning, nor for failures to self-educate. I think a bunch of you guys are REALLY lousy citizens of both your country and of the whole community of humans. Manners constitute the very least of my concerns.


[Your lack of concern for the irrelevance here of your negative opinions on these things, and your inability to save them for a discussion in which they actually might be relevant, is why I criticized you. My criticism of your behavior in this particular thread stands unabated and undeflected! Your claim of "least of your concerns" appears contradicted by the effort (however modest you might think it is) that you invested in in making these last remarks.]
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 01:50 am
Good Governments don't need to co-opt the media by PURCHASING "un-biased" reporters/coverage.

Only "Evil" Rulers desperately need Propagandists.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 07:20 am
Ican
Quote:
[I have previously identified in another thread in which we both participate what I believe to be the US government's faulty actions. However, for example, the invasion of countries which despite our protests permit terrorist encampments within their borders, is not one of them. I think a faulty action pertinent to this thread is our government's aid to colleges which do not correct or remove instructors/teachers/professors (left, right or whatever label) who villify students for student's expressed political views.]


As to the first part, you see some faults and I see some faults. We both opine on them. As to the second part, we are agreed that such a behavior is unacceptable in education. The issue of remedy is something else.

Quote:
[anal rape is a false parallel because it deals with physical abuse--a crime--and not mental or intellectual abuse or intolerance of diverse opinions--not a crime, but only an ethical failing. The correction or removal of intellectual abusers, whether they be one, a dozen or a gross, can be done by the school without a criminal trial. Alternatively, instead of correction or removal, it can be reduced by simply having the school identify the intellectual abusers so that students (and/or their parents) can, without having to provide any justification whatsoever, be free to avoid or drop out of abuser classes without actual or threat of penalty. Also, the students are free of any stigma for having been former victims of such intellectual abusers]


The point is NOT what differentiates or identifies these two 'misbehaviors' as acts. I'm not, you need to get clear on this, making a parallel between anal rape and the alleged professorial act as similarly bad or benign.

The point IS, what set of evidentiary circumstances allow you/I to make a knowledge claim about anything...and further, to then propose some 'remedy' to fix what we 'know'.

Quote:
Perhaps, I missed it! I thought Horowitz et al were first drawing attention to a problem they see, and then recommending how the problem might be solved voluntarily. As for the anal priest thing, that's not an equivalent paradigm for what Horowitz et al are actually recommending. The proper paradigm would be retiring criminal priests and replacing them with non-criminal priests (presumably neither of which are atheists). Replacing intellectually abusing professors, for example, with non-intellectual abusing professors, regardless of their political affiliations, is more akin to what is being recommended here by me and, I thought, Horowitz.]


No, not voluntarily. Coersively. It isn't "We see this and here is our evidence and we think it inappropriate and think you should change it." It is "We see this even if you don't and will act to impose legislation and funding controls until we achieve what we want." Note Fox's earlier suggestions on funding controls. Note your own. And what does Horowitz want?
Quote:
"I won't be impressed until 40 percent of our professors in universities are conservative," he tells NewsMax.

It is NOT about correcting a prof here or there who has bullied, it is about coerced placement of the politically-agreeable (to Horowitz) into universities.

Quote:
[Your lack of concern for the irrelevance here of your negative opinions on these things, and your inability to save them for a discussion in which they actually might be relevant, is why I criticized you. My criticism of your behavior in this particular thread stands unabated and undeflected! Your claim of "least of your concerns" appears contradicted by the effort (however modest you might think it is) that you invested in in making these last remarks.]

OK. I think you overmuch of a patriot, and I'm not a fan of patriotism. As often happens with the 'patriot', I think you end up defending the morally and logically indefensible too often. What's good about the US (in the terms engaged here) is its foundation upon principles rather than upon the Authority of King or Party or even temporary ruler. Where such principles are violated (racism, torture, deceit, secrecy) your government and society lose precisely that which gives America its unique claim to hope and promise. When you find yourself defending a party or government rather than a principle, you're in trouble.

But on the other hand, you do set out to engage the logical and moral problems in all of these issues with some depth and consistency. For that, you get a special nod.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 09:09 am
ican711nm wrote:
I do not accept the notion that the generally accepted label for my position or for the other guy's position is useful, let alone sufficient, for evaluating the merits of either position.

[..] What criteria shall we use to decide such a political issue? Assuming we disagree on this issue, unless we can agree on the criteria for
evaluating this issue, there is little point in our debating this issue.

Ican, I have and had no interest in debating the actual issue that I used as example with you (or the alternative issue you now propose), and implied in no way to be evaluating its merits. All I discussed was when and how it could be defined to be a conservative position or not. After all, we were discussing the meaning of conservatism (and the possibility of it simultaneously being progressive or not) - not whether that would be a good or a bad thing.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 09:33 am
Boy, I can't believe this thread is still going. Are we still discussing this ridiculous proposition, or have we moved on to a discussion of the discussion? How meta of us.

An earlier point that I missed:

Fox Wrote:
Quote:
Well in truth, in formal debate, the judge would give no points at all to the debater who simply insisted that his opponent had not proved his/her case without showing evidence that in fact his/her opponent had not proved his/her case. Generally each side is attempting to prove an opposite side of an issue.


No offense, but this is untrue. The negative side has no responsibility to even present a case, in a classic LD or CS style debate; only to disprove the aff. side.

I won no less than 4 debates with this method inbetween HS and College debate, and am well versed in both the rules of it, and the history and logical stucture of formal debating.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 09:48 am
Perhaps you're saying the same thing. "Disproving a case" = "showing evidence that [your] opponent had not proved his/her case".

Difference of opinion seems to be that whereas Cyclo (rightly, I think) says that the only "evidence" the challenger needs to present is evidence of the invalidity of the other's argument or proposed proof (the numbers aren't right, the logic isn't sound, the argument is not substantiated). Whereas Fox appears to imply that the challenger needs to come up with evidence of his own showing that the opposite (or something else than what his/her opponent is saying, in any case) is true. That's incorrect, I believe.

Kinda like a defence attorney in a court case, right? All he needs to do is show that the allegation (the alleged argument) has holes in it, doesn't prove anything. It's not up to him to then prove who did do it.

Yes, very meta.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 03:25 pm
blatham wrote:
... The point IS, what set of evidentiary circumstances allow you/I to make a knowledge claim about anything...and further, to then propose some 'remedy' to fix what we 'know'.
[Ok, I think I got it straight now. For my part, I truly cannot personally verify any alleged teacher/professorial intellectual abuse. My own experience way back in the olden days, is that I personally, despite trying many times, could not determine the political views (e.g., Democrat or Republican) of my teachers. My kids now with kids of their own have not encountered that abuse either. However, I can recommend two tactics to discourage such abuse when and if it occurs. First, allow parents and/or their kids on their own to freely move without penalty from teachers who they think are committing such abuse to teachers who they think are not. Second, require the feds to withhold educational aid funds from those institutions that make membership in a particular political party a prerequisite for hiring of and/or granting tenure to a teacher.]

No, not voluntarily. Coersively. It isn't "We see this and here is our evidence and we think it inappropriate and think you should change it." It is "We see this even if you don't and will act to impose legislation and funding controls until we achieve what we want." Note Fox's earlier suggestions on funding controls. Note your own. And what does Horowitz want?
Quote:
“I won’t be impressed until 40 percent of our professors in universities are conservative,” he tells NewsMax.

It is NOT about correcting a prof here or there who has bullied, it is about coerced placement of the politically-agreeable (to Horowitz) into universities.
[Pardon my current ignorance. If I were now convinced what you alleged here to be true is true, I too would be outraged. Personal political points of view must be kept out of the classroom, and also must be kept out of prerequisites for teacher hiring and/or teacher tenure.]

OK. I think you overmuch of a patriot, and I'm not a fan of patriotism. ... When you find yourself defending a party or government rather than a principle, you're in trouble.
[I think my patriotism is expressed as my devotion to certain principles that are often identified (rightly or wrongly) as American principles. Yes, I chose candidate A over candidate B, sometimes because I thought candidate A better than good candidate B. However, unfortunatly, most times I chose candidate A over candidate B because I thought candidate A to be not as bad as Candidate B.

I think the primary function of government ought to be securing what I think are the inallienable rights of people who also honor these same rights as the rights of others. I think people who are legally proven to dishonor these rights of others and/or who repeatedly declare their intention to dishonor these rights of others, forfeit their own rights. Furthermore, I think those who help secure the rights of those who dishonor these same rights, also forfeit their own rights.]


But on the other hand, you do set out to engage the logical and moral problems in all of these issues with some depth and consistency. For that, you get a special nod. [Thank you.][/b]
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 04:01 pm
My turn to bring an opinion piece ...

In the "Conservatives adopt the identity politics they once scorned" thread, a little while ago, I wrote:

nimh wrote:
I dont think, for one, that the Dobsons and Scarboroughs have just taken to their right-PC whining because they were forced to, you know, by that evil Maureen Dowd. I see it more in the context of - the rhetorics of victim politics has worked great for the Reps in the 90s, just as it did wonders to mobilise minorities in the 70s/80s. The Gingrich '94 landslide was fuelled by the talk radio-driven myth of the threatened conservative / christian / white male, always put upon by them evil liberal coastal intellectual elite knowitalls. By now, of course, the Reps themselves are in control of government, Senate, House, most states, etc - but hey, the mentality still needs being milked - its what made the religious right, in particular, big. Hence the indignant outcry over every little incident.

Gary Younge in the Guardian today picks up the gauntlet in an article (column, yes, with all the rhetorical freedom that permits) that has some interesting bearings on some of the stuff we've witnessed in this thread - aside from evoking some unexpected yearning back for Howard Dean (emphases added):

Quote:
Bring back the lash

Gary Younge
Monday January 10, 2005
The Guardian

Whatever happened to the lash? It once was the case that before there could be a backlash, there first had to be a lash. Before Margaret Thatcher's anti-trade union legislation in the 1980s, for example, there was first a period of trade union militancy in the 1970s. Before the Ku Klux Klan was formed in 1866, there was first the emancipation of the slaves following the end of the American civil war in 1865.

This did not necessarily make the backlash more palatable or justifiable. The backlash is something rightwing people do. Like "kempt hair" and "couth behaviour", references to a "leftwing backlash" are rare indeed.

But the notion that a backlash from the right should first be provoked by a lash from the left certainly made the backlash more logical. It was a function of the ebb and flow of the political tide. In order for reactionaries to react, radicals first had to act. So the lash did not only precede the backlash, it was the premise for it: not just a matter of sequence but consequence.

And while no one on the left necessarily liked it, everyone expected it and understood it for it what it was. For, like the call and response at a good Baptist service, the backlash had symmetry, if nothing else, on its side.

But at some stage the equilibrium got wildly out of synch. As the power and influence of the left have diminished over the past 20 years, the lash has all but disappeared; but somehow the backlash never seems to end.

Somewhere along the way those who once masqueraded as the leadership of the liberal left or who sought, at least, to confront the right, quite simply stopped making demands. Far from this being a strategic retreat in the face of the right's superior numbers and resources, it has turned into a full-scale meltdown.

Take last week's confirmation hearings of George Bush's nominee for attorney general, Alberto Gonzales. Gonzales helped orchestrate and approve a blueprint for torture that was later exposed in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and, by all accounts, Guantánamo Bay. He also described the Geneva convention's limitations on questioning prisoners as "obsolete" and "quaint".

Under interrogation, Gonzales developed a faulty memory on his involvement in both these matters and was evasive about many others. There is ample material here, you would think, for a reasonable liberal lash. A man seeking office who is connected to unseemly, brutal images that occurred as a result of an increasingly unpopular war seems fair game.

A leading Democrat on the Senate judiciary committee, Joseph Biden, stuck his teeth in by reassuring Gonzales that he would be confirmed regardless of his answers. Biden then went on to tell the nominee. "This is not about your intelligence, this hearing is not about your competence, it's not about your integrity, it's about your judgment and your candour. We're looking for candour, old buddy. I love you, but you're not very candid so far."

Biden's gentle prodding will no more protect him from rightwing accusations of being unpatriotic than John Kerry's vote for the war prevented Republicans from portraying him as weak on defence. The fact that the left did not make use of the lash does not stop the right from resorting to the backlash.

Indeed, even the relatively mild inquisition Gonzales underwent was enough for Republican senator John Cornyn to brand the hearing as "unnecessarily partisan, even cruel" and claim that "only in Washington would a good man get raked over the coals only for doing his job".


The problem here is not that Gonzales will go on to be confirmed - given their slender numbers in Congress, this is not something the Democrats can do much about. It is that with each failure to promote its principles and values, the liberal left ends up on the defensive, ceding the ideological foundations it needs to build any substantial comeback. As a result the national conversation ends up taking place almost entirely on the right's terms.

Once upon a time, those who assumed leadership of the liberal left described these capitulations as pragmatism. At some point, however, they became a dogma. In 1997 President Bill Clinton described his approach in a speech to the Democratic leadership council. "We had to go area by area to abandon those old false choices, the sterile debate about whether you would take the liberal or conservative positions, that only succeeded in dividing America and holding us back."

This is not a particularly American disease. At some point the Tories will return to power and start a backlash, and we will wonder where our own lash went. For the past 20 years leading social democrats around the world have been burying the terms "left" and "right" as though they were as obsolete and quaint to their own constituencies as the Geneva convention is to Gonzales's.

The trouble is they forgot to tell the right, which has carried on fighting for the interests of those it cares about most
- the rich and powerful - even while the left has abandoned them.

Compare Clinton's speech a year after being re-elected to Bush's, just a day after November's election. "I'll reach out to everyone who shares our goals," said Bush. "I earned capital in the campaign, political capital. And now I intend to spend it. It is my style."

In the words of comedian John Stewart, before he starts on the capital he should first pay back the interest for the four previous years. But why should he? As Frederick Douglass, the abolitionist, once said: "Power concedes nothing without demand." Since liberals stopped demanding, the right has stopped conceding.

The absence of the lash simply changed the nature of the backlash. It is no longer an act of political retribution: the right has turned it into an art form.

First it finds an enemy - preferably a weak minority - gays, unmarried mothers, Muslims, the irreligious, international law or small countries that break international law, asylum seekers, Gypsies etc. In the inconvenient instance that a real enemy, no matter how exaggerated, cannot be found, it constructs one: the "liberal establishment", the "armies of political correctness", the "liberal media" or "feminazis". Then, with the enemy, real or invented, in place, it simply creates and inflates the crisis to suit, and bingo - the bespoke backlash. No lash required.
Add venom and mix recklessly.

While the right's distortions, lies, scapegoating and cheating are all contemptible (and that is before we get to its actual politics), its chutzpah and determination in this respect are not. It has an agenda, and it sticks to it. It has a constituency, and it serves it. If the liberal left wants to be taken seriously, it will have to stand for more than office alone. It's time to bring back the lash.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 04:08 pm
ican's comments
nimh wrote:
Perhaps you're saying the same thing. "Disproving a case" = "showing evidence that [your] opponent had not proved his/her case".
[ I agree that in a court room, where the rule "proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" (e.g., a criminal case where someone's liberty is at stake) governs the decisions by judge or jury, then the proper process is "Disproving a case" = "showing evidence that [your] opponent had not proved his/her case". However, in a court room, where the rule "proven by a preponderance of the evidence" (e.g., a civil case where say property usage is at stake) governs decisions by judge or jury, then the proper process is to prove his/her case by providing more/better evidence than is provided by his/her opponent.

I think few if any arguments on able2know fit the criminal debate paradigm. All or almost all fit the civil debate paradigm. So if one is arguing that a certain person, behavior, procedure, rule, or standard is better or less worse than another, the civil debate paradigm is the more appropriate paradigm for debate.]
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 04:32 pm
nimh wrote:
My turn to bring an opinion piece ...
..."Conservatives adopt the identity politics they once scorned" ...
If the liberal left wants to be taken seriously, it will have to stand for more than office alone. It's time to bring back the lash.

"A pox on both their houses!" Both so-called conservatives and so-called liberals accuse each other of doing exactly what they themselves are guilty of.

How about a political position that says: doing it the current way is not as good as doing it this new way, because ... ? Or how about: doing it the current way is better than doing it this new way, because ... ?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 04:58 pm
ican711nm wrote:
blatham wrote:
... The point IS, what set of evidentiary circumstances allow you/I to make a knowledge claim about anything...and further, to then propose some 'remedy' to fix what we 'know'.
[Ok, I think I got it straight now. For my part, I truly cannot personally verify any alleged teacher/professorial intellectual abuse. My own experience way back in the olden days, is that I personally, despite trying many times, could not determine the political views (e.g., Democrat or Republican) of my teachers. My kids now with kids of their own have not encountered that abuse either. However, I can recommend two tactics to discourage such abuse when and if it occurs. First, allow parents and/or their kids on their own to freely move without penalty from teachers who they think are committing such abuse to teachers who they think are not. Second, require the feds to withhold educational aid funds from those institutions that make membership in a particular political party a prerequisite for hiring of and/or granting tenure to a teacher.]

No, not voluntarily. Coersively. It isn't "We see this and here is our evidence and we think it inappropriate and think you should change it." It is "We see this even if you don't and will act to impose legislation and funding controls until we achieve what we want." Note Fox's earlier suggestions on funding controls. Note your own. And what does Horowitz want?
Quote:
"I won't be impressed until 40 percent of our professors in universities are conservative," he tells NewsMax.

It is NOT about correcting a prof here or there who has bullied, it is about coerced placement of the politically-agreeable (to Horowitz) into universities.
[Pardon my current ignorance. If I were now convinced what you alleged here to be true is true, I too would be outraged. Personal political points of view must be kept out of the classroom, and also must be kept out of prerequisites for teacher hiring and/or teacher tenure.]

OK. I think you overmuch of a patriot, and I'm not a fan of patriotism. ... When you find yourself defending a party or government rather than a principle, you're in trouble.
[I think my patriotism is expressed as my devotion to certain principles that are often identified (rightly or wrongly) as American principles. Yes, I chose candidate A over candidate B, sometimes because I thought candidate A better than good candidate B. However, unfortunatly, most times I chose candidate A over candidate B because I thought candidate A to be not as bad as Candidate B.

I think the primary function of government ought to be securing what I think are the inallienable rights of people who also honor these same rights as the rights of others. I think people who are legally proven to dishonor these rights of others and/or who repeatedly declare their intention to dishonor these rights of others, forfeit their own rights. Furthermore, I think those who help secure the rights of those who dishonor these same rights, also forfeit their own rights.]


But on the other hand, you do set out to engage the logical and moral problems in all of these issues with some depth and consistency. For that, you get a special nod. [Thank you.][/b]


ican
I don't think there is anything here I disagree with. As it happens, I share with you and Lincoln the notion that the principles that stem from the notion of inalienable rights ought to be spread (a moral ought) to such lands where those principles have yet to find voice or acceptance. I just don't happen to think the Bush people are so motivated.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 07:57 pm
blatham wrote:
ican I don't think there is anything here I disagree with. As it happens, I share with you and Lincoln the notion that the principles that stem from the notion of inalienable rights ought to be spread (a moral ought) to such lands where those principles have yet to find voice or acceptance. I just don't happen to think the Bush people are so motivated.

Beyond quoting Bush's speeches, and observing Bush's actions, I cannot provide evidence that refutes your thinking. But I can say that beyond Bush's terrorist suppression bungles, I can find no evidence that Bush is motivated any differently than his speeches and actual (but not necessarily popularly reported) actions indicate.

It comes down to did the Bush administration intentionally commit its terrorist supression bungles? I don't think so.

The Bush administration's terrorist intelligence bungles were significantly aided and abetted by prior bungles of other US government bunglers going back 30 years. Their delay of the Iraq invasion while they vainly attempted to win UN Security Council support for the Iraq invasion was foolish given the then known financial ties France and Russia (two sure vetoers) had with Saddam's regime. Their failure to decide to attempt capture of all Iraqi Baathist government members was simply naive. Their failure to decide to attempt capture of all of the red guard was also naive. Their failure to attempt timely closing of the borders of Iraq with Syria and Iran was asinine. Their failure to closly monitor and control prisoner treatment was naive. However, their decision to invade both Afghanistan and Iraq was not only smart recognition of our, Afghanistani and Iraqi national self-interest, it was courageous. Their realization that the democratization of Afghanistan and Iraq was necessary to accomplishing suppression of future tyrannies and future terrorist harboring in those countries was Lincolnian. Their continuing persistence in holding the January 30th election is admirable.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 10:24 pm
I suppose I'm going to have to defend my comment from awhile back, though Ican has pretty well done so with
Quote:
"A pox on both their houses!" Both so-called conservatives and so-called liberals accuse each other of doing exactly what they themselves are guilty of.


These days it is those most often characterized as 'conservative' who are pushing for tax reform, tax cuts, tort reform, health care reform, prescription drug coverage for seniors, renewed manned space exploration, increased funding for alternative fuels research, school vouchers to reinforce NCLB, medical savings accounts, faith-based initiatives to help people and communities, and some self-determination for social security. Now whether or not one agrees with all or any of these initiatives, it is pretty hard to say any of these are advocating the status quo and/or are not progressive.

Conversely it is most often those characterized as 'liberal' who have their heels dug in and who throw cold water and try to throw up roadblocks to most of these initiatives while introducing few new ideas of their own. In other words that is the group who seems most dedicated to maintaining the status quo these days.

The fact is, both camps have their blind spots, hold the line on certain issues, and think progressively on others. But 'conservatives' as characterized by most here on A2K have definitely been the more progressive group for some years now. And it is the 'liberals' who have been the most conservative. As soon as Democrats elect their next president or regain control of Congress, the situation will almost certainly reverse again.

Ican is dead right about one thing. If we could just get past our prejudices regarding who introduces an idea or demonstrates a principle or expresses a value and focus instead on WHAT ideas, WHAT principles, and WHAT values we can all agree on and support, we might start finding a whole lot more solutions and be a whole lot more progressive a whole lot faster.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 03:32 am
ican711nm wrote:
How about a political position that says: doing it the current way is not as good as doing it this new way, because ... ? Or how about: doing it the current way is better than doing it this new way, because ... ?


whattt ????

dude, ican... i got nothin' but love for ya brother... but ya gotta start puttin' more of that glue on the model and less up your nose man. it's hurtin' ya...

Laughing
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 07:43 am
Foxfyre wrote:
These days it is those most often characterized as 'conservative' who are pushing for tax reform, tax cuts, tort reform, health care reform, prescription drug coverage for seniors, renewed manned space exploration, increased funding for alternative fuels research, school vouchers to reinforce NCLB, medical savings accounts, faith-based initiatives to help people and communities, and some self-determination for social security. [..]

Conversely it is most often those characterized as 'liberal' who have their heels dug in and who throw cold water and try to throw up roadblocks to most of these initiatives while introducing few new ideas of their own.

Well, there is, as you did imply yourself when you wrote, "As soon as Democrats elect their next president or regain control of Congress, the situation will almost certainly reverse again", the tiny question of the Republicans being in government and the Democrats being in (by this point in time) hopeless opposition. So, yes, of course the government is going to come up with all kinds of new programs, ideas and proposals - all of which, in this Bush era, are highly ideologized and rather reactionary - and thus bound to be opposed by the Democrats who simply don't agree with the KIND of change (or change back) the Republican government is supporting. What doesn't, however, logically follow from that is that they are therefore for the status quo or lack any new ideas themselves.

During the election campaign we have in fact witnessed different currents of liberals propose a great many new ideas, many of which worked out in great detail, some proposing incremental change, others quite radical change - progress. Practically speaking, there's not much they can do about those ideas right now: they can bring such proposals to Congress, of course, but all they're gonna get is voted out without a chance. The fact that they have few avenues to launch "new ideas of their own" right now, however, does not mean they don't have any, and thus says nothing whatsoever about whether or not they're still "progressive" or not.

In short, there's a fundamental flaw in your logic. The opportunity to implement change Not Equal the desire to see change or ability to come up with what kind of change. There is no lack of new ideas among the liberals - the presidential candidates have, for example, proposed cartloads of them during their respective primary campaigns. If you're complaining that you see little of those back now, it's obviously because with the current all-dominating Republican majorities in Congress, they have no credible chance of becoming adopted, and thus are often not tabled altogether, and if they are, ignored as irrelevant to the day's politics by the media - and never actually adopted. None of which means they are for the status quo or would rather have everything remain like they are now - that they are conservative, rather than progressive, in short.

To sketch a counterlist to yours, liberals have quite clear ideas about tax reform (worked out in detail by the Kerry team), tax cuts (ones that would not benefit the top 10% above-proportionally, but would instead benefit the middle and working classes more), health care reform (one that would actually lead to drastically expanded health insurance coverage), increased funding for alternative fuels research (I can't actually believe you put that one in the conservative list, considering liberals propose a way greater increase of funding and the Bush administration has consistently poo-poohed the cause), a more effective and seriously better-funded alternative to NCLB, an arrangement to promote initiatives to help people and communities that does not favour religious organisations in particular, and a long-term programme to reform and save social security at either its current or even better levels, instead of a 'reform' thats aimed rather at its partial dismantlement.

The bottom-line difference between these two lists of proposals of course is that many of the conservative "reforms" focus on actually undoing much of the progress that was accomplished since the New Deal, and return the US to its preceding state of a more Harding/Hoover-like "small government". In that sense their "reforms" do indeed deserve the label "conservative". They do not foresee a further step forward from where we are now, but one that takes us back, instead, to those pre-Roosevelt days. They constitute an expression of resentment about where we've come from the thirties through the seventies and a desire to turn the clock back.

I just came upon an example in question the other day, here. The National Labor Relations Act of 1935, the TNR Editors wrote, "was once considered the crown jewel of Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB), which it created, was supposed to ensure that workers enjoyed the [..] freedom of association in the workplace [..] guaranteeing that workers could organize without being fired or threatened". Now we've had some discussion on unions here on A2K, and I know that most conservatives and even many centrists don't consider the unions to be particularly benefitial to anyone (though the stats in the editorial prove that the unions at the very least are benefitial to their members: "Union workers enjoy a 15.5 percent advantage in wages over nonunion workers with comparable skills and are 18.3 percent more likely to have health insurance"). But the right for those workers who do consider unions to be a good thing to become a member of one is a democratic (small "d") accomplishment, right? Yet even such a basic element of progress is being undone now by the Bush government. Temp workers, disabled workers and even artists' models have been among those whom recent decision by the NLRB have denied the right to become a member of a union if they want to:

Quote:
To cut costs, business and public institutions have increasingly replaced full-time employees with temporary or apprentice workers who are not paid comparable wages or benefits. Nonstandard workers like these now make up about a quarter of the workforce. Labor unions have begun to organize them, but employers have objected, and the Bush board has taken their side--ruling, for example, that a union at an Oakdale, New York, long-term care facility cannot organize and represent both workers employed directly by the facility and workers who are employed by the facility but were sent there by a temporary staffing agency. It also blocked organizing of disabled janitors (because they are really engaged in rehabilitation rather than work) and artists' models (who are seen as independent contractors because they own their robes).


Now I'm sure such decisions can be argued to be part of a "reform" of the Labor Relations Act. But since they do not in the least intend to take the country further up the path, but instead aim for it to go back, back to the days from before those pesky Roosevelt-installed checks and balances, there's nothing "progressive" about them.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 08:29 am
Nimh, I would be fascinated to know what 'new ideas' you think were proposed by the Democrats in the recent national election and how those proposed and being debated or in the process of implementation by the Republicans are 'reactionary'? Or at least any more reactionary than most actions taken by government?

And when you factor in that there are more registered Democrats than Republicans overall, why you think the Democrats, who ruled almost exclusively for 60+ years, now find themselves in 'hopeless opposition'? Maybe it is because they continue to beat the drum for tested and failed policies and have nothing new to offer?

Not all policies that look 'progressive' or 'humane' or 'democratic' on paper will play out that way when applied to real life situations.

I have been very disappointed in the Republican party that runs on the time proven principles of smaller government, putting more faith in the resourcefulness and innovation of the American people to come up with solutions to problems, putting more power back into the hands of the people, empowering the private sector, etc., and then given the opportunity to do just that, they turn into the gutless wimps we largely have in Congress now.

I fault the Bush administration for not pushing for more correction and change and, though I have in no way agreed with every policy, I don't think they have at all done too much.

But again, how about we get past "whose ideas' we are debating and try 'what ideas' are being debated for a change?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 11:18 am
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
How about a political position that says: doing it the current way is not as good as doing it this new way, because ... ? Or how about: doing it the current way is better than doing it this new way, because ... ?
whattt ???? dude, ican... i got nothin' but love for ya brother... but ya gotta start puttin' more of that glue on the model and less up your nose man. it's hurtin' ya... Laughing
'Tweren't too much glue up my nose, 'twas too much goo down my toes! Or, more plainly, I was too abstract. Try this instead:
Foxfyre wrote:
But again, how about we get past "whose ideas' we are debating and try 'what ideas' are being debated for a change?


My first criterion for judging a political proposal is whether it expands or contracts or leaves unchanged the security of my inalienable rights. Whether its Progressive, Regressive, Conservative, Liberal, Left, Right, Centrist, Independent, Democrat or Republican is of zero concern to me. Is it going to make my inalienable rights more, less, or as secure, is always my first question? One thing I believe with a passion is that compelling other people to make my living for me makes my inalienable rights less secure. Compelling others to increasingly make my living for me, makes my inalienabvle rights decreasingly secure.

Just so everyone will know exactly where I'm coming from, here's where I'm coming from [boldface emphasis added]:
Our Forefathers wrote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.


Note: In the above, I interpret the word men to mean human beings.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 11:32 am
Ican writes
Quote:
One thing I believe with a passion is that compelling other people to make my living for me makes my inalienable rights less secure. Compelling others to increasingly make my living for me, makes my inalienabvle rights decreasingly secure


One of the more memorable lines from a prior campaign was Senator Gramm of Texas' slogan: "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take everything you have."

Is that what you mean, Ican?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 11:34 am
If anyone ask me the reason that the democrats find themselves out of power are two reasons. One we don't have Bill Clinton and Two we don't have Karl Rove.

It's all about ability to sell and right now we don't have anyone that can sell on our side.

But if you start to look at the opposition that is now taking place for Bush's policies and look at his declining poll numbers, I think we are experiencing buyers remorse with the reality of all republican government. We will see in two years if that is the case. If we don't get anyone to do a better of selling then people might think while the current conservatives and Bush like people are the pitts there is nothing out there better to take it's place.

What saddens me the most is to be a witness to all the gains that progressives (like roosevelt) made go down the drain because conservatives think they know better a way and are better at selling their ideas than anyone we happen to have right now.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 11:48 am
Foxfyre wrote:
And when you factor in that there are more registered Democrats than Republicans overall, why you think the Democrats, who ruled almost exclusively for 60+ years, now find themselves in 'hopeless opposition'? Maybe it is because they continue to beat the drum for tested and failed policies and have nothing new to offer?

Or maybe it's because the registered voters are simply not all that progressive. Or not any more progressive than they are conservative. The fact that the Democrats failed to attract a majority of the votes does not prove that they did not propose progressive ideas - it merely proves that a narrow majority of voters did not like the ideas they proposed enough (enough to override other considerations) - progressive or not.

I'd go out on a limb and propose that voters actually more often than not veer towards the conservative (wanting things to stay as they were of old) rather than the progressive (pleading for change to a proposed, but uncertain better world). Thats why revolutions only rarely are supported by a majority of the population.

Oh, and to just pick up on a random bit of illogic, did you really just say that "the Democrats have ruled almost exclusively for 60+ years"? I know the underdog pose has done wonders for the Right, but what definition of "amost exclusively" are you going by, exactly? Between Roosevelt's first election victory and now, the US has had a Democratic President for 40 years and a Republican one for 32 years. In the last 60 years, Republicans have had the Presidency for longer than the Democrats did.

Foxfyre wrote:
Nimh, I would be fascinated to know what 'new ideas' you think were proposed by the Democrats in the recent national election

Ten months of primary and general election campaigning and you don't know what 'new ideas', good or bad, were proposed by the Democrats? I knew the Democrats' communication strategies were bad, but damn! Razz Anyway, in that case I don't know whether I can propose much here anymore that would still help in any way ...

I dunno, at random, from the Edwards campaign, "College for Everyone," a plan to provide students free tuition for their first year at a state or community college in exchange for ten hours of work per week? Or scholarships for prospective teachers who pledge to work in lower-income schools for five years? A $5,000 tax credit for first-time home buyers?

Or, if you're looking for a bigger picture rather than individual proposals, what about "wealth vs. work" - or, how the specifics of tax reform proposals translated into a differing vision: <copy/paste/edit>:

With the Bush tax cuts having shifted the proportional tax burden away from wealth-related income (by cutting taxes on capital gains, dividends, and inheritances) and onto workrelated income, Edwards claimed the administration has declared "a war on work", challenging Bush to explain why the middle class should pay higher taxes on their earned income than the wealthy pay on their investment income. Rather than taking the White House's bait and calling for a repeal of all the Bush tax cuts -- which include billions of dollars in lower- and middle-income reductions -- Edwards called for eliminating the cuts for the top 2 percent of Americans and raising the capital gains tax to 25 percent. This point fitted in with the overarching Democratic vision on tax reform, with its emphasis on "taxing wealth, not work". It proposed an alternative roadmap, in which tax breaks would focus on earned income and labour costs, which in turn would provide a much stronger incentive for creating new employment than Bush's tax cuts had yielded.

I dunno. That was just a totally random example. One that counts, imho, as an idea that would be more progressive / less reactionary than the Bush tax cuts and their overwhelming focus on, say, Hoover's constituency. But browsing through these here two links might yield you much more still:

John Edwards: Real Solutions For America, praised as the "meatiest" set of proposals from among those by the different candidates;

DLC: A New Agenda for the Next Decade

Foxfyre wrote:
But again, how about we get past "whose ideas' we are debating and try 'what ideas' are being debated for a change?

I thought we were debating the meaning (and proposed (ir)reconcilibality) of "progressive" and "conservatism", not whether either would be a good or a bad thing (we've gone so often around the block on that one that I doubt we'd come up with anything new.)
0 Replies
 
 

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