1
   

Evidence Mounts That The Vote May Have Been Hacked

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2004 06:10 am
roger wrote:
Well, gee, nimh. That sounds like shooting an arrow and running out and painting a bullseye around it. Not even implying that isn't how it's done, but it seems pointless.

Are you talking about the exit polls and how they are weighted into conformity with the actual results when those are actually in?

Well, again, the goal of exit polls is not actually to second-guess the actual results, or to predict them (let alone with bullseye precision). Thats not what they're for. As fbaezer posted elsewhere here:

fbaezer wrote:
EXIT POLLS ARE NOT MADE TO PREDICT WINNERS, BUT TO STUDY THE DEMOGRAPHICS AND THE REASONS OF VOTERS.
"Fast counts" (counting a sample of prescincts) are used to predict election results.
Leaking exit-poll data to predict a winner is a mis-use of polls.


The reason one does exit polls is so as to be able to say, afterwards, for example: Bush receieved 44% of the Latino vote, which is 9% more than in 2000 (quoting that example by heart, mind you). To make such a kind of statement, you need to have done a poll of voters as they came out of the voting booth, since they dont write down their ethnicity/religiosity/union membership etc on their ballot forms.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 07:59 pm
Hadda reactivate this thread - there's new news. It seems indeed there was vote fraud - lots of it - in the 2004 election. This just in:

Quote:

American Center For Voting Rights
Legislative Fund
1300 Eye Street, NW
Suite 1050 East
Washington, DC 20005
(202) 962-0311

August 2005
Dear Fellow Americans:

The American Center for Voting Rights Legislative Fund ("ACVR Legislative Fund") is proud to present the following report as the most comprehensive and authoritative review of the facts surrounding allegations of vote fraud, intimidation and suppression made during the 2004 presidential election. Using court records, police reports and news articles, ACVR Legislative Fund presents this "after action report" which documents hundreds of incidents and allegations from around the country, notes whether a factual basis for the charge exists and assesses what actions, if any, were taken by the responsible party, law enforcement or the courts. Most importantly, ACVR Legislative Fund makes eight key recommendations that, if implemented, will secure the American election system so that all voters will have the ability to participate free of intimidation and harassment and no legitimate voter will be disenfranchised by an illegal vote.

These recommendations also call for accountability for the political parties and activist groups engaged in the political process by holding them responsible for the actions of their operatives seeking to cast illegal votes or to intimidate or harass voters.

ACVR Legislative Fund found that thousands of Americans were disenfranchised by illegal votes cast on Election Day 2004. For every illegal vote cast and counted on Election Day, a legitimate voter is disenfranchised. This report documents a coordinated effort by members of some organizations to rig the election system through voter registration fraud, the first step in any vote fraud scheme that corrupts the election process by burying local officials in fraudulent and suspicious registration forms.

ACVR Legislative Fund further found that, despite their heated rhetoric, paid Democrat operatives were far more involved in voter intimidation and suppression activities than were their Republican counterparts during the 2004 presidential election. Whether it was slashing tires on GOP get-out-the-vote vans in Milwaukee or court orders stopping the DNC from intimidating Republican volunteers in Florida, the evidence presented in this report shows that paid Democrat operatives were responsible for using the same tactics in 2004 that they routinely accuse Republicans of engaging in ...

SOURCE (Download Note: 368 Page .pdf file - Approx 13.2 MB)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 08:16 pm
Thanks for posting a link that crashed and closed all of my I.E. windows, Big Bird, that was really helpful.

I went to the home page of the American Center for Voting Rights. It is interesting. If one reads the "about us" link they state that they are a non-partisan group. How lovely, and how very reassuring.

On their home page, there is a linked article about voter registration fraud in Ohio. As you might well imagine, i checked that out, and discovered that said letter was signed by Mark F. Hearne. So i checked out Mr. Hearne, and discovered, at the Larhrop and Gage L.C. site, the following interesting tidbits about Mr. Hearne:

2004: National election counsel to Bush-Cheney '04. Advised campaign on issues of national election law and litigation strategy and recruited and organized local counsel and oversaw election litigation in all battleground states.

2003 - 2004: Vice-President and Director of Election Operations for Republican National Lawyers Association, Chair of National Election Law School and Seminar, Orange County, California, August 2003 and Milwaukee, Wisconsin in July 2004. Advisor to California State Party counsel on Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger campaign and California recall election on Election Day operations and litigation.

2000 - 2002: Republican National Lawyers Association, Vice-President-Director Election Operations, Counsel to Bush-Cheney - 2000, Inc., Coordinated Missouri Election Day Legal Team and counsel in Bush-Cheney, 2000, Inc. v. Baker (see above), Broward County, Florida Recount Team


Good to see that you have used such a sterling, unbiased source for your information, Big Bird.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 08:26 pm
Until voting machines leave a paper trail, there can be no expectation of fairness by any voter.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 09:14 pm
Brad Blog has done a good job of putting together who is who. Seems there was a major press release about this "big report" which is just propoganda.

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001650.htm

(shouldn't crash any computers.) Cool
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 09:15 pm
Setanta wrote:
Thanks for posting a link that crashed and closed all of my I.E. windows, Big Bird, that was really helpful.
... Good to see that you have used such a sterling, unbiased source for your information, Big Bird.


The source was indicated to be a huge .pdf file - sorry if it crashed your machine, I prolly shoulda added a note that it is best to right-click and "Save As", rather than to open such big .pdf files right from your browser. My fault, there, and I'll try to keep it in mind.

As to the objectivity of the source, none claimed, either way, and the report details faults found on the parts of both Republicans and Democrats. The data from which the report was developed is all publically available - court records, police reports, news articles, reports from both partisan and non-partisan investigations, and the like. The report provides source reference for all data used, and details the methodology used for thye analysis by which the conclusions were drawn. Whether you agree with the politics of the report's publishing body, the report's data stands as valid, corroborated, and independently verifiable. Argue with the data, not with its collectors or with me.

edgar - I agree with your point regarding a failsafe, secure track-back methodology - something needs to be done along those lines, regardless the expense or inconvenmience. Perhaps the solution lies in the field of biometrics.
0 Replies
 
LionTamerX
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 09:21 pm
Anybody heard anything from Clinton Curtis lately ?

Remember him ?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 10:00 pm
LionTamerX wrote:
Anybody heard anything from Clinton Curtis lately ?

Remember him ?


The Left wing of the blogosphere is all abuzz with Clinton Davis references, as is Air America - even postulating tie-ins with Rove (of course), but there seems to be no real news to go with the hysteria. Sorta leads one to wonder, don't it? I mean, you'd think Conyers would be all over such an explosive allegation - why isn't he? Ya think mebbe Conyers is in Rove's pocket too?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 11:49 pm
http://www.specialoperations.com/Aviation/Little_Birds/littlebird2.jpg

p.s. It's been too long... and due. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 12:08 am
timberlandko wrote:
As to the objectivity of the source, none claimed, either way, and the report details faults found on the parts of both Republicans and Democrats. The data from which the report was developed is all publically available - court records, police reports, news articles, reports from both partisan and non-partisan investigations, and the like. The report provides source reference for all data used, and details the methodology used for thye analysis by which the conclusions were drawn. Whether you agree with the politics of the report's publishing body, the report's data stands as valid, corroborated, and independently verifiable. Argue with the data, not with its collectors or with me.


I hadn't argued with you, rather with the reliability of your source--someone so partisan would automatically be suspect by the cui bono test of historiography, and principles of historiography are what i apply when i read the news, as they are very close to legal standards of evidence. Court records and police records, apart from convictions recorded in the former source, only demonstrate that someone has made an allegation, they do not indicate that the allegation is true. Were someone's tires slashed, it may well have been by a competing partisan canvasser, but simply filing a police report does not prove that. Furthermore, given the source, one would be left wondering if the right were engaged in the same tactics, but due to partisan preference, reports of those activities did not appear in the report. This means i have little reason to believe you when you assert that the reports data is "valid, corroborated." It may be independently verifiable, but obviously i personally have neither the time nor the resources to hunt down so many records of that character. A good deal of what i did eventually read there are post hoc accusations, to the effect that an event were alleged to occur, partisan opponents were in the vicinity, and therefore the accusation against the partisan opponents are proven. That is not to be taken without quibble. I can slash my own tires, and then file a police report. I can file a police report to that effect even were my tires not slashed. I can take someone to court on flimsy evidence, or no evidence at all. That a court record exists proves nothing.

Given the source, anyone should be sceptical. More than that, such an obviously partisan source portraying itself as non-partisan is doubly suspect.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 04:35 am
What set said.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 09:35 am
I'm still waiting for any counter-evidence. Were the tires of any Democrats slashed?

Did I miss the news stories of any Republicans being sentenced to jail for voter-fraud...as were some Democrats?

Reminds me of a quote I once saw by Huey Long:

"When I die, I want to be buried in Louisiana so I can stay active in politics".
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 10:35 am
Phony GOP Voting Rights Group Delivers Onslaught of Disinfo
Phony GOP 'Voting Rights' Group Delivers Onslaught of Disinfo Today!
'Non-Partisan' Republican Front Group, American Center for Voting Rights Releases Report, Six Press Releases Focusing on Democratic 'Election Fraud'

Massive Republican Voter Disenfranchisement Virtually Unmentioned, Phony Quotes by 'Democrat' Used in Releases

In a massive new attempt today to disinform the American Voting Public and sidetrack the true bi-partisan Election Reform movement in this country, the phony "voting rights" group -- calling...

In a massive new attempt today to disinform the American Voting Public and sidetrack the true bi-partisan Election Reform movement in this country, the phony "voting rights" group -- calling themselves deceptively "American Center for Voting Rights" (ACVR) -- issued a new report today charging that Democrats were "Far More Involved In Voter Intimidation And Suppression In 2004."

Five different heavily Democratic-leaning cities were cited in each of six different Press Releases issued at once via US Newswire within the last hour as being amongst the "top Election Fraud Hotspots" in the country. The sixth Press Release was focused on pushing the ACVR propoganda claim: "Democrat Operatives Far More Involved In Voter Intimidation, Suppression In 2004".

The deceptively-self-described "non-partisan" ACVR, as previously exposed in a series of exclusive articles on The BRAD BLOG, is a Republican front group created by high-level GOP operatives expressly for the purpose of spreading disinformation to sidetrack the Election Reform movement in this country.

Both of ACVR's main players continue to be tied to the upper echelons of the GOP and are longtime Republican partisan operatives. Executive Director Mark F. "Thor" Hearne, has been a backroom player for years in the Missouri and national GOP parties and was most recently the National General Counsel for Bush/Cheney '04 Inc. Their Press Spokesman Jim Dyke was the RNC Communications Director during the 2004 election responsible for arranging to have operatives dress up in "Flipper" costumes at John Kerry election events.

Though they claim to be "non-partisan" and enjoy tax-exempt status as a 501(c)3 organization, they have never shared their 501(c)3 paperwork with The BRAD BLOG as requested (and as they had promised many months ago) despite what we understand is a legal requirement to do so.

Hearne was called to testify as an "expert witness" at a House Administrative Committee Hearing on the Ohio election just days after the creation of the phony group. The ACVR was the only such "Voting Rights" group called to participate in the hearings. Hearne misrepresented himself at those hearings only as a "longtime voting rights advocate," saying nothing about his ties to Bush/Cheney and the Republican Party. The hearings were chaired by Rep. Bob Ney (R-OH), who is himself now under investigation for various alleged ethics violations.

We're on the move today, so haven't yet gotten to plow through the ACVR's full report, but in an onslaught of Press Releases today, the ACVR is clearly attempting to get the message out that it's Democrats, not Republicans, who primarily engage in "Election Fraud".

Ironically, they identify "non-partisan" (yes, they use the quotes!) groups such as ACORN as inappropriately registering Democratic voters. And though the ACVR report is identified in each of the Press Releases as "the most comprehensive and authoritative review of the facts surrounding allegations of vote fraud, intimidation and suppression made during the 2004 presidential election" there are no references to the thousands of well-known allegations of Republican intimidation and vote-suppression around the country or the Voter Registration forms collected and destroyed by groups tied to Republican Operative Nathan Sproul and Associates. Those registration forms -- from Democratic voters only -- were alleged to have been shredded in key swing states including Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio, Florida, Oregon and Nevada.

This article from Boston University's Daily Free Press, amongst many others, details the many charges against Sproul and Associates and the phony "non-partisan" Voter Registration groups he set up around the country. Sproul was paid millions by Team Bush and attempted to hide it according to the Baltimore Chronicle and several other reports, and is the subject of a criminal investigation related to these matters in the state of Oregon. Much more on Sproul & Associates is available here.

No reference to Sproul or the many dirty tricks said to have been conducted by groups he organized are mentioned in any of the ACVR Press Releases today.

One new tactic of the ACVR's revealed in the flurry of Press Releases, is the addition of quotes from "ACVR Legislative Fund board member" Brian Lunde who was a DNC Executive Director at one point apparently. Press Reports, however, reveal Lunde as having worked closely with Bush Political Operative, Karl Rove and having represented several big business organizations which are supportive of Bush Administration initiatives.

The Press Releases, one each for the five so-called "Election Fraud 'Hot Spot'" cities, each quote Lunde as saying the same thing, but change the city referred to by Lunde in the quote.

For example, in the Release on St. Louis, claimed the "No. 3 Election Fraud 'Hot Spot'", Lunde is quoted as saying:

"Election after election, political parties, election officials and the news media act surprised when fraud, intimidation and suppression activities occur. Now everyone is on notice that there's a problem in the St. Louis area and those who don't participate in a solution will be held accountable," said Brian Lunde, ACVR Legislative Fund board member.

The city is then replaced in the Press Release on Seattle, claiming the city to be the "No. 3 Election Fraud 'Hot Spot' in America":

"Election after election, political parties, election officials and the news media act surprised when fraud, intimidation and suppression activities occur. Now everyone is on notice that there's a problem in Seattle and those who don't participate in a solution will be held accountable," said Brian Lunde, ACVR Legislative Fund board member.

The other three Press Releases referring to the top "Election Fraud 'Hot Spots'" have the same quote from Lunde, changed only to refer to the city in question: Philadelphia, Milwaukee and Cleveland.

A Washington Post article from 2003 identified Lunde as working closely with Bush political director/operative Rove:

For many on the list, the Rove connection is a mutually beneficial two-way street. Brian Lunde, former executive director of the Democratic National Committee and one of the few Democrats on the list, helped the Bush 2000 campaign round up Democratic supporters.

After Bush took office, Lunde has recommended Democrats for White House appointments, especially in cases requiring selections from both parties. During consideration of trade proposals and protective measures for the steel industry, Lunde could suggest to Rove potential Democratic supporters, which, in turn, advanced the interests of such Lunde clients as the Business Roundtable and Nucor Steel, which backed the administration initiatives.

As mentioned, because we are travelling this afternoon, we've not yet had time to try and reach Lunde for comment. However, Dyke's phone number is given on each press release as 843-532-1192 for those who may have any questions.

The ACVR's homepage where their report, and several other pages of appalling disinformation is available is at www.AC4VR.com.

This Saturday is the 40th anniversary of the landmark Voting Rights Act. No doubt, today's reports and press releases were meant to coincide and continue the gross insult that the American Center for Voting Rights represents to the true Voting Rights activists in this country, many of whom have given their lives in support of such rights over the past century.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 11:16 am
JustWonders wrote:
I'm still waiting for any counter-evidence. Were the tires of any Democrats slashed?


I'm still waiting for proof, were any tires of Republicans slashed?

Quote:
Did I miss the news stories of any Republicans being sentenced to jail for voter-fraud...as were some Democrats?


What evidence do you have that any members of the Democratic party were jailed for voter fraud in the last election?

Quote:
Reminds me of a quote I once saw by Huey Long:

"When I die, I want to be buried in Louisiana so I can stay active in politics".


I'm sure you were very eager to put in what you consider a clever quote, but this, of course, has no relevance to this discussion. It took me a matter of minutes to track down Mr. Hearne as a major Republican operative who is posing as a voting rights advocate. Read Aunt Bee's post. When you have something substantiable for your silly accusations, come back and see us.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 11:55 am
So, the report is to be discounted as a partisan smear, based on the spin of a partisan blogger. yeah, that's consistent.

Here's something to consider:

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/9675/tireslashers7pu.jpg

Quote:
STATE OF WISCONSIN - Plaintiff(s)
Plaintiff CRIMINAL COMPLAINT
vs.


Pratt, Michael
4045 N. 16th Street
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53209
(DOB: May 14, 1972)

Omokunde, Sowande A.
4043 N. 19th Place
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53209
(DOB: August 22, 1979)

Caldwell, Lewis G.
2938 N. Summit Ave.
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53211
(DOB: December 29, 1976)

Mohammad, Lavelle
4723 West Lloyd Street
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53208
(DOB: August 27, 1969)

Howell, Justin
2402 Olive Street
Racine, Wisconsin 53403
(DOB: July 24, 1984)
Defendant(s)



Complaining Witness:
Michael Sandvick
Detective
City of Milwaukee Department of Police



THE ABOVE NAMED COMPLAINING WITNESS BEING DULY SWORN SAYS THAT THE ABOVE NAMED DEFENDANT(S) IN THE COUNTY OF MILWAUKEE, STATE OF WISCONSIN.

COUNT 01: CRIMINAL DAMAGE TO PROPERTY (REDUCED IN VALUE BY MORE THAN $2,500), PARTY TO A CRIME (As to Defendants Michael Pratt, Sowande Omokunde, Lewis Caldwell, Lavelle Mohammad and Justin Howell)

On November 2, 2004, at 7113 West Capitol Drive, City of Milwaukee, as party to a crime, did intentionally cause damage to the physical property of the Republican Party Of Wisconsin without said person's consent, whereby said property was reduced in value by more than $2500.00, contrary to Wisconsin Statutes Section 943.01(2)(d) and 939.05.

AS TO COUNT 01:
Upon conviction of this charge, a Class I Felony, the maximum possible penalty is a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than 3.5 years or both.

Your complaining witness states that he is a detective employed by the Milwaukee Police Department. He makes this complaint based upon his own investigation, based upon statements made to him by adult citizens who he believes to be reliable and based upon his review of reports prepared by fellow law enforcement officers. Complainant states that he has reviewed such reports in the past and has found them to be accurate and reliable.

Complaining witness states that on November 2, 2004, at approximately 6:45 a.m. the Milwaukee Police Department was contacted by Rick Wiley who identified himself as a political director for the Republican Party of Wisconsin. Mr. Wiley informed the Milwaukee Police Department that between October 29 and November 1, 2004 he had rented a large number of vans to be used for the final weekend of the presidential campaign. He stated that on November 1, 2004 all the vans were parked at a Republican Party office located at 7113 West Capitol Drive in the City and County of Milwaukee. When Mr. Wiley arrived at the Capitol Drive office at approximately 6:15 a.m. on Tuesday, November 2, he discovered that the tires had been slashed on a number of the vans. Mr. Wiley stated that some of the tires went flat right away. In addition, during the course of the day three vans that were not immediately recognized as having flat tires had tires deflate while being driven that morning. Mr. Wiley subsequently made arrangements with the Firestone dealer on 60th and Capitol Drive to get the tires repaired. The Firestone dealer dispatched tow trucks to the Republican Party office to begin repairing the tires. In addition, the three vans that became disabled were towed to the Firestone station for the purposes of repairs. Mr. Wiley reported that Firestone began towing vehicles around noon. The invoices provided by Mr. Wiley show that 40 tires on 25 separate vehicles were damaged during the course of this incident. The total cost for repairing the tires was $4,192.35. In addition, the towing charges were $1,125.00. Mr. Wiley stated that he had rented the vehicles and that he and the Republican Party of Wisconsin were responsible for repairing the damage. He further stated that he had given no one in the world permission or consent to slash the tires. Mr. Wiley had rented the vans for the purposes of being used to transport voters to the polling places on November 2, 2004 as well as transporting poll watchers to their poll locations.

Complaining witness states that 7113 W Capitol Drive is on the south side of Capitol Drive and that that block on the south side is bounded to the west by the 3900 block of North 72nd Street and is bounded on the east by the 3900 block of North 71st Street. Complainant states that an alley runs behind 7113 W Capital Drive connecting the 3900 block of north 72nd Street to the 3900 block of North 71st Street and that there is a vacant lot west of 7113 W Capitol Drive which can be used for parking.

Complaining witness states that he spoke with Lawrence Shobe who identified himself as the service manager at the Firestone Tire Center located at 4060 N. 60th Street. Mr. Shobe confirmed that the repairs to the RNC vehicles were completed on November 2-3, 2004. He examined the tires as the vehicles were brought in and 90% of the flat tires had slashes or punctures on the sidewalls and needed to be replaced. He confirmed that the charges for these repairs were $4192.35, plus the towing charges.

Complaining witness states that Milwaukee Police Detective Matthew Quist spoke to an adult citizen Cedric Peoples who identified himself as a security guard for Milwaukee Patrol. Mr. Peoples stated that on the night of November 2, 2004, he was working as a security guard at the Republican National Committee office located at 7113 West Capitol Drive in the City and County of Milwaukee. Mr. Peoples stated that there was a parking lot on the west side of the building where there were several rented vans used by the campaign. Peoples stated that there was an alley behind the building where there were several more vans rented by the campaign. At approximately 3:30 a.m. on November 2, 2004, Mr. Peoples was circling the block in his own personal car when he began to see suspicious behavior. Peoples informed Detective Quist that he saw two vans in the 3900 block of North 72nd Street with van number one facing southbound and van number two facing northbound. Both vans were new rental style vans that were light in color. Peoples saw a black male who he described as being in his late 20s to early 30s exit the van which was facing southbound and walk over to the van that was facing northbound. This black male began talking to persons that were in the northbound facing van. Peoples was able to see that there were two to four people inside the second van. The black male then entered the second van which drove off northbound. This van pulled around the block into the 3900 block of North 71st Street and the doors were opened to the van, and the same black male that Peoples had originally observed exited this van. This individual subsequently identified as the defendant Lavelle Mohammad began walking westbound on West Capitol Drive and walked all the way to the rear of a furniture store at 72nd and Capitol Drive where Peoples observed defendant Mohammad begin to urinate behind the building.

Defendant Mohammad then walked over to the bus stop at 72nd and Capitol Drive. Peoples stated that he continued to monitor defendant Mohammad because he was suspicious, as he knew that the buses had already stopped running. Peoples observed defendant Mohammad talking to someone on a cell phone. Peoples watched Mohammad wait at the bus stop for five to 10 minutes and then Peoples saw the van drive by Mohammad going westbound and then make a u-turn returning eastbound. The van stopped in front of defendant Mohammad who motioned for it to go. This van then went eastbound and did not return.

Peoples then observed a white newer model four-door sedan with Illinois license plate 4969825 pull up eastbound and stop next to defendant Mohammad. Defendant Mohammad then entered this vehicle which was driven by an individual subsequently identified as Leshaunda J. Williams. Peoples followed Ms. Williams' car which drove to the area of the west parking lot on North 72nd Street. Defendant Mohammad then got out of the vehicle and walked over to the van that Peoples had originally seen defendant Mohammad get out of. Defendant Mohammad reentered that van and drove off. The white auto then also drove off. Peoples followed the auto southbound for half a block and wrote down the license plate number on a piece of paper. Peoples then drove into the alley behind 7113 W Capitol Drive where several of the Republican rental vans were parked. At that point Peoples saw a white male who he described as being in his late teens to early 20s standing by some of the vans. Defendant Caldwell is a white male. When Peoples got out of his vehicle to see what defendant Caldwell was doing, Peoples saw defendant Caldwell then flee eastbound into the alley. Peoples could then hear the sound of air going out of tires. He then checked and saw that tires had been slashed on the vans in the alley. Peoples checked vans in the parking lot to the west where tires had also been slashed.

Your complaining witness states that during the course of the investigation, it was determined that the white automobile bearing Illinois license plate 4969825 was listed as being rented by an individual named Opel Simmons III. Police also learned that Simmons was in Wisconsin to work for the Democratic National Committee.

On November 2, 2004 at approximately 8:30 p.m., Milwaukee Police officers located the vehicle with Illinois license plate 496-9825, which was parked on the street in the 3900 block of North Teutonia Street. At approximately 10:00 p.m. an individual identified as Leshaunda J. Williams was observed placing something in the trunk of the vehicle and then entering the vehicle and driving away. The vehicle was subsequently stopped on 7th Street. When officers questioned Ms. Williams, she informed them that the car was a rental and that her boss, Opel Simmons, was the one who had rented it. While officers were present at this scene on North 7th Street, they were approached by Opel Simmons who informed them that he was the person who had rented the car and that it was to be used by his workers for their campaign activities. Simmons was asked to accompany the officers to the Police Administration Building and agreed to do so. While there Simmons spoke to Detective Brian Reilly and informed Detective Reilly that he had knowledge of what had occurred at the Republican Party headquarters although he was not directly involved. He stated that he knew that tires had been slashed at the Republican headquarters and that five of his workers were involved. Simmons identified them defendant Michael Pratt, defendant Sowande Omokunde who Simmons knew as Supreme Allah, defendant Lavelle Mohammad, defendant Lewis Caldwell and defendant Justin Howell. He stated that on Monday, November 1, 2004, a group of individuals were at the Democratic headquarters at Teutonia and Capitol when they discussed a plan to go to the Republican National Committee office at 71st and Capitol and put yard signs, placards and bumper stickers on their building. They wanted it to look like a Democratic Party headquarters. They even came up with the name "Operation Elephant Takeover." Simmons stated that after this meeting took place, he and Levar Stoney drove to Madison in order to meet with other individuals from the Democratic Party. He stated that none of this plan was ever sanctioned by the Democratic Party. Simmons stated that when he returned to Milwaukee in the early hours of November 2, 2004, he was informed by one of his workers that there were security guards at the Republican office, and the plan was called off.

Your complaining witness states that Milwaukee Police officers were present when Mr. Simmons was interviewed by Milwaukee County Assistant District Attorney David Feiss. Simmons informed Assistant District Attorney Feiss that when he returned to the Democratic Party headquarters sometime around 3:00 a.m. on November 2, 2004, he observed defendant Pratt, defendant Omokunde, defendant Mohammad, defendant Caldwell and defendant Howell dressed in what he described as "Mission Impossible" type gear, black outfits and knit caps. Simmons then asked the five, "What are you guys going to do? You know they got folks up there." One of the five responded by telling him words to the effect of "Oh, man, you don't want to know, you don't want to know." He indicated that they were laughing and joking with him and told him again that they couldn't tell him what they were about to do and that he didn't want to know. He then told them to be careful and stated that he didn't know what they had planned but they could not confront anyone. Simmons stated that prior to leaving, defendant Lavelle Mohammad looked at him and said in response to Simmons' questions about what they were getting ready to do, "You don't want to know, don't ask."

Simmons stated that approximately 20 minutes later all five of the defendants were extremely excited. When they came into the office, defendant Pratt stated, "They won't go anywhere now, man, we got ?'em, we got ?'em." Simmons asked what was going on, and defendant Mohammad repeated, "We got ?'em, we got ?'em. They're not going anywhere now." Defendant Caldwell stated, "Man, I walked right past the security guard. He didn't even know anything was going on." Then defendant Mohammad stated, "That's ?'cause, you know, I was acting all crazy, you know, I was acting crazy. I even let him watch me piss." Simmons again asked, "What's going on?" and defendant Pratt said, "We got ?'em. We hit the tires." Then all five of the defendants started to remark about various tires and how they heard the "phew, phew, phew" sound of air coming out of the tires. Simmons stated that he could not recall specific statements by defendants Omokunde or defendant Howell but that they were both present and participated in the conversation.

Simmons stated that at some point during the day someone in the office pulled an article from the Journal Sentinel website on the incident. Simmons had a conversation with defendant Mohammad in which defendant Mohammad remarked that he was going to pull that article down and frame it and put it on his wall. Simmons stated that he interpreted this as a sort of "you can't catch me" type statement by defendant Mohammad. Simmons stated that he did not talk to any of the other defendants about the tire-slashing incident during the course of the day on November 2, 2004.

Complaining witness states that Levar Stoney was interviewed by an FBI Agent on January 14, 2005 In Virginia. He informed the agent that he had been in Wisconsin from early October until just after the November election working on a Get Out the Vote effort. On the day before the election he was at Democratic headquarters when there was a discussion of a plan to go to the Republican headquarters and place or remove signs. He heard no discussion about slashing of any tires. They were to meet at their headquarters at 2:00 a.m.

At around 11:00 p.m. he drove to Madison with Opel Simmons to pick up some materials they needed for election day. When they returned, they went to hotel for a short while and then returned to headquarters. When they arrived at around 2:30 a.m., he saw defendant Pratt, defendant Mohammad, defendant Howell, defendant Caldwell and defendant Omokunde, who he knew as "Supreme". They were with co-workers of his, Alicia Smith, Myesha Ward and Ashley Collier. A person who he did not know who he described as a friend of defendant Howell's was also present. He heard someone in the group say "are you ready to go?" He responded by saying that there were about 100 vans and a lot of people still at the Republican headquarters. He decided he did not want to go and he was taunted as a result.

A short time later Stoney said he awoke to a lot of commotion in the office. He walked out and he saw defendant Pratt, defendant Mohammad, defendant Omokunde, defendant Howell, defendant Caldwell and the friend of Howell's. He heard one of them say "we got em good." The group discussed slashing tires and then proceeded to go into details about what their roles had been. Stoney heard that defendant Mohammad was the " deception guy", who walked around acting like he was drunk. He heard that defendant Omokunde tried to slash some tires, however he was unsuccessful on his first attempt. On his second attempt Omukunde was able to slash a tire. He heard that defendant Caldwell, also known as "Gib" got one or two and defendant Pratt got four tires. During this conversation Stoney saw one of the men carrying a knife which he described as a "steak knife." Stoney heard defendant Pratt tell the person with the knife to put it away.

Complaining witness states that Leshaunda "Joy" Williams spoke to Milwaukee Police detectives on November 3, 2004 and special agents with the Federal Bureau of Investigation on January 13, 2005 regarding this incident. Ms. Williams stated that she was present at the north side Democratic headquarters which was at 3967 North Teutonia Ave. on Monday, November 1, 2004 when a discussion took place about "Operation Elephant Takeover" which involved a plan to put Kerry signs around the building of the Republican headquarters. She recalled defendant Pratt, defendant Mohammad, defendant Caldwell and defendant Omokunde as being present at this meeting. Williams stated that shortly after the meeting defendant Pratt received a phone call from defendant Mohammad informing him there was a security guard out at the headquarters, and the group called off their plans. Williams stated that she then drove back to her hotel to take a shower and a nap. She returned to the office about 1:30 a.m. Thereafter she left the office to return to her hotel room to retrieve a lap top computer. Williams was unable to remember the exact time that she had done this, but on her way back she stopped for gas at the BP gas station on Capitol Drive. A prepaid gas card receipt recovered from the vehicle being driven by Ms. Williams shows that this transaction took place at the Amoco station at North73rd and West Capitol at 3:35 a.m. on November 2, 2004. After leaving the gas station she saw defendant Mohammad standing on the corner by the Republican headquarters on Capitol Drive. He was wearing a black jacket, jeans and glasses and was leaning against a pole in the grassy area. She stated that she did a u-turn and came back around to talk to him. Defendant Mohammad then entered her vehicle, and she drove him a short distance and dropped him off at a van that had been rented by the Democratic campaign effort. While he was in the car defendant Mohammad made a comment to her to the effect of, "We really got ?'em." Williams stated that throughout the night she had seen defendant Mohammad with defendant Pratt, defendant Omokunde, defendant Caldwell and an unknown black male whose name she did not know subsequently determined to be defendant Howell. Williams stated that during the course of the day of November 2nd 2004, she had a conversation with defendant Mohammad where she asked him if he'd seen the article in the paper about the vans at the Republican headquarters. Defendant Mohammad smiled at her and replied affirmatively. Williams stated that his tone of voice and his facial expression and body language led her to believe that he was acknowledging to her that he was involved in slashing the tires.

Complaining witness states that adult citizen Alicia Smith was interviewed by agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Virginia on December 6, 2004. Ms. Smith informed the agents that she had been employed as a Get Out the Vote supervisor in Milwaukee from October through November of 2004. While there she worked for Opel Simmons and was a co-worker of Ms. Williams. Ms. Smith stated that she was present at the Democratic headquarters on North Teutonia Avenue when there was discussion a day or two prior to the election about an election day antic which they called "Operation Elephant Takeover." She described this as a plan to put Kerry/Edwards signs and stickers on or around the building that the Republican National Committee headquarters was located in. Smith stated that subsequently this plan was called off when it was discovered that the Republican headquarters was monitored by security guards. She stated that she and a co-worker, Ashley Collier, arrived at the party headquarters sometime between 12:00 and 1:00 a.m. on November 2, 2004. Smith stated that she stayed there until 2:30 or 3:00 a.m. when she left with Collier and Myesha Ward to return to Ward's hotel room so that they could change clothes. When Smith was leaving, Ms. Williams was also leaving in order to pick up a computer from her hotel. Opel Simmons and an individual named Levar Stoney remained at the headquarters location.

Smith stated that at about the same time that she was leaving headquarters between 2:30 and 3:00 a.m., defendant Pratt, defendant Omokunde, defendant Mohammad, defendant Caldwell and defendant Howell indicated that they were going to "check out" the Republican headquarters. Smith stated at the time they made this statement she was not aware of any election day antics they had planned.

When Smith returned to headquarters around 4:30 or 5:00 a.m., she saw Leshaunda Williams who told her that when she was on her way back to headquarters, she had seen defendant Mohammad a block or so away from the Republican headquarters and that she had picked him up and given him a ride back to his vehicle. When she arrived back at the office, Smith also heard defendant Pratt, defendant Omokunde, defendant Mohammad, defendant Caldwell and defendant Howell talking about slashing tires of vehicles leased by the RNC that were parked at RNC headquarters. Smith could not remember which of the five said it, but someone stated "It was like a choir" and then made the sound of deflating tires. Smith stated that defendant Omokunde, who she knew as Allah, stated, "I only got to do two" referring to slashing of the tires. Smith told defendant Omokunde that she wanted nothing to do with it and left the room. She stated that no one else was present when defendant Omokunde made this statement.

Complaining witness states that FBI agents interviewed Myesha Ward on January 14, 2005 and she stated that she had been in Wisconsin from September 28, 2004 through the election on November 2, 2004. On November 1st she was at the Democratic campaign office when a discussion took place about a plan called "Operation Elephant Takeover" in which they discussed putting up placards and bumper stickers at the Republican Campaign headquarters. This was scheduled to take place at around 2:00 am on November 2nd, 2004. However prior to leaving to carry out this plan Ward and others were informed that there was a security guard at the Republican office and the plan was cancelled. Ward then left the office around 1:30 am and returned between 2:30 and 3:00 am. When she returned defendants Pratt, Mohammad and Howell were present. Ward believed that Omokunde and Caldwell were also there, but she was not certain of this.

She next recalled seeing all five defendants together sometime around 4:00AM. They were excited and worked up. She recalled them making comments to the effect of "we got them" or " we did it".

Complaining witness states that during the course of this investigation, he received information from FBI Special Agent Terry Sparacino. Agent Sparacino obtained information regarding calls made by the cell phone owned by defendant Mohammad, telephone number 414-350-3873, as well as information regarding cell phone activity for defendant Pratt, telephone number 414-688-5650, and defendant Omokunde, cell phone number 414-803-1707. This information consisted of information on incoming and outgoing calls made by the defendants as well as cell tower information indicating the approximate location of the defendants at the time calls were made. This information showed that on November 2, 2004, at approximately 2:52 a.m. defendant Mohammad placed a call to the Democratic Party headquarters on Teutonia. The cell tower information indicates that the call went through a cell tower located at 7677 West Appleton Avenue. At 2:53 a.m. defendant Mohammad received a call which went through the same cell tower.

Cell phone records showed that there were two calls at 2:54 a.m. and one call at 3:33 a.m. from Pratt to Mohammad all of which went through the same 7677 West Appleton Avenue cell tower. Defendant Mohammad then called defendant Pratt at 3:34 a.m. Defendant Pratt then called defendant Mohammad at 3:36 a.m. with each of these calls again going through the West Appleton Avenue cell tower. Defendant Pratt then called defendant Mohammad at 3:42 a.m. with that call going through a cell tower located at 5750 West Fond Du Lac Avenue. Defendant Mohammad then placed another phone call at 3:43 a.m. bouncing through a cell tower at 4222 West Capitol Drive. Defendant Pratt then called defendant Mohammad twice at 3:44 a.m. again going through the 4222 West Capitol Drive cell tower.

Special Agent Sparacino's analysis of defendant Pratt's cell phone records shows that the call from defendant Pratt to defendant Mohammad at 2:54 a.m. went through a cell tower at 3533 North 27th Street which is consistent with defendant Pratt being at the Democratic Party headquarters at Capitol and Teutonia. The cell tower records show that the 3:36 a.m. call from defendant Pratt to defendant Mohammad went through the tower at 5120 West Capitol Drive. The calls at 3:42 a.m. and 3:44 a.m. from defendant Pratt to defendant Mohammad went through the North 27th Street cell tower.

Your complaining witness states that the cell tower activity is consistent with defendant Pratt and defendant Mohammad traveling from the Democratic Party headquarters to the Republican Party headquarters and is consistent with other witnesses who suggested that defendant Mohammad had been sent in advance to screen activity at the location.


****End of Complaint****

Source
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 11:57 am
So you have a single complaint filed, from which you and JW both feel justified in extrapolating a pattern of Democratic party employees practicing wide-spread voter fraud?

How quaint. Rather like building a castle from a grain of sand.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 02:57 pm
Not at all Set - I just dragged details on that one up because you singled it out as questionable. Its a real criminal indictment, The State of Wisconsin vs named defendants, charges stemming from a joint Milwaukee Police Department/FBI investigation which went on for 3 months, trial set for January of '06. It is not a "mere allegation" - there is hard "who, what, where, when, how" evidence on file. Barring plea bargaining, it looks real bad for those boys.


Now, back to the main subject - the report at discussion details irregularities and misdeeds by both camps. However, reported incidents and actual charges filed - criminal actions brought - in various states and cities, all well documented public record, are the basis for the report's contention. Rail at the messenger all you want - the message remains.

From the report, pages 30-33, consider this compilation of documented incidents:
Quote:
Violence And Other Incidents of Intimidation

In 2004, Republicans were subject to an aggressive and sometimes violent campaign of harassment and intimidation orchestrated by Kerry supporters. At least three Bush-Cheney offices were shot at during the election season. A swastika was burned into the front yard of a
Bush-Cheney supporter in Madison, Wisconsin. Other incidents included offices burglarized, windows smashed, tires slashed and other property damage. The following is a timeline of documented election-related violence and intimidation against the Bush-Cheney ?'04 campaign
and Republicans in 2004.

September 2, 2004: Gun Shot Fired Into Huntington, WV, Republican Headquarters.95
September 3, 2004: Windows Broken, Anti-Bush Messages Scrawled At Gallatin County, MT, Republican Headquarters.96
September 6, 2004: Huntington, WV, Republican Headquarters Egged.97
September 13, 2004: Swastika Drawn On Duluth, MN, Resident's Lawn, Signs Also Defaced With Words "Nazi" And "Liar."98
September 16, 2004: Community College Professor In Florida Punched Republican County Chairman In Face.99
September 22, 2004: West Elmira, NY, Resident Found Swastika Drawn On Bush Campaign Sign In His Yard.100
September 23, 2004: Office Ransacked During Break-In At Vilas County, WI, Republican Headquarters, Obscene Words And Graphic Pictures Sprayed On Campaign Signs.101
September 26, 2004: Windows Smashed And Signs Stolen At Oxford, MS, Bush-Cheney ?'04 Headquarters.102
October 1, 2004: Laptops Of Executive And Field Director Stolen From Bush-Cheney ?'04 Headquarters In Seattle, WA.103
October 1, 2004: Swastika Burned Into Front Yard Of Bush-Cheney ?'04 Supporter In Madison, WI.104
October 2, 2004: Collinsville, OH, Resident Chains Down Bush-Cheney ?'04 Signs After Several Signs Stolen And One Was Replaced With Kerry Sign.105
October 3, 2004: Burglary At Thousand Oaks, CA, Victory 2004 Headquarters Where Bush-Cheney ?'04 Banner Was Stolen From Outside Premises.106
October 5, 2004: Gun Shots Fired Into Knoxville, TN, Bush-Cheney ?'04 Office, Shattering Office's Glass Front Doors.107
October 8, 2004: Two Men Were Caught On A Hidden Camera Tearing Down And Urinating On Bush-Cheney ?'04 Sign In Akron, OH.108
October 9, 2004: Oxnard, CA, Supporter Placing Bush-Cheney ?'04 In Yards Verbally Abused, Knocked Down And Had Signs Stolen.109
October 9, 2004: Bush-Cheney Signs Near Vail, CO, Cut In Half And Burned In "Ransacking."110
October 10, 2004: Office Windows Broken And Field Director's Laptop Bag and Purse Stolen In Burglary At Canton, OH, Victory Office.111
October 11, 2004: Windows Broken, Petty Cash Stolen And Computers Tampered With In Burglary At Spokane, WA, Victory 2004 Headquarters.112
October 13, 2004: Walls And Windows Of York, PA, Victory 2004 Headquarters Vandalized With Pro-Kerry Spray-Paint And Signs Outside Destroyed.113
October 13, 2004: Window Smashed At Laconia, NH, Victory 2004 Headquarters.114
October 13, 2004: Kerry Supporter Caught Stealing Bush Sign In Cape Girardeau, MO, Pulled Knife On Sign's Owner And Was Arrested.115
October 15, 2004: Someone Destroyed Large Plywood Bush-Cheney ?'04 Sign, Then Tried To Smash Debris Though Glass Door Of Santa Fe, NM, Republican Party Headquarters.116
October 15, 2004: Someone Lined Window Sill With Bullet Casings At Littleton, NH, Republican Headquarters.117
October 16, 2004: Unknown Suspects Vandalized Large Bush-Cheney Campaign Sign In Hollister, CA, With Obscenities.118
October 17, 2004: Stickers Placed Over Windows Of Gettysburg, PA, Victory 2004 Headquarters.119
October 18, 2004: Eggs Thrown At Keene, NH, Victory 2004 Headquarters.120
October 18, 2004: 21 Protesters Arrested At Bush-Cheney ?'04 Campaign Headquarters In Arlington, VA.121
October 20, 2004: Rocks Thrown Through Windows At Multnomah County, OR, Republican Party Headquarters.122
October 21, 2004: Bomb Threat Made Against Lake Havasu, AZ, Republican Party Headquarters.123
October 21, 2004: Windows Smashed At Multnomah County Republican Party Headquarters In Portland, OR.124
October 22, 2004: Break-In Discovered At Cincinnati, OH, Victory 2004 Headquarters.125
October 22, 2004: Break-In Discovered At Flagstaff, AZ, Victory 2004 Headquarters.
Perpetrators gained entry by throwing a cinder block through a plate glass window.126
October 22, 2004: Chunk Of Concrete Tossed Through Glass Door Of Republican Headquarters In Santa Cruz, CA.127
October 23, 2004: Two Kerry Supporters Arrested After Stealing Pro-Bush Signs From Activist And Pushing Police Officer At Edwards Rally In St. Petersburg, FL.128

{References:}
95 Few Leads In Shooting At GOP HQ, www.wowktv.com, September 2, 2004
96 GOP Headquarters Vandalized In Political Protest, Walt Williams, BOZEMAN DAILY CHRONICLE, September 4, 2004
97 Bush Rally Planned For Arena, Bob Withers and Bryan Chambers, THE [Huntington, WV] HERALDDISPATCH, September 8, 2004
98 Campaign Vandalism Increases, Mark Stodghill, DULUTH NEWS-TRIBUNE, September 14, 2004
99 Fight Breaks Out At Republican Headquarters, WCJB NEWS, www.wcjb.com, September 20, 2004
100 Swastika On Bush Sign Troubles Resident, John P. Cleary, [Elmira, NY] STAR-GAZETTE, September 23, 2004
101 Vilas County Republican Headquarters Vandalized, WAOW NEWSLINE 9, September 23, 2004
102 Vandals Hit Local Bush Campaign Office, Martin Bartlett, THE DAILY MISSISSIPPIAN, September 28, 2004
103 3 Computers Are Stolen From Bush Campaign Office, David Postman and Ashley Bach, THE SEATTLE TIMES, October 7, 2004
104 Swastika Burned Into Grass On Bush-Cheney Supporter's Lawn, WISC-TV Website, www.channel3000.com, Accessed October 12, 2004
105 Bush-Cheney Signs Going Missing In Collinsville, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, October 2, 2004
106 Republicans Claim Democrats Are Behind Office Attacks, David D. Kirkpatrick, THE NEW YORK TIMES, October 26, 2004
107 Shots Fired At Knoxville Bush-Cheney Office, Duncan Mansfield, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, October 5, 2004
108 Men Videotaped Vandalizing Sign, Marilyn Miller and Andale Gross, AKRON BEACON JOURNAL, October 8, 2004
109 Letter To The Editor, VENTURA COUNTY STAR, October 13, 2004
110 Welcome To The Tea Party, Matt Zalaznick, Op-Ed, VAIL DAILY, October 9, 2004
111 Campaign Office Burgled Sunday, Edd Pritchard, CANTON REPOSITORY, October 12, 2004
112 President Bush's Campaign Office In Spokane Burglarized, Vandalized, David Postman, THE SEATTLE TIMES, October 11, 2004
113 News In Brief From Central Pennsylvania, THE ASSSOCIATED PRESS, October 15, 2005
114 Missing Campaign Signs Signal Statewide Trend, Kathleen D. Bailey, EXETER NEWS-LETTER, October 19, 2004
115 Cape Man Claims He Was Threatened At Political Rally, Linda Redeffer, SOUTHEAST MISSOURIAN, October 16, 2004
116 Political Differences Causing Vandalism In City Different, Steve Terrell, THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN, October 19, 2004
117 Democrats Push Students Online To Register To Vote, John DiStaso, THE UNION LEADER, October 21, 2004
118 Partisan Tension In SBC, Erin Musgrave, HOLLISTER [CA] FREE LANCE, October 24, 2004
119 Suspect In Gettysburg Vandalism To Enter Plea In District Court, 1320 WGET Website, www.wget.com, Accessed October 20, 2004
120 Democrats Push Students Online To Register To Vote, John DiStaso, THE UNION LEADER, October 21, 2004
121 21 Arrested In Arlington Protest Of Bush Administration AIDS Policy, Elaine Rivera, THE WASHINGTON POST, October 19, 2004
122 Someone Hurled Rocks, THE OREGONIAN, October 22, 2004
123 Bomb Threat Made Against Lake Havasu Republican HQ, TRI-STATE NEWS NETWORK, October 22, 2004
124 Oregon Political Fight Getting Rough, Janie Har, THE OREGONIAN, October 22, 2004
125 Local Bush/Cheney Headquarters Robbed, THE CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, October 23, 2004
126 Flag GOP Office Vandalized, Seth Muller, ARIZONA DAILY SUN, October 23, 2004
127 Vandals Strike At GOP Office, Yes On J Business, Jondi Gumz and Cathy Redfern, SANTA CRUZ SENTINEL, October 26, 2004
128 Florida In Candidates' Crossfire, Jamie Thompson, ST. PETERSBURG TIMES, October 24, 2004

Now, if someone can produce a similar list of Republican skullduggery against Democrats during the 2004 election, as verifiably reported by mainstream media - print or broadcast - more power to you. I'd certainly be interested to see such a list. There'd be a message there.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 05:54 pm
Setanta wrote:
JustWonders wrote:
I'm still waiting for any counter-evidence. Were the tires of any Democrats slashed?


I'm still waiting for proof, were any tires of Republicans slashed?

Quote:
Did I miss the news stories of any Republicans being sentenced to jail for voter-fraud...as were some Democrats?


What evidence do you have that any members of the Democratic party were jailed for voter fraud in the last election?

Quote:
Reminds me of a quote I once saw by Huey Long:

"When I die, I want to be buried in Louisiana so I can stay active in politics".


I'm sure you were very eager to put in what you consider a clever quote, but this, of course, has no relevance to this discussion. It took me a matter of minutes to track down Mr. Hearne as a major Republican operative who is posing as a voting rights advocate. Read Aunt Bee's post. When you have something substantiable for your silly accusations, come back and see us.


Well, I see Timber has already posted the charges against the tire slashers. Of course, you probably don't see this as substantial, but consider that they weren't just vandalizing automobiles, but attempting (and succeeding) to interfere with a national election.

I posted my "evidence" of Democrats being convicted of voter-fraud here (in the "Bush Supporters" thread) some time ago. I can't be held responsible if you miss the good stuff Smile

Of course, I'm sure you'll still see all of this as "silly accusations", but those five Democrats are, as we speak, learning prison lingo Smile
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 06:06 pm
Nothing about my response changes, Big Bird, most of your allegations are just that, allegations. The majority constitute post hoc fallacies which have no bearing upon an accusation of wide-spread voter fraud. They also suffer from the statistical fallacy of the enumeration of favorable circumstances. We only have your assertion that there is not a comparable or even a greater incidence of this type of activity by Republicans. Mr. Hearne willfully misrepresents his front organization as non-partisan, for which there is an old and honored term in English--Liar. The charitable assumption for me to make when taking note of your original post is that you did not know that the alleged voting rights organization is a front for two individuals deep in the councils of Republican election machinery.

Your link, JW, does not in any way suggest that the individuals in question are now incarcerated, although i'd stipulate as much for sake of argument. Once again, the fallacy of the enumeration of favorable circumstances. What are the total number of incidents of voter fraud in any given election? Who is responsible for such incidents? To what extent can such incidents reasonably be asserted to constitute effective interference with the election process?

Neither of you make a compelling case.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2005 02:47 pm
Oh, don't fret none, Set - I held no expectation your viewpoint might change. It appears, however, the report is getting legs; reference to it is beginning to appear elsewhere than in the particularly partisan forae (wherein its received roughly equal representation both Right and Left, with the predictable spins). Its quite possible the attention gained will spur independent research, which, in turn, however it turns out, might just tickle legislators into proactively addressing the glaring flaws of our electoral system.

I must say also that your objections and caveats - essentially just attacking the messenger - do nothing to challenge, let alone diminish the findings of the report.
As to "incarcerated" vs "Convicted" ... now, thats a bit disingenuous. Of course, appeals always have potential, certainly. However, in the St. Louis matter, 4 of the indicted pled guilty and have been sentenced, with lenience given for co-operation in the prosecution of the 5 convicted at trial back in June. Sentencing is to be set for them sometime in August, and, as regards the convictions, so far no appeals have been filed.

Oh, and I never said a similar list of Republican skullduggery didn't exist; an example of which I am unaware well may be out there someplace. As I said, I'd love to see one meeting the qualifications, if it can be found.
0 Replies
 
 

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