Diversity of Everything but Thought

1. Are American students really so very badly educated? (I don't really care if some of them are being challenged. Students seem to traditionally live to complain)

2. Has there been a proportional increase in the post-secondary student body similar to that seen in Canada?

Quote:

Between 1987-88 and 1998-99, Ontario experienced a 20% increase in full-time university enrollment, and a 50% increase in full-time college enrollment. Part-time enrolments decreased by 20% in the province's universities but increased 8% in the province's colleges.

http://www.millenniumscholarships.ca/factbook/en/on.html

It certainly seems, here at least, that part of the problem with the quality graduates, has to do with the number of students entering post-secondary education who have no proper place there.

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blatham wrote:

There's a very good reason universities ought to be 'liberal' and not 'conservative' which has nothing at all to do with politics other than consequentially.

yep. perhaps we've been chasing the wrong undomesticated fowl on this thread.

while it is improper (imho) for a teacher to spout away on politics in classes other than the ones i mentioned, or similar, the concept of "liberal campus" meant as a place of open thought and exploration is really what we would all hope for, right ?

what would be the point of any campus that taught that;

the earth is flat.

the sun revolves around the earth.

people with epilepsy are "possessed of the devil".

etc.

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McG, re: the two studies you posted about -- did you noitce that the second article actually doesn't make the point that liberal bias is present in the classroom?

But the more interesting and pertinent study is the survey of the students. That should give us a better indication of bias in teaching than the actual voting habits of a professor. But I couldn't find the survey data anywhere. What I did find was that 25 of the 50 schools that provided students for the survey were liberal arts colleges -- and were chosen for that fact. Do conservatives go to liberal arts colleges in search of a conservative perspective on liberal arts? Isn't it possible that stacking the deck with 50% liberal arts students might skew the results somewhat?

It's also clear that these surveys and studies being offered are commissioned and funded by Republican groups, one of them founded by Lynne Cheney. So clearly these surveys and studies were undertaken with a specific result in mind. Where I come from, we call that bias.

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Well, how about finding other sources and studies that might prove the opposite then? It should be easy enough to do.

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McGentrix wrote:

Well, how about finding other sources and studies that might prove the opposite then? It should be easy enough to do.

Easy enough to find studies that show the absence of liberal bias? What are you smoking? But we're back to where we were -- I don't need to prove the opposite because I'm not arguing the opposite. I'm arguing that none of the 5 different theses asserted so far have been proven, and that the studies relied upon either don't support the conclusion or are flawed themselves.

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So your argueing that the arguement is flawed, but the results are true? I'm not following you here...

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Foxfyre wrote:

They are few and far between in the public sector if any at all remain Drewdad.

There conservative schools in Texas, I assure you. Texas A&M is a fine institution and I would certainly not call it liberal. I found UT to be quite balanced, and (as stated above) the sciences dealt not at all with politics.

Foxfyre wrote:

And if conservative students are not getting a proper education, wouldn't it reasonably follow that nobody is?

Fox, why do you keep coming back to this? You haven't proven that "conservative students are not getting a proper education."

As a counter "argument:" If liberal students are getting a proper education, wouldn't it reasonably follow that everybody is?

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McGentrix wrote:

So your argueing that the arguement is flawed, but the results are true? I'm not following you here...

I believe he is saying that the burden of proof is upon those asserting that liberal professors are the cause poor higher education.

You have not shown that there is poor higher education. Let alone that a "liberal bias" is to blame for it.

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I merely assert that there are more liberal professors teaching in colleges these days. That has been supported by the documentation I offered. Whether someone wants to refute that documention as "biased" or whatever else term thet'd like to means very little without in turn provided evidence of that bias or documention refuting my points.

Whether higher education has suffered from this "liberalness" is debateable. Let's ask some of our professional atheletes who have received their educations in schools of higher learning. I hear that some of them can actually add!

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Drewdad writes

Quote:

I believe he is saying that the burden of proof is upon those asserting that liberal professors are the cause poor higher education.

You have not shown that there is poor higher education. Let alone that a "liberal bias" is to blame for it.

If you point out the one or two studies cited throughout this thread that do not make the specific case of liberal bias and ignore all the ones that do, you won't be convinced by anything anybody posts here I'm sure.

I have referenced the following several times. It is cited by a Mason University Dept. Head of long tenure as an expert economist and educator and apparently you don't accept it as proof either. I wonder what some of the liberals here need as proof that education is not up to snuff these days?

Quote:

A Zogby survey was commissioned by the National Association of Scholars (NAS) to compare the general cultural knowledge of today's college seniors to yesteryear's high school graduates. The questions for the survey were drawn from those asked by Gallup in 1955 covering literature, music, science, geography, and history. The results were reported in a NAS publication "Today's College Students and Yesteryear's High School Grads." It concludes that "Contemporary college seniors scored on average little or no higher than the high-school graduates of a half-century ago on a battery of 15 questions assessing general cultural knowledge."

A 1990 Gallup survey for the National Endowment of the Humanities, given to a representative sample of 700 college seniors, found that 25 percent did not know that Columbus landed in the Western Hemisphere before the year 1500; 42 percent could not place the Civil War in the correct half-century; and 31 percent thought Reconstruction came after World War II.

In l993, a Department of Education survey found that among college graduates 50 percent of whites and more than 80 percent of blacks couldn't state in writing the argument made in a newspaper column, use a bus schedule to get on the right bus, 56 percent could not calculate the right tip, 57 percent could not figure out how much change they should get back after putting down $3.00 to pay for a 60-cent bowl of soup and a $1.95 sandwich, and over 90 percent could not use a calculator to find the cost of carpeting a room. But not to worry. A 1999 survey taken by the American Council of Trustees and Alumni of seniors at the nation's top 55 liberal-arts colleges and universities) found that 98 percent could identify rap artist Snoop Doggy Dogg and Beavis and Butt-Head, but only 34 percent knew George Washington was the general at the battle of Yorktown.
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/04/decline.html

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McGentrix wrote:

Whether higher education has suffered from this "liberalness" is debateable. Let's ask some of our professional atheletes who have received their educations in schools of higher learning. I hear that some of them can actually add!

Boy, that's some fine reasoning right there.

A few (yes few, most athletes on scholarship cannot expect to make a living at their sport) college athletes do not have world-class educations and this is proof (PROOF!) of the faults of liberal professors?

I'm afraid I'm going to say you failed to convince me.

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so easy to parse, each and every factoid of "information" and such a total waste of time when citical thinking/evaluation is disallowed.

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I merely use tham as an example, not the rule.

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McGentrix wrote:

I merely use tham as an example, not the rule.

You could use yourself as an example, apparently. If inability to spell is an indication of poor education then why should we listen to you?

On the other hand, I don't think the occasional misspelled word (or failure to use a spell-checker) renders one incapable of critical thinking.

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DrewDad wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
I merely use tham as an example, not the rule.

You could use yourself as an example, apparently. If inability to spell is an indication of poor education then why should we listen to you?

On the other hand, I don't think the occasional misspelled word (or failure to use a spell-checker) renders one incapable of critical thinking.

If that's how you think, then why would you bother to point it out?

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Fox,

I do not find studies about "15 questions assessing general cultural knowledge" to be particularly persuasive.

I also do not believe a college should be teaching one how to calculate a tip.

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McGentrix wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
I merely use tham as an example, not the rule.

You could use yourself as an example, apparently. If inability to spell is an indication of poor education then why should we listen to you?

On the other hand, I don't think the occasional misspelled word (or failure to use a spell-checker) renders one incapable of critical thinking.

If that's how you think, then why would you bother to point it out?

Because it undermines your argument. You cannot seriously argue that spelling is representative of intelligence while misspelling a word.

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I both misspell and typo consistently but that's because I an a freakin' liberal educated at a state univeristy dominated by communists. Had I attened SMU I would speel better and trype just fin. Also I would think more clearly republican had I leanred to not-think by attending Bob Jones University. What's a guy to do?

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I do not believe I said anything about spelling. Also, do not mistake mis-typing with mis-spelling. I am a professed poor typer.

I find it possible that you would never be convinced that an over-dose of liberal professors in college could be detrimental to ones education and that many individuals have suffered because of it. It would not matter how many case studies were performed, polls were conducted or anecdotes made.

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McGentrix wrote:

I do not believe I said anything about spelling.

Whoops! You are correct. You specifically mentioned addition not spelling. I beg your pardon.

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