I suggest 'correct or remove' rather than 'charge' ... [that is a good suggestion]
Well, that's all consistent, if so remote of possibility that I'll mail you fifty bucks if you can find ANY case of this happening, ever.
So, I'll take it that you are not actually talking about something real, but rather, your personal anger at the prospect of it if it were real. I'm mad about it too.[you are correct]
Has that been my response to 'government's faulty actions'? An odd turn of events given this government has been, we understand, so free of faulty actions. Did you have a list handy?[I have previously identified in another thread in which we both participate what I believe to be the US government's faulty actions. However, for example, the invasion of countries which despite our protests permit terrorist encampments within their borders, is not one of them. I think a faulty action pertinent to this thread is our government's aid to colleges which do not correct or remove instructors/teachers/professors (left, right or whatever label) who villify students for student's expressed political views.]
OK, so you haven't been reading carefully. I'm guilty of the same thing now and again. I forgive you the failing.[thank you]
]As regards a false parallel, you remain remarkably unclear and unspecific and non-explanatory as to how the parallel above (you know, the anal rape by priests parallel) is false.
[anal rape is a false parallel because it deals with physical abuse--a crime--and not mental or intellectual abuse or intolerance of diverse opinions--not a crime, but only an ethical failing. The correction or removal of intellectual abusers, whether they be one, a dozen or a gross, can be done by the school without a criminal trial. Alternatively, instead of correction or removal, it can be reduced by simply having the school identify the intellectual abusers so that students (and/or their parents) can, without having to provide any justification whatsoever, be free to avoid or drop out of abuser classes without actual or threat of penalty. Also, the students are free of any stigma for having been former victims of such intellectual abusers]
Yet, even so, to then make the idiotic leap common to this thread and to the Horowitz folks, that therefore such molestation is rampant everytwhere and in need of a remedy of enforced or coerced placement of state or party chosen priests or atheists is deserving of derision.[Perhaps, I missed it! I thought Horowitz et al were first drawing attention to a problem they see, and then recommending how the problem might be solved voluntarily. As for the anal priest thing, that's not an equivalent paradigm for what Horowitz et al are actually recommending. The proper paradigm would be retiring criminal priests and replacing them with non-criminal priests (presumably neither of which are atheists). Replacing intellectually abusing professors, for example, with non-intellectual abusing professors, regardless of their political affiliations, is more akin to what is being recommended here by me and, I thought, Horowitz.]
Finally, as to my 'villification' of governments or posters...as it happens, I consider this present government likely the most vile western nation government in my lifetime. Last night I was at a party on Long Island with a couple of dozen professional folks about our age (50 -65) and let me tellya, my level of negative opinion of Bush and crowd was middle of the road. They are more than a little pissed off here that though it was their city (and they love it) that got hit, Bush has whored the tragedy. They find that, him, those around him, and what they are doing as despicable as do I.
And 'villification' of voices here? By which I assume you mean 'rudeness'...I have little patience for the stupidity of lazy reasoning, nor for failures to self-educate. I think a bunch of you guys are REALLY lousy citizens of both your country and of the whole community of humans. Manners constitute the very least of my concerns.
[Your lack of concern for the irrelevance here of your negative opinions on these things, and your inability to save them for a discussion in which they actually might be relevant, is why I criticized you. My criticism of your behavior in this particular thread stands unabated and undeflected! Your claim of "least of your concerns" appears contradicted by the effort (however modest you might think it is) that you invested in in making these last remarks.]
[I have previously identified in another thread in which we both participate what I believe to be the US government's faulty actions. However, for example, the invasion of countries which despite our protests permit terrorist encampments within their borders, is not one of them. I think a faulty action pertinent to this thread is our government's aid to colleges which do not correct or remove instructors/teachers/professors (left, right or whatever label) who villify students for student's expressed political views.]
[anal rape is a false parallel because it deals with physical abuse--a crime--and not mental or intellectual abuse or intolerance of diverse opinions--not a crime, but only an ethical failing. The correction or removal of intellectual abusers, whether they be one, a dozen or a gross, can be done by the school without a criminal trial. Alternatively, instead of correction or removal, it can be reduced by simply having the school identify the intellectual abusers so that students (and/or their parents) can, without having to provide any justification whatsoever, be free to avoid or drop out of abuser classes without actual or threat of penalty. Also, the students are free of any stigma for having been former victims of such intellectual abusers]
Perhaps, I missed it! I thought Horowitz et al were first drawing attention to a problem they see, and then recommending how the problem might be solved voluntarily. As for the anal priest thing, that's not an equivalent paradigm for what Horowitz et al are actually recommending. The proper paradigm would be retiring criminal priests and replacing them with non-criminal priests (presumably neither of which are atheists). Replacing intellectually abusing professors, for example, with non-intellectual abusing professors, regardless of their political affiliations, is more akin to what is being recommended here by me and, I thought, Horowitz.]
"I won't be impressed until 40 percent of our professors in universities are conservative," he tells NewsMax.
[Your lack of concern for the irrelevance here of your negative opinions on these things, and your inability to save them for a discussion in which they actually might be relevant, is why I criticized you. My criticism of your behavior in this particular thread stands unabated and undeflected! Your claim of "least of your concerns" appears contradicted by the effort (however modest you might think it is) that you invested in in making these last remarks.]
I do not accept the notion that the generally accepted label for my position or for the other guy's position is useful, let alone sufficient, for evaluating the merits of either position.
[..] What criteria shall we use to decide such a political issue? Assuming we disagree on this issue, unless we can agree on the criteria for
evaluating this issue, there is little point in our debating this issue.
Well in truth, in formal debate, the judge would give no points at all to the debater who simply insisted that his opponent had not proved his/her case without showing evidence that in fact his/her opponent had not proved his/her case. Generally each side is attempting to prove an opposite side of an issue.
... The point IS, what set of evidentiary circumstances allow you/I to make a knowledge claim about anything...and further, to then propose some 'remedy' to fix what we 'know'.
[Ok, I think I got it straight now. For my part, I truly cannot personally verify any alleged teacher/professorial intellectual abuse. My own experience way back in the olden days, is that I personally, despite trying many times, could not determine the political views (e.g., Democrat or Republican) of my teachers. My kids now with kids of their own have not encountered that abuse either. However, I can recommend two tactics to discourage such abuse when and if it occurs. First, allow parents and/or their kids on their own to freely move without penalty from teachers who they think are committing such abuse to teachers who they think are not. Second, require the feds to withhold educational aid funds from those institutions that make membership in a particular political party a prerequisite for hiring of and/or granting tenure to a teacher.]
No, not voluntarily. Coersively. It isn't "We see this and here is our evidence and we think it inappropriate and think you should change it." It is "We see this even if you don't and will act to impose legislation and funding controls until we achieve what we want." Note Fox's earlier suggestions on funding controls. Note your own. And what does Horowitz want?Quote:“I won’t be impressed until 40 percent of our professors in universities are conservative,” he tells NewsMax.
It is NOT about correcting a prof here or there who has bullied, it is about coerced placement of the politically-agreeable (to Horowitz) into universities.
[Pardon my current ignorance. If I were now convinced what you alleged here to be true is true, I too would be outraged. Personal political points of view must be kept out of the classroom, and also must be kept out of prerequisites for teacher hiring and/or teacher tenure.]
OK. I think you overmuch of a patriot, and I'm not a fan of patriotism. ... When you find yourself defending a party or government rather than a principle, you're in trouble.
[I think my patriotism is expressed as my devotion to certain principles that are often identified (rightly or wrongly) as American principles. Yes, I chose candidate A over candidate B, sometimes because I thought candidate A better than good candidate B. However, unfortunatly, most times I chose candidate A over candidate B because I thought candidate A to be not as bad as Candidate B.
I think the primary function of government ought to be securing what I think are the inallienable rights of people who also honor these same rights as the rights of others. I think people who are legally proven to dishonor these rights of others and/or who repeatedly declare their intention to dishonor these rights of others, forfeit their own rights. Furthermore, I think those who help secure the rights of those who dishonor these same rights, also forfeit their own rights.]
But on the other hand, you do set out to engage the logical and moral problems in all of these issues with some depth and consistency. For that, you get a special nod. [Thank you.][/b]
I dont think, for one, that the Dobsons and Scarboroughs have just taken to their right-PC whining because they were forced to, you know, by that evil Maureen Dowd. I see it more in the context of - the rhetorics of victim politics has worked great for the Reps in the 90s, just as it did wonders to mobilise minorities in the 70s/80s. The Gingrich '94 landslide was fuelled by the talk radio-driven myth of the threatened conservative / christian / white male, always put upon by them evil liberal coastal intellectual elite knowitalls. By now, of course, the Reps themselves are in control of government, Senate, House, most states, etc - but hey, the mentality still needs being milked - its what made the religious right, in particular, big. Hence the indignant outcry over every little incident.
Bring back the lash
Gary Younge
Monday January 10, 2005
The Guardian
Whatever happened to the lash? It once was the case that before there could be a backlash, there first had to be a lash. Before Margaret Thatcher's anti-trade union legislation in the 1980s, for example, there was first a period of trade union militancy in the 1970s. Before the Ku Klux Klan was formed in 1866, there was first the emancipation of the slaves following the end of the American civil war in 1865.
This did not necessarily make the backlash more palatable or justifiable. The backlash is something rightwing people do. Like "kempt hair" and "couth behaviour", references to a "leftwing backlash" are rare indeed.
But the notion that a backlash from the right should first be provoked by a lash from the left certainly made the backlash more logical. It was a function of the ebb and flow of the political tide. In order for reactionaries to react, radicals first had to act. So the lash did not only precede the backlash, it was the premise for it: not just a matter of sequence but consequence.
And while no one on the left necessarily liked it, everyone expected it and understood it for it what it was. For, like the call and response at a good Baptist service, the backlash had symmetry, if nothing else, on its side.
But at some stage the equilibrium got wildly out of synch. As the power and influence of the left have diminished over the past 20 years, the lash has all but disappeared; but somehow the backlash never seems to end.
Somewhere along the way those who once masqueraded as the leadership of the liberal left or who sought, at least, to confront the right, quite simply stopped making demands. Far from this being a strategic retreat in the face of the right's superior numbers and resources, it has turned into a full-scale meltdown.
Take last week's confirmation hearings of George Bush's nominee for attorney general, Alberto Gonzales. Gonzales helped orchestrate and approve a blueprint for torture that was later exposed in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and, by all accounts, Guantánamo Bay. He also described the Geneva convention's limitations on questioning prisoners as "obsolete" and "quaint".
Under interrogation, Gonzales developed a faulty memory on his involvement in both these matters and was evasive about many others. There is ample material here, you would think, for a reasonable liberal lash. A man seeking office who is connected to unseemly, brutal images that occurred as a result of an increasingly unpopular war seems fair game.
A leading Democrat on the Senate judiciary committee, Joseph Biden, stuck his teeth in by reassuring Gonzales that he would be confirmed regardless of his answers. Biden then went on to tell the nominee. "This is not about your intelligence, this hearing is not about your competence, it's not about your integrity, it's about your judgment and your candour. We're looking for candour, old buddy. I love you, but you're not very candid so far."
Biden's gentle prodding will no more protect him from rightwing accusations of being unpatriotic than John Kerry's vote for the war prevented Republicans from portraying him as weak on defence. The fact that the left did not make use of the lash does not stop the right from resorting to the backlash.
Indeed, even the relatively mild inquisition Gonzales underwent was enough for Republican senator John Cornyn to brand the hearing as "unnecessarily partisan, even cruel" and claim that "only in Washington would a good man get raked over the coals only for doing his job".
The problem here is not that Gonzales will go on to be confirmed - given their slender numbers in Congress, this is not something the Democrats can do much about. It is that with each failure to promote its principles and values, the liberal left ends up on the defensive, ceding the ideological foundations it needs to build any substantial comeback. As a result the national conversation ends up taking place almost entirely on the right's terms.
Once upon a time, those who assumed leadership of the liberal left described these capitulations as pragmatism. At some point, however, they became a dogma. In 1997 President Bill Clinton described his approach in a speech to the Democratic leadership council. "We had to go area by area to abandon those old false choices, the sterile debate about whether you would take the liberal or conservative positions, that only succeeded in dividing America and holding us back."
This is not a particularly American disease. At some point the Tories will return to power and start a backlash, and we will wonder where our own lash went. For the past 20 years leading social democrats around the world have been burying the terms "left" and "right" as though they were as obsolete and quaint to their own constituencies as the Geneva convention is to Gonzales's.
The trouble is they forgot to tell the right, which has carried on fighting for the interests of those it cares about most - the rich and powerful - even while the left has abandoned them.
Compare Clinton's speech a year after being re-elected to Bush's, just a day after November's election. "I'll reach out to everyone who shares our goals," said Bush. "I earned capital in the campaign, political capital. And now I intend to spend it. It is my style."
In the words of comedian John Stewart, before he starts on the capital he should first pay back the interest for the four previous years. But why should he? As Frederick Douglass, the abolitionist, once said: "Power concedes nothing without demand." Since liberals stopped demanding, the right has stopped conceding.
The absence of the lash simply changed the nature of the backlash. It is no longer an act of political retribution: the right has turned it into an art form.
First it finds an enemy - preferably a weak minority - gays, unmarried mothers, Muslims, the irreligious, international law or small countries that break international law, asylum seekers, Gypsies etc. In the inconvenient instance that a real enemy, no matter how exaggerated, cannot be found, it constructs one: the "liberal establishment", the "armies of political correctness", the "liberal media" or "feminazis". Then, with the enemy, real or invented, in place, it simply creates and inflates the crisis to suit, and bingo - the bespoke backlash. No lash required. Add venom and mix recklessly.
While the right's distortions, lies, scapegoating and cheating are all contemptible (and that is before we get to its actual politics), its chutzpah and determination in this respect are not. It has an agenda, and it sticks to it. It has a constituency, and it serves it. If the liberal left wants to be taken seriously, it will have to stand for more than office alone. It's time to bring back the lash.
Perhaps you're saying the same thing. "Disproving a case" = "showing evidence that [your] opponent had not proved his/her case".
My turn to bring an opinion piece ...
..."Conservatives adopt the identity politics they once scorned" ...
If the liberal left wants to be taken seriously, it will have to stand for more than office alone. It's time to bring back the lash.
blatham wrote:... The point IS, what set of evidentiary circumstances allow you/I to make a knowledge claim about anything...and further, to then propose some 'remedy' to fix what we 'know'.
[Ok, I think I got it straight now. For my part, I truly cannot personally verify any alleged teacher/professorial intellectual abuse. My own experience way back in the olden days, is that I personally, despite trying many times, could not determine the political views (e.g., Democrat or Republican) of my teachers. My kids now with kids of their own have not encountered that abuse either. However, I can recommend two tactics to discourage such abuse when and if it occurs. First, allow parents and/or their kids on their own to freely move without penalty from teachers who they think are committing such abuse to teachers who they think are not. Second, require the feds to withhold educational aid funds from those institutions that make membership in a particular political party a prerequisite for hiring of and/or granting tenure to a teacher.]
No, not voluntarily. Coersively. It isn't "We see this and here is our evidence and we think it inappropriate and think you should change it." It is "We see this even if you don't and will act to impose legislation and funding controls until we achieve what we want." Note Fox's earlier suggestions on funding controls. Note your own. And what does Horowitz want?Quote:"I won't be impressed until 40 percent of our professors in universities are conservative," he tells NewsMax.
It is NOT about correcting a prof here or there who has bullied, it is about coerced placement of the politically-agreeable (to Horowitz) into universities.
[Pardon my current ignorance. If I were now convinced what you alleged here to be true is true, I too would be outraged. Personal political points of view must be kept out of the classroom, and also must be kept out of prerequisites for teacher hiring and/or teacher tenure.]
OK. I think you overmuch of a patriot, and I'm not a fan of patriotism. ... When you find yourself defending a party or government rather than a principle, you're in trouble.
[I think my patriotism is expressed as my devotion to certain principles that are often identified (rightly or wrongly) as American principles. Yes, I chose candidate A over candidate B, sometimes because I thought candidate A better than good candidate B. However, unfortunatly, most times I chose candidate A over candidate B because I thought candidate A to be not as bad as Candidate B.
I think the primary function of government ought to be securing what I think are the inallienable rights of people who also honor these same rights as the rights of others. I think people who are legally proven to dishonor these rights of others and/or who repeatedly declare their intention to dishonor these rights of others, forfeit their own rights. Furthermore, I think those who help secure the rights of those who dishonor these same rights, also forfeit their own rights.]
But on the other hand, you do set out to engage the logical and moral problems in all of these issues with some depth and consistency. For that, you get a special nod. [Thank you.][/b]
ican I don't think there is anything here I disagree with. As it happens, I share with you and Lincoln the notion that the principles that stem from the notion of inalienable rights ought to be spread (a moral ought) to such lands where those principles have yet to find voice or acceptance. I just don't happen to think the Bush people are so motivated.
"A pox on both their houses!" Both so-called conservatives and so-called liberals accuse each other of doing exactly what they themselves are guilty of.
How about a political position that says: doing it the current way is not as good as doing it this new way, because ... ? Or how about: doing it the current way is better than doing it this new way, because ... ?
These days it is those most often characterized as 'conservative' who are pushing for tax reform, tax cuts, tort reform, health care reform, prescription drug coverage for seniors, renewed manned space exploration, increased funding for alternative fuels research, school vouchers to reinforce NCLB, medical savings accounts, faith-based initiatives to help people and communities, and some self-determination for social security. [..]
Conversely it is most often those characterized as 'liberal' who have their heels dug in and who throw cold water and try to throw up roadblocks to most of these initiatives while introducing few new ideas of their own.
To cut costs, business and public institutions have increasingly replaced full-time employees with temporary or apprentice workers who are not paid comparable wages or benefits. Nonstandard workers like these now make up about a quarter of the workforce. Labor unions have begun to organize them, but employers have objected, and the Bush board has taken their side--ruling, for example, that a union at an Oakdale, New York, long-term care facility cannot organize and represent both workers employed directly by the facility and workers who are employed by the facility but were sent there by a temporary staffing agency. It also blocked organizing of disabled janitors (because they are really engaged in rehabilitation rather than work) and artists' models (who are seen as independent contractors because they own their robes).
ican711nm wrote:whattt ???? dude, ican... i got nothin' but love for ya brother... but ya gotta start puttin' more of that glue on the model and less up your nose man. it's hurtin' ya...How about a political position that says: doing it the current way is not as good as doing it this new way, because ... ? Or how about: doing it the current way is better than doing it this new way, because ... ?![]()
But again, how about we get past "whose ideas' we are debating and try 'what ideas' are being debated for a change?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
One thing I believe with a passion is that compelling other people to make my living for me makes my inalienable rights less secure. Compelling others to increasingly make my living for me, makes my inalienabvle rights decreasingly secure
And when you factor in that there are more registered Democrats than Republicans overall, why you think the Democrats, who ruled almost exclusively for 60+ years, now find themselves in 'hopeless opposition'? Maybe it is because they continue to beat the drum for tested and failed policies and have nothing new to offer?
Nimh, I would be fascinated to know what 'new ideas' you think were proposed by the Democrats in the recent national election
But again, how about we get past "whose ideas' we are debating and try 'what ideas' are being debated for a change?