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Evidence Mounts That The Vote May Have Been Hacked

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:58 pm
Harper wrote:
Again, a reponse with no substance and without even reading the information posted. What did Twain say about remaining silent...


I read. Here's my response:

Quote:
Author's note: Given the timeliness of the subject matter, I have released this paper despite not having the opportunity to use normal acedemic safeguards. If you have any questions or comments, please write. Likewise, if you publish or post it to web pages, electronic bulletin boards, or other electronic archives, please let me know.

I have tried to be as rigorous as possible in my data collection, review, and analysis and I believe it compares favorably to the vast majority of commentary in the public domain. To hold it to an acedemic standard of rigor, however, requires extensive peer review; this work has barely begun to be challenged by - and improved from - this peer review process. I will revise this paper as legitimate objections are raised, as more data becomes available, and as I learn more.


The first thing he does is acknowledge his report may be unreliable.

And did you let Dr. Freeman know you posted his findings here? Confused

Quote:
The data I use for this analysis were available apparently only because a computer glitch allowed apparently "uncallibrated" data (not yet "corrected" to conform to announced vote tallies) to remain on the CNN website until approximately 1:30 AM election night. At that time CNN substituted data "corrected" to conform to reported tallies.


So, putting aside my inherent suspicions about exit poll data -- and there are real problems with accepting the accuracy of same -- this guy acknowledges his report is unreliable, and points out he used "uncallibrated" data that he pulled from CNN. Rolling Eyes

All he did was take some web screen captures from the CNN website, then did a statistical anaysis of the data. Did YOU read his report?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 11:00 pm
As Timber said: "Gotta admire your pluck."
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 11:11 pm
... it's only when the "pluck" crosses the line into arrogance- on EITHER side- that it becomes insufferable.

The strutting, boasting and gloating are odious.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 11:16 pm
Rolling Eyes
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 11:31 pm
The New York Times:

The Internet was flooded with suggestions of voter fraud

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2004/11/11/politics/12theory_graph.gif
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 11:37 pm
Also The New York Times:

Quote:
Vote Fraud Theories, Spread by Blogs, Are Quickly Buried

he e-mail messages and Web postings had all the twitchy cloak-and-dagger thrust of a Hollywood blockbuster. "Evidence mounts that the vote may have been hacked," trumpeted a headline on the Web site CommonDreams.org. "Fraud took place in the 2004 election through electronic voting machines," declared BlackBoxVoting.org.

In the space of seven days, an online market of dark ideas surrounding last week's presidential election took root and multiplied.

But while the widely read universe of Web logs was often blamed for the swift propagation of faulty analyses, the blogosphere, as it has come to be known, spread the rumors so fast that experts were soon able to debunk them, rather than allowing them to linger and feed conspiracy theories. Within days of the first rumors of a stolen election, in fact, the most popular theories were being proved wrong - though many were still reluctant to let them go.

Much of the controversy, called Votergate 2004 by some, involved real voting anomalies in Florida and Ohio, the two states on which victory hinged. But ground zero in the online rumor mill, it seems, was Utah.

"I love the process of democracy, and I think it's more important than the outcome," said Kathy Dopp, an Internet enthusiast living near Salt Lake City. It was Ms. Dopp's analysis of the vote in Florida (she has a master's degree in mathematics) that set off a flurry of post-election theorizing by disheartened Democrats who were certain, given early surveys of voters leaving the polls that were leaked, showing Senator John Kerry winning handily, that something was amiss.

The day after the election, Ms. Dopp posted to her Web site, www.ustogether.org, a table comparing party registrations in each of Florida's 67 counties, the method of voting used and the number of votes cast for each presidential candidate. Ms. Dopp, along with other statisticians contributing to the site, suggested a "surprising pattern" in Florida's results showing inexplicable gains for President Bush in Democratic counties that used optical-scan voting systems.

The zeal and sophistication of Ms. Dopp's number crunching was hard to dismiss out of hand, and other Web users began creating their own bar charts and regression models in support of other theories. In a breathless cycle of hey-check-this-out, the theories - along with their visual aids - were distributed by e-mail messages containing links to popular Web sites and Web logs, or blogs, where other eager readers diligently passed them along.

Within one day, the number of visits to Ms. Dopp's site jumped from 50 to more than 500, according to site logs. On Nov. 4, that number tipped 17,000. Her findings were noted on popular left-leaning Web logs like DailyKos.com and FreePress.org. Last Friday, three Democratic members of Congress - John Conyers Jr. of Michigan, Jerrold Nadler of New York and Robert Wexler of Florida - sent a letter to the Government Accountability Office seeking an investigation of voting machines. A link to Ms. Dopp's site was included in the letter.

But rebuttals to the Florida fraud hypothesis were just as quick. Three political scientists, from Cornell, Harvard and Stanford, pointed out, in an e-mail message to a Web site that carried the news of Ms. Dopp's findings, that many of those Democratic counties in Florida have a long tradition of voting Republican in presidential elections. And while Ms. Dopp says that she and dozens of other researchers will continue to analyze the Florida vote, the suggestion of a link between certain types of voting machines and the vote split in Florida has, at least for now, little concrete support.

Still, as visitors to Ms. Dopp's site approached 70,000 early this week, other election anomalies were gaining traction on the Internet. The elections department in Cleveland, for instance, set off a round of Web log hysteria when it posted turnout figures on its site that seemed to show more votes being cast in some communities than there were registered voters. That turned out to be an error in how the votes were reported by the department, not in the counting.

And the early Election Day polls, conducted for a consortium of television networks and The Associated Press, which proved largely inaccurate in showing Mr. Kerry leading in Florida and Ohio, continued to be offered as evidence that the Bush team somehow cheated.

But while authorities acknowledge that there were real problems on Election Day, including troubles with some electronic machines and intolerably long lines in some places, few have suggested that any of these could have changed the outcome.

"There are real problems to be addressed," said Doug Chapin of Electionline.org, a clearinghouse of election reform information, "and I'd hate for them to get lost in second-guessing of the result."

It is that second-guessing, however, that has largely characterized the blog-to-e-mail-to-blog continuum. Some election officials have become frustrated by the rumor mill.

"It becomes a snowball of hearsay," said Matthew Damschroder, the director of elections in Columbus, Ohio, where an electronic voting machine malfunctioned in one precinct and allotted some 4,000 votes to President Bush, kicking off its own flurry of Web speculation. That particular problem was unusual and remains unexplained, but it was caught and corrected, Mr. Damschroder said.

"Some from the traditional media have called for an explanation," he said, "but no one from these blogs has called and said, 'We want to know what really happened.' "

Whether that is the role of bloggers, Web posters and online pundits, however, is a matter of debate.

Clay Shirky, an adjunct professor in the interactive telecommunications program at New York University, suggests that the online fact-finding machine has come unmoored, and that some bloggers simply "can't imagine any universe in which a fair count of the votes would result in George Bush being re-elected president."

But some denizens of the Web see it differently.

Jake White, the owner of the Web log primordium.org, argues that he and other election-monitoring Web posters are not motivated solely by partisan politics. "While there are no doubt large segments of this movement that are being driven by that," he said in an e-mail message, "I prefer to think of it as discontent over the way the election was held."

Mr. White also quickly withdrew his own analysis of voting systems in Ohio when he realized the data he had used was inaccurate.

John Byrne, editor of an alternative news site, BlueLemur.com, says it is too easy to condemn blogs and freelance Web sites for being inaccurate. The more important point, he said, is that they offer an alternative to a mainstream news media that has become too timid. "Of course you can say blogs are wrong," he said. "Blogs are wrong all the time."

For its part, the Kerry campaign has been trying to tamp down the conspiracy theories and to tell supporters that their mission now is to ensure that every vote is counted, not that the election be overturned.

"We know this was an emotional election, and the losing side is very upset," said Daniel Hoffheimer, the lead lawyer for the Kerry campaign in Ohio. But, he said, "I have not seen anything to indicate intentional fraud or tampering."

A preliminary study produced by the Voting Technology Project, a cooperative effort between the California Institute of Technology and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, came to a similar conclusion. Its study found "no particular patterns" relating to voting systems and the final results of the election.

"The 'facts' that are being circulated on the Internet," the study concluded, "appear to be selectively chosen to make the point."

Whether that will ever convince everyone is an open question.

"I'd give my right arm for Internet rumors of a stolen election to be true," said David Wade, a spokesman for the Kerry campaign, "but blogging it doesn't make it so. We can change the future; we can't rewrite the past."


Ford Fessenden and John Schwartz contributed reporting for this article.


"The 'facts' that are being circulated on the Internet appear to be selectively chosen to make the point". That pretty much sums it up for me, its basically been the one point I've been making here.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 02:45 pm
Harper wrote:
Again, a reponse with no substance and without even reading the information posted. What did Twain say about remaining silent...


That someone rejects any particular hypothesis does not entail or even imply the one rejecting has not critically examined that hypothesis, considered its foundation and provenance objectively, consulted relevant data, reportage, and other evidence, and come to the reasoned conclusion the core assertion of the hypotheis at question is baseless.

As long as we're doin' aphorisms here, it has been said the definition of stupidity is to persist in a repeatedly failed course of action with expectation of improved result. The Bard of Hannibal indeed had a point in his observation to which you alluded. And so did Oklahoma's most celebrated philosopher, when he observed "I belong to no organized political party. I'm a Democrat". Pairing the two bons mots seems extraordinarily appropriate to the current instance.

Returning to Mr. Twain, in a lengthy series of articles devoted to one M. Paul Bourget, with who's postulates in the matter of literarily defining America and Americans Mr. Twain took considerable exception, there were offered among the several thousand words contained within the excersize the following:

Mark Twain wrote:
I should have something worth talking about if you would only furnish me something to argue, something to refute -- but you persistently won't. You leave good chances unutilized and spend your strength in proving and establishing unimportant things.
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Harper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 03:18 pm
Quote:
"The 'facts' that are being circulated on the Internet appear to be selectively chosen to make the point". That pretty much sums it up for me, its basically been the one point I've been making here.


Wow, how odd is it for those making a hypothesis to present facts that support their theory. Puhleeeeeze, gimme a break.

I don't think anyone here has suggested that there is any proof yet of voter fraud, but there is more than enough evidence to raise suspicions. There are enough people on to this now that the truth will come out eventually. I hope. One thing for sure, we cannot accept this paperless blackbox system. If the Republicans had not blocked efforts to assure paper receipts maybe the level of suspicion that they might have stole this election would be much lower.
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Harper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 03:23 pm
Nice quote from Twain. I am really surprised at your honest self-assessment.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 03:36 pm
Yup, like I said, Harper ... gotta admire your pluck.

And as I've said before as well, some Democrats evince a mindset characteristic of the qualities which have brought The Democratic Party to its present state. Discourse of the nature you, in concert with such, appear to favor leads me confidently to expect The American People may rely upon the continued efforts and unchanging accomplishments of that subset of Democrats.
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Harper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 03:42 pm
I am watching the Canes v. Virginia game , do me a favor and post the above in understandable English and I will respond later.

I have a lot more than pluck but I am starting to get annoyed by the continued personal references. My character, traits and abililities are not the topic here.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 03:49 pm
No Harper, what is at discussion here is the argument you present and the manner in which you, apparently as the singular champion of that argument here participating, present, develop, and defend it.
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Harper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 05:41 pm
Please leave out the personal references, looks like the Canes have this one, I go to go and get ready to go play my songs of freedom.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 06:48 pm
Enjoy.
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Harper
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 05:31 am
Question:

Who here has voted on a touchscreen machine with no receipt and how did you feel about it?

Update: Bev Harris claims to have found evidence of fraud but can't reveal details. Frankly, I am getting a little skeptical about her claims. But I am equally skeptical about our voting systems as well.


htto://www.blackboxvoting.org
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 07:27 am
I did, and the machine is fool-proof.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 08:50 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I did, and the machine is fool-proof.


It isn't the fools that I'm worried about.

And not all machines are created equal: http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/travis.asp.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 09:00 am
"I work with statistics and polling data every day. Something rubbed me the wrong way. I checked the exit polls for Florida--all wrong. CNN's results indicated a Kerry win: turnout matched voter registration, and independents had broken 59% to 41% for Kerry.

Polling is an imprecise science. Yet its very imprecision is itself quantifiable and follows regular patterns. Differences between actual results and those expected from polling data must be explainable by identifiable factors if the polling sample is robust enough. With almost 3.000 respondents in Florida alone, the CNN poll sample was pretty robust.

The first signs of the rat were identified by Kathy Dopp, who conducted a simple analysis of voter registrations by party in Florida and compared them to presidential vote results. Basically she multiplied the total votes cast in a county by the percentage of voters registered Republican: this gave an expected Republican vote. She then compared this to the actual result.

Her analysis is startling. Certain counties voted for Bush far in excess of what one would expect based on the share of Republican registrations in that county. They key phrase is "certain counties"--there is extraordinary variance between individual counties. Most counties fall more or less in line with what one would expect based on the share of Republican registrations, but some differ wildly.

How to explain this incredible variance? Dopp found one over-riding factor: whether the county used electronic touch-screen voting, or paper ballots which were optically scanned into a computer. All of those with touch-screen voting had results relatively in line with her expected results, while all of those with extreme variance were in counties with optical scanning.

The intimation, clearly, is fraud. Ballots are scanned; results are fed into precinct computers; these are sent to a county-wide database, whose results are fed into the statewide electoral totals. At any point after physical ballots become databases, the system is vulnerable to external hackers.

It seemed too easy, and Dopp's method seemed simplistic. I re-ran the results using CNN's exit polling data. In each county, I took the number of registrations and assigned correctional factors based on the CNN .....


http://www.zogby.com/soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=10398
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 09:16 am
Zogby certainly doesn't take well to finding his methodology and expectations having been proven wrong.
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chris56789
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 09:20 am
More evidence the voting was hacked....

Watch this flash video:
http://www.syntheticniche.com/comics/notblog_flash.html
0 Replies
 
 

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