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Uh Oh... N. Korea troubles

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2004 11:57 am
Asherman wrote:
Folks inside the Intelligence Community have thought about this, but it has always seemed only a remote possibility. Perhaps we should revisit the notion.


From what I understand, the visitation may have been under way for a while now.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2004 11:59 am
I'm pretty sure the PRC variation is being thought inside the tent. I was suggesting that those outside might like to consider the notion.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2004 12:01 pm
Asherman wrote:
How would the world react if the PRC were to suddenly occupy the DPRK?

I, for one, would breath a giant sigh of relief. That wouldn't be my first choice... but the idea could grow on me. At least the security aspects of the NK problem would be solved. I wonder what the South Koreans would think of that development? Certainly talks with China would be better than talks with Kim.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2004 12:03 pm
I, for one, am almost as wary of China as I am of North Korea.

One or two policy shifts and we could be in a lot of trouble with China...


Cycloptichorn
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2004 12:12 pm
I wondered how this development would play when I read it in the paper this morning. China's in, South Korea's in, the U.S. said no thanks.

Quote:
Prime Minister Paul Martin says he scored a touchdown, not a field goal, on his proposal to form an "L-20" group of world leaders to deal with humanitarian crises around the world.

Martin suggested that the United Nations, normally charged with such issues, is too slow to move in cases like Darfur, Sudan, where 70,000 people have died since March in a civil conflict.

"The UN security council is prepared to debate for months whether what is happening in Darfur is genocide," Martin said. "It makes no sense -- people won't put up with it."

Martin pitched his proposal to other leaders attending the weekend APEC summit in Santiago, Chile. The idea was rebuffed by U.S. President George Bush, but met with favour from European and Asian leaders.

The new L-20 would gather the G8 countries and the leaders of about 12 other emerging economic powers like India, China, Brazil and South Korea.

Martin, who will travel to Sudan this week, spoke to reporters at length Sunday about the need for reform of the UN and other world bodies.

He said countries need a more functional forum to communicate with each other, and that the UN needs an expanded mandate to protect people from violence.

The L-20, Martin said, would also deal with issues such as when to halt and re-start air travel during a pandemic.

Although APEC (The Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation) was founded in 1989 to deal with trade issues, the focus has shift in recent years beyond money matters to global security and terrorism.


the touchdown reference has to do with the Grey Cup being played yesterday (kinda our Super Bowl)

link
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2004 12:39 pm
The PRC hasn't gotten a lot of public attention lately, but it remains one of the greatest threats to world peace. Even if the government of the PRC were to abandon its aggressive stance re. "lost Chinese Provinces", it would still be very dangerous. Here are a few reasons:

A. The PRC has the world's largest population. Birth rates are high, while infant and overall mortality rates have been reduced. That means the population is going to continue to balloon for the foreseeable future. Efforts to control population by draconian means was pretty much a failure, or only a partial success. Cultural and individual preference for sons resulted in higher than normal female mortality. Today there is an gender imbalance in the young adult cohort. We can probably expect some serious social stresses as it becomes very difficult for males to find females to marry.

B. The resources within the PRC are insufficient to sustain growth. The agricultural lands have been utilized for at least three thousand years, and production is more likely to fall than increase. Much of China is only lightly settled because the environment is so difficult. Empty deserts where a few inches of rain each decade makes up a large part of the interior. Most people live, as they always have done, along the four major river systems, or within a hundred miles of the ocean. There are no known large deposits of petroleum or natural gas, and the mineral ores have been mined for thousands of years leaving little high-grade left to exploit. The infrastructure of the PRC is also primitive comparted with the developed nations. Good roads with high carrying capacity are rare, and often in disrepair. Civil aviation in the PRC is very limited, and only recently has the communications net begun to show much improvement.

The result of A and B is that ever greater demands are being made on a system with ever decreasing resources to meet the demand. At some point, breakdown is almost inevitable, and that has grave implications for the rest of the world. Famine and flood are extemely common themes in Chinese history. Its not a matter of "if", only a matter of "when".

C. The PRC military establishment. The military plays a large role in ruling the PRC. Political and economic reforms may provide some challenge to the power-elite of which the Military is a major player. The military is very large, especially in infantry. Recent missile technology gives the PRC nuclear threat a very long reach. The navy and conventional air forces are more limited in their capability, but they would still be very potent adversaries. One of the means by which the gender imbalance has been dealt with has been to maintain a very large infantry army. Frustrated young men with guns is almost as dangerous as carrying nitroglycerin into a steel mill. If things were to begin going very wrong inside the PRC, it has the capability of going to extreme violence very quickly. Famine inside the PRC would be a direct threat to the rice producing region along the Southwest Pacific rim.

D. The PRC is at risk for a major epidemic with high mortality outcomes. Poor sanitation coupled with a weak medical infrastructure is always a threat. Almost every viral flu mutation originates in Southwestern China where people and their livestock live in close proximity to wild jungle creatures. A serious outbreak of disease with a high mortality in the PRC could destabilize the government, kill millions and threaten every population in the world.

The PRC is a major threat to the world. It's a sleeping volcano, that should be watched carefully and handled with care.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2004 12:41 pm
Quote:
The Chinese claims in Korea are no worse than those the PRC used in justification for its occupation of Tibet. How would the world react if the PRC were to suddenly occupy the DPRK?


Whatever's going on, the fact that China most likely wouldn't want ROK or US intelligence types getting any peeks at files in Pyongyang would be justification enough, no?

I keep hearing it's China we should be leaning on to get the job done.

Interesting times we live in.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2004 12:52 pm
Flashback Alert
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2004 01:20 pm
Thank you Timber, I must have missed the original posting. Generally, I try to leave the PRC out of the equation when talking about Korea with laymen. The discussion almost always spirals off into paranoia. Justified perhaps, but not very useful in trying to understand what is going on.

The thing is there have been several things happening in the last six months or so that draw our attention to the PRC and its possible intentions. Capability is one thing, intentions another ... and Americans generally really, really dislike our involvment in HUMINT, or military continguency planning. Oh well...
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2004 12:41 am
Still dunno what's cookin' but the pot keeps bubblin' - this just in:
Quote:
AFP/ChannelewsAsia: Kim Jong-Il badges vanish from North Korean chests
25 November 2004 1254 hrs

SEOUL : Badges depicting North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il, a key symbol of his personality cult, are disappearing from peoples' chests in the communist country.



South Korea's Unification Ministry confirmed that lapel badges of Kim are no longer being worn by North Koreans travelling from the Stalinist state to China on official business.

In the past, they wore either a badge portraying Kim or a similar badge portraying his father, the Stalinist state's founder Kim Il-Sung who died in 1994.

"North Koreans travelling to and from China who formerly wore the badge of either Kim Il-Sung or Kim Jong-Il on their chests, have stopped wearing the Kim Jong-Il badge," Unification Ministry spokeswoman Yang Jong-Hwa told AFP, citing an internal report from the ministry's information analysis bureau.

"They are wearing only the Kim Il-Sung badge."

Ten years after his death the elder Kim is still revered in North Korea where he is frequently described as president for eternity.

But the pervasive personality cult built around his son appears to be shrinking.

Reports of the disappearing lapel badges follow recent confirmation that Kim Jong-Il's portraits have vanished from key sites visited by foreigners in Pyongyang.

The Unification Ministry is still analyzing the nature and significance of these changes, Yang said.

Media reports in South Korea said the phasing-out of the Kim Jong-Il badges was widespread and affected business people, diplomats and other North Koreans who come into contact with foreigners.

"We learned recently that North Koreans at the country's foreign missions and trading companies, as well as those guiding foreigners inside the North are not wearing the Kim Jong-Il badges," an unnamed Seoul official told the Seoul-based JoongAng Ilbo.

The official said Kim Jong-Il himself ordered the Mansudae Art Studio, the North's main producer of propaganda materials, to stop manufacturing his badges late last year.

He said North Koreans were told to take off their Kim Jong-Il badges for the commemoration of the 10th anniversary of Kim Il-Sung's death in July this year.

The apparent downsizing of the Kim cult of personality has led to speculation that changes may be taking place in the power structure of the tightly controlled communist country.

But Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Wu Dawei on Wednesday said the Stalinist state was stable and big changes were not imminent.

"The politics are stable, the economy is developing and the leaders are thinking seriously about economic reform," Wu Dawei told a briefing in Beijing as he described his September visit to Pyongyang.

Choson Sinbo, run by the pro-Pyongyang General Association of Korean Residents in Japan, said the measures reflected the "noble will of General Kim Jong-Il who wants to hold up only President Kim Il-Sung aloft."

Analysts said it it is virtually impossible to confirm exactly what is going on inside the secretive nation.

Kim's portraits have long been ubiquitous in homes, offices and public buildings across North Korea, where they have hung prominently beside a picture of his late father.

The junior Kim took power when his father, who founded the hermit nation, died in July, 1994.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2004 12:48 am
Well, there's a lot of rumour going on:

Quote:
24 Nov 2004 06:04 GMT China Denies Reports It Moved Troops To N Korean Border

Copyright © 2004, Dow Jones Newswires

BEIJING (AP)--China denied Wednesday it has moved thousands of troops to its border with North Korea, rejecting suggestions of possible political instability in its communist ally and saying economic reforms there are working.

Vice Foreign Minister Wu Dawei said South Korean media reports that 10,000 Chinese troops were preparing for prolonged deployment along the North Korean border, perhaps in anticipation of political turmoil, were false.

"Such a report is completely groundless and unreasonable," Wu said at a news briefing. "There is political stability and economic development, and the government and leaders are thinking seriously about economic reform.

"In September, I paid a visit to that country and I found huge changes," Wu added. "The life of the North Korean people has been improved markedly. From what I saw and heard, I was deeply impressed."

His comments followed unconfirmed reports last week that North Korean leader Kim Jong Il's portraits had been removed from public places, an unusual development because the dictator is the focus of an all-encompassing cult of personality. Pyongyang said the pictures are still hanging.

Tens of thousands of North Koreas have poured into China in recent years to escape chronic food shortages and political repression in their isolated, Stalinist homeland.

China also said Wednesday it asked Pyongyang to do more to restrict North Korean asylum seekers from crossing into China, and called on South Korea to give refuge to fewer of them.

Beijing is particularly alarmed by the hundreds of North Koreans who have sought refuge in diplomatic missions in the Chinese capital, as they seek passage to South Korea.

Wu said the South Korean Embassy alone had an estimated 130 North Korean asylum-seekers.

"Yesterday I discussed this issue with the South Korean ambassador, and we also made a request that North Korea take measures to restrict the illegal entering into China by their nationals," Wu said.

"We also urge South Korea to take measures to impose restrictions on the flow of those people to South Korea," he added.

China has allowed most fleeing North Koreans to travel to South Korea in cases that become public, despite a treaty with Pyongyang obliging it to send them home.

(END) Dow Jones Newswires
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 09:04 am
If North Korea Collapses....

By Jason Lim

With each passing day, it seems more and more likely that the current North Korean regime's days are numbered. Suspicious railroad explosions, the recent purge of a powerful relative of Kim Jong Il and an exodus of upper class elites all indicate a regime on the verge of a breakdown.
    
This means America should not limit her strategic perspective only to the nuclear issue but should also prepare for a possible North Korean implosion. What we do in the immediate aftermath of North Korea's collapse will dictate what we can do in this vital region for a long time to come.

The worst long-term scenario for America is that the Chinese will take the initiative and trigger an internal coup that would overthrow Kim Jong Il and replace his cabal with a Beijing?friendly military dictatorship. It would truly be a foreign policy disaster for America to allow the Chinese to do this, for it would help China establish hegemony over vast stretches of north Asia.
    
It cannot be denied that China represents the biggest challenge to America's primacy in economy, technology, industry and international influence. According to recent New York Times feature stories, Chinese economic and cultural influence is supplanting America's in many regions of Asia. Chinese ambition to dominate much if not all of Asia is evident, as proven by official policies aimed at purposely misinterpreting local histories around its border regions in order to justify a possible Chinese territorial takeover in the future.

China has a history of such actions. For example, China claims that Tibet is now part of China because Tibet was part of the original Mongolian empire founded by Genghis Khan. According to the same logic, half of Eastern Europe should be China's.
    
A far more urgent example is the Northeast Asia Project backed by the state-run China Academy of Social Sciences. With funding in the billions of dollars and spanning over 5 years and counting, this supposedly academic project researching the history of the northeast region of China suddenly claims that the most important parts of ancient Korean history are actually Chinese. China claims that Koguryo (B.C. 37-A.D. 668) and Palhae (698-926), both ancient kingdoms of the Korean people that largely occupied what is now Manchuria and North Korea, were actually Chinese vassal states.

The main reason for these patently false claims is obvious. China wants to safeguard her interests and extend her influence in northeast Asia. Most assume that the two Koreas will be unified once North Korea collapses. However, a more likely possibility is for North Korea to be absorbed by China. With North Korea currently dependent on China for many of its basic necessities including fuel, the absorption process could actually be very smooth and natural. Further, in order to justify a full absorption, China can conveniently point to the "academic" research by the Northeast Project team that purports to prove that Manchuria and North Korea were originally Chinese to begin with. However, one has to wonder why China would want to absorb North Korea and its massive problems.
    
One reason is the border security issue: massive number of North Korean refugees streaming across the Yalu River would create difficult socioeconomic disruptions in the region. A more important reason can be found in the 2 million ethnic Koreans living in Manchuria. In fact, the Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture borders on North Korea. If the two Koreas were to be unified under South Korea's leadership, then a unified Korea that shares America's democratic values and entrepreneurial spirit would exert a strong sociocultural influence in large parts of Manchuria through its common ethnic ties just across the border. It would necessarily compete with Chinese political control. The Chinese absorption of North Korea, therefore, would provide China with a buffer zone against American influence. Also, unencumbered Chinese access to North Korea's minerals, labor and ports would fuel China's ever-growing economy. Through the calculated distortion of history, China is therefore being proactive against scenarios on the Korean peninsula it dislikes.
    
Furthermore, a strong leadership from a unified Korea could influence not only the Chinese?Koreans, but also the Koreans in the former Soviet Union. Significant numbers of ethnic Koreans live in former Soviet Republics, with Uzbekistan alone being home to 1.2 million Koreans, comprising 4.7 percent of the nation's total population. Because of these ethnic ties, South Korea is the second largest import partner with Uzbekistan after Russia. Moreover, Mongolia's ethnic makeup is almost identical to that of Koreans: Koreans actually consider their genetic ancestry to originate in Mongolia.
    
When you examine the ethnic Korean distribution in Asia, you will notice a geographical axis that runs along the border between China and Russia. That presents America with an interesting opportunity. A strategically-located ethnic Korean axis strongly influenced by a unified Korea with close American ties offers a unique opportunity to not only check the Chinese hegemony but also to extend further influence into this all?important region and make sure that any dawning "Asian Century" also includes America. The 2 million-strong Korean American community can be utilized as a natural bridge to this ethnic Korean axis.
    
It is vital that American foreign policy not be blinded by the short-term nuclear issue in northeast Asia. Long-term national interests and strategic options must also be seriously considered.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 09:15 am
Interesting read, JW. Thanks!
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 09:25 am
Yer welcome, O'Bill. What do you think? Is Lim being overly optimistic, do you think? Regardless, I suppose it's never too early to start thinking about the implications if the rumors are true.

Have yourself a merry little Christmas Smile
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 09:50 am
Don't know. As I've said before, though, I'd rather China than Kim anyway so in my book that would be a win/win. That fuzzy geography seems a bit of a stretch too. Certainly Korea's claim over North Korea is more compelling than China's. I don't know if we'd play economic hardball directly with China over it or not, but I'd like to think we would. Besides, it's not like South Korea is a puppet state of the U.S. anyway. Fears of a North/South unification strengthening the U.S., cater more to paranoia than anything else. Mostly, I'd just like to hear some credible news of Kim's demise. That monster needs to go. Sad
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:26 am
Actually, nothing new in the Lim article.

Korea was a semi-autonomous province of China until its hold was weakened by the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-95. Manchu China (Ching dynasty) was in decline and being carved by the Colonial powers of Europe, and Japan was modernizing and beginning to look outward. Japan tried to pry Korea from Chinese control. It won the war, but the status of Korea remained unclear. Russia, which was gobbling up Asia as fast as it could in search of a warm water port on the Pacific, also wanted to absorb Korea. After the Boxer Rebellion of 1900, China's hold over Korea became almost a deadletter, and the competition between Russia and Japan for control increased. That led to the Russo-Japanese War of 1904. At the end of that war, Korea became independent and remained so until the Japanese invaded before the general outbreak of WWII. Japanese occupation was especially brutal in Korea. Koreans were enslaved, exported to work in war industries, indiscriminately murdered/executed, and made sex-slaves to the Japanese army. It was virtually the last foreign soil given up by Imperial Japan. They left little behind.

Kim Il-Sung with the aid of Stalin set-up the DRPK after the war, but was prevented from taking over the whole penninsula by the presence of U.S. troops. He turned North Korea into one of the most oppressive Stalinist States in the world, and invaded South Korea (1950-53). That war has not ended, it has only lain dormant for fifty years.

It is very hard to know what is going on in the DPRK. We do know that Kim Jong-Il is the head of a very strong personality cult and that he appears to be fully in control of both the political machinery and the military. Jong-Il is known to be erratic, but he is not crazy nor suicidal. Unexplained policy changes are not terribly unusual for Jong-Il. We can be pretty certain that his top priorities have always been: (1) regime survival, and (2) reunification of Korea under the complete domination of the DPRK. Jong-Il appears to be in good health for a man in his sixties. He probably intends succession to devolve upon one of his three known sons, and there is no known opposition to Jong-Il's will known to exist within the DPRK. There have from time-to-time been signs that the DPRK is on the verge of radical change over the past fifty years, nothing has ever come of it.

China's interest in Korea isn't new, and Chinese "interference" into korean affairs would be neither novel, nor unexpected. It is a contingency that both the ROK and the United States has considered, and it would be regarded as a serious event if China directly intervened in the DPRK. Actually, the danger of outside intervention into North Korea has always been greater from the PRC than from the U.S. However, its much easier to be alarmed about those terrible Americans than the Chinese. Oh well.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:32 am
Asherman wrote:

Quote:
He probably intends succession to devolve upon one of his three known sons,


I think you're most likely right. Most of what I've read indicates exactly that.

Still...like O'Bill, I think the monster needs to go and will continue to hope it's sooner rather than later.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:54 am
Just wondering, what you all think about the missing portraits - most of you were sure a couple of weeks ago that "something" was going on ...

And what do you think about what Selig Harrison said about a fortnight ago, namely that the US government exaggerated the threat from North Korea's nuclear programs, just as it manipulated intelligence about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:59 am
Soul is within artillery range of the North Korean lines. Any strike on the north would result in a massive response on the city. I suspect the South Koreans would have something to say about the US attempts at "decapitation".
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 12:05 pm
Its unlikely thea that Kim Jong-il will step down willingly. A coupe is only a little less unlikely. Jong-Il's health seems to better than my own, and I can reasonably expect to live another 5-20 years. What does that leave us?

Jong-Il might abdicate in favor of one of his three sons if his health really went south, or under some circumstances. That is unlikely, but possible. That might open the door to some change in DPRK policies, again unlikely that radical change would occur. If Jong Il were to suddenly die, there would probably be some political turmoil in the North, and the danger of Chinese intervention would probably increase.l The ROK would probably not take the initiative to intervene in the North, unless the PRC openly was involved. I think the US and the UN would offer assistance, but probably would pretty much sit on their hands. The US might be drawn into conflict if the PRC was overtly involved.

I doubt that the US will take a proactive stance vis a vis the DPRK unless circumstances change pretty radically from what they are today. The nuclear issue is hot, but the DPRK hasn't tested a weapon and has such limited delivery capability that we can afford some restraint given other commitments in the world. Direct Chinese interference in the DPRK political structure would be a serious matter and very destabelizing. We should not wish for that to happen, no matter how much we dislike Kim Jong-Il and his regime. He will fall, be patient and hope that it can be accomplished without major bloodshed. No one want a major conflict in East Asia, but it may come to that at some point. At least this administrations reputation for taking tough stands may prevent either foolish moves on the part of either the DPRK, or the PRC.
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