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Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 12:11 pm
And, with that empty rebuttal, we bring act 4 to an end.

Will there be an act 5, audience? Will Foxfyre provide a single shred of evidence that the theories she proposes are true, other than anecdotal or opinion? Stay tuned!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 12:12 pm
I almost wish I wasn't going on vacation.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 12:12 pm
Quote:
Are you offering up opinions as facts blatham?


Close - he's offering facts about people's opinions.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 12:15 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Are you offering up opinions as facts blatham?


Close - he's offering facts about people's opinions.

Cycloptichorn


Huh. I looked again and still saw only conjecture and opinion. No facts.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 12:17 pm
Cyclop I have to leave for an appontment. But in parting, I will say that I give you high marks when you focus on your subject and really do try to reason out an answer. I mark you down when you resort to personal insults and innuendo and think that constitutes legitimate debate. For your information, this thread is about diversity of thought. Among that diversity is a difference in debate styles and ways that people express themselves to make a point. You seem to wish to decide how that should be done. I long ago decided I would do it in the way I was most comfortable. If that doesn't suit you, then please feel free to criticize somebody else and just leave me to my own foolish ways.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 12:24 pm
Thanks, but I'll feel free to critcize anyone who's idea of 'debate style' is to put forth partisan opinion as fact, to argue with anecdotal evidence, to use shoddy logic, and then get all huffy when they are called out on it, including and especially you, Foxfyre. Those aren't 'styles' of debate, they are a sign of someone who doesn't know what the rules of a good debate are.

Can't take the heat? Stop proposing such ridiculous ideas as facts, and then acting all hurt when people point it out!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 12:29 pm
McG Wrote:
Quote:
Huh. I looked again and still saw only conjecture and opinion. No facts.


I see your point, but at least Blatham attempts to, here:

Quote:
But, what speaks against giving this claim any undue credibility are the facts of American educational history.

From the seventeen hundreds through to this day, the educational literature (or more accurately, the public/political pronouncements on education) forwards one notion more consistently than any other...that education is 'in jeopardy' or 'in crisis' or 'failing'. (See Richard Hofstadter's "Anti-Intellectualism in American Life", chapter titled Education or Schools...can't recall).



As I read it (though I could be wrong), the fact is that there have ALWAYS been the opinions that our education is going downhill. Blatham even tries to provide some evidence...

Though I guess it's just his opinion that the facts support the opin...., hell with it, you know what I mean.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:20 pm
I think that what is more disturbing than all this about liberal biasness with it's lack of supportable data to back any of it up is who behind this movement that foxfrye stands ready to throw her support behind. Thanks blatham, it makes some more sense now.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:28 pm
Hold the phone, are you suggesting that there ISN'T any liberal bias in the professorships of most university's and colleges? You're basing this on the fact that some people refuse to accept an op/ed as proof?

*egads!*
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:30 pm
Yep, that's what they're saying. I don't blame anyone for not accepting an op-ed for proof. I wouldn't either. But to dismiss all the research and studies cited in the op-ed pieces is way beyond illogical to me.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:40 pm
I will state (again) the flaws I see in your argument:

1. You have not proved that higher education is fundamentally flawed.
2. You have not proved that a liberal bias in the higher education system is what would cause such a flaw.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof; you have not supplied the proof.

Until you prove these two points, you will find plenty of people to point out that you have an opinion not a fact.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:41 pm
A recent survey issued by the Center for the Study of Popular Culture and the American Enterprise Institute reveals that the overwhelming majority of college professors are registered Democrats, and that they teach in disciplines where politics matters the most.
_____________________________________________________________
College students are telling on their professors, and what they say is that some cheating is going on, at least if you think it's cheating to teach just one side of political issues and use your classroom authority for purposes of indoctrination.

This information comes by way of a survey sponsored by the American Council of Trustees and Alumni. Researchers interviewed 658 students at 50 of the nation's most highly ranked colleges and universities and discovered the following:

Seventy-four percent reported that their profs say nice things about liberals. Forty-seven percent say they bash conservatives. Sixty-two percent said professors praised Sen. John Kerry during the recently completed presidential campaign. Sixty-eight percent reported uncomplimentary assessments of George W. Bush. Even in courses having nothing to do with politics, professors bring up politics, said 49 percent of the students. To get the grades you want, it pays to be on board with a professor's political ideas, said 29 percent of the students. Some 49 percent find campus panel discussions and other presentations on politics to be one-sided.

These are significant percentages. Although equally significant percentages of the interviewed students take contrary positions, it's not as if we lack widespread confirmation through other surveys, articles and books that the vast majority of college professors are liberal Democrats and that many of them favor their biases over objective instruction in the classroom.

The worst of it is not that America's professoriate has taken sides almost monolithically in the tug-of-war between Republicans and Democrats. The worst of it, some serious observers agree, is that so many professors on some campuses subscribe to and are trying to further a radically relativistic, subjectivist view of reality. It is a view in which all cultures are about the same except for one that sinks particularly low because of its racism, chauvinism, ethnocentrism, greed, corruption and outsized power of its government, namely the culture of the United States of America.

I know of this in part from a student who told me a few years ago about a college course on U.S. history that was almost exclusively focused on slavery, the killing of Indians, segregation and unfair treatment of women. Practically all societies have been guilty of such evils, an American difference being that we have been fixing our faults while our remarkable land has simultaneously offered a degree of liberty virtually unexampled in this world.

I recently heard a discussion featuring Victor Davis Hanson, a classicist, a superb thinker and writer and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, a West Coast think tank where I have been a media fellow. Hanson said Rome thrived when Romans thought it a wonderful thing to be Romans, and that it disintegrated when they no longer valued being Roman. He worried aloud that Americans no longer recognize how exceptional they are in history. A problem, he said, is that we are forever measuring ourselves against perfection instead of against other societies. Next to them we fare extremely well.

Colleges and universities should help cultivate an understanding of why it is blessed to be American and help us to avoid America's disintegration. A sign of how far we are from that goal is found in a review in a political science journal of several books, including one by William Bennett, former U.S. education secretary.

Bennett is quoted as having written in "Why We Fight" that on the Sunday after the terrorist attack of Sept. 11 there was a Pledge of Allegiance at his alma mater of Williams College that was attended by "two hundred students, numerous maintenance and cafeteria workers, the college president ... and exactly one professor."

We need more professors like that one, and there are a number, of course, but don't look for really huge numbers of conservatives to be awarded tenure from liberal-minded faculties or to thrive on campuses where they are a minority unprotected by the rules of tolerance that apply to other minority groups.

What we do have every right to expect, however, is for those professors who are liberal or who go further and embrace a multiculturalist, politically correct anti-Americanism to provide students with competing ideas.

"A sound education presents students with multiple perspectives and equips students to make up their own minds," says Anne Neal, president of the group that paid for the recent survey. Indeed.

It's the kind of education that gives truth a chance.
____________________________________________________________


College professors more often consider themselves Democrats than Republicans, according to data released last week by the National Association of Scholars.

The data came from two studies that attempted to measure the level of liberal bias believed to appear on college campuses across the country.

The most lopsided fields studied were anthropology and sociology, and the least lopsided was economics. The study showed that for the social sciences and humanities professors, the ratio averaged between 8-to-1 and 9-to-1 with a liberal slant.

With the liberal reputation of the University, the new information only adds to a long-running debate of whether the political views of professors affect the learning environment.

Stephen Marshall, assistant professor of government at the University, believes his colleagues might have a tendency to have a liberal bias, but they don't show it in their teaching.

"By and large, college professors tend to be more liberal," said Marshall. "That has to do with commitments to secular ways of looking at the world rather than religious or traditional conceptions of the world."

People with more traditional conceptions of the world tend to have more conservative views, he said.

Whatever the political leanings of their professors, the student body has a more equal representation than other schools, he said.

"It's been my experience that there's a much greater parity between liberal students and conservative students at the University," Marshall said. "I'm surprised at how well-represented conservative ideals are at UT."

The popular idea that the University is a liberal campus is somewhat of a misconception, said John Pruett, history senior and spokesman for UT Watch.

Even if a professor has a liberal leaning, they don't necessarily share their viewpoints with or try to influence their students, he said.

"I've walked by the professor parking lots, and there were a lot of [John] Kerry stickers, but I don't think they were all, 'Vote for Kerry,' in class," he said. "I would say that, generally, professors haven't engaged in politics here." Continued...
_____________________________________________________________

There are lots of other studies and polls and such if you merely spend the time looking for them. I thought many of you were merely joking when you argued against the idea that there were more liberals teaching at the college level than conservatives. I thought that was common knowledge.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:45 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
... As one of our A2K somewhat left of center members...


btw, thanks for noticing that i'm more of a middle of the road kinda guy. i can't remember, but was it to you that i described my thoughts as "chinese menu politics" ??

:wink:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:48 pm
I don't think so DTOM; you're just one 'not quite conservative' member that I especially appreciate. Smile
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:49 pm
Thanks for those postings McG.

Here's another from the WSJ that is instructive and further pulls together the correlation between liberalism on college campuses and that being a problem for conservative students.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110005976
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:54 pm
McGentrix wrote:
There are lots of other studies and polls and such if you merely spend the time looking for them. I thought many of you were merely joking when you argued against the idea that there were more liberals teaching at the college level than conservatives. I thought that was common knowledge.


I don't disagree about the professors leaning liberal. I met plenty of the type when I was in school.

Although my experience (at the University of Texas, where your last article is from) closely resembles this:
Quote:
"It's been my experience that there's a much greater parity between liberal students and conservative students at the University," Marshall said. "I'm surprised at how well-represented conservative ideals are at UT."

The popular idea that the University is a liberal campus is somewhat of a misconception, said John Pruett, history senior and spokesman for UT Watch.

Even if a professor has a liberal leaning, they don't necessarily share their viewpoints with or try to influence their students, he said.

"I've walked by the professor parking lots, and there were a lot of [John] Kerry stickers, but I don't think they were all, 'Vote for Kerry,' in class," he said. "I would say that, generally, professors haven't engaged in politics here."


I certainly saw more political discussions in English and history classes than I did in my engineering, German, or chemistry classes. But then again, that's what those classes are for.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:54 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Yep, that's what they're saying. I don't blame anyone for not accepting an op-ed for proof. I wouldn't either. But to dismiss all the research and studies cited in the op-ed pieces is way beyond illogical to me.


No offense, Fox, but that's bullshit and you know it. Knowing that your argument has been ripped to shreds, the only way you feel like you can win is to strawman us with that 'you're saying there's no liberal bias at all' argument. It's malarkey and you know that it is.

Quote:
What's missing in this thread is a little exactness. Foxfyre likes to sum it up like this: conservatives think a bias exists and liberals don't. In actuality we've acknowledged that there is probably a bias in the social sciences


Quote:
Just thought that maybe it's time for someone to clarify the prevailing opposition to Foxfyre's opening article and argument. Most here have acknowledged that Democrats outnumber Republicans in most American universities' faculty. Most have acknowledged that there would be a perceived bias in the social sciences. I googled several variations of 'liberal bias engineering science' and came up with nada.

The opposition comes to the statement that the bias prevents adequate education. What's missing is a demonstration of how this perceived bias actually negatively effects students, especially conservative ones, other than forcing them to hear a point of view other than the one they were brought up listening to. And that's where the argument falls short.



Quote:
While I do think that instruction in the social sciences and humanities leans left, I don't know how politics finds its way into the 'hard sciences' mentioned in the article. Any ideas there?


Those are just mine. Going through the thread for about 5 minutes I saw similar acknowledgments from Steppenwolf, Cyclop, DTOM, and candidone1. Furthermore, the studies were addressed, not dismissed, and they don't support the conclusion being put forth. I think that's the fourth time I've had to say that. At some point you are going to have to quit recycling strawmen.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:57 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Thanks for those postings McG.

Here's another from the WSJ that is instructive and further pulls together the correlation between liberalism on college campuses and that being a problem for conservative students.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110005976


Fox, I thought you were arguing that a liberal bias is bad for all of higher education, not just conservative students.

There are plenty of campuses that are friendly to conservative students, if that is what you are looking for.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 02:00 pm
They are few and far between in the public sector if any at all remain Drewdad. And if conservative students are not getting a proper education, wouldn't it reasonably follow that nobody is?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 02:00 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
They are few and far between in the public sector if any at all remain Drewdad. And if conservative students are not getting a proper education, wouldn't it reasonably follow that nobody is?


Word.
0 Replies
 
 

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