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Evidence Mounts That The Vote May Have Been Hacked

 
 
gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 10:46 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
May I suggest you examine Nimh's expertise about polls on this thread? Do that... and you'll likely come back here and say; thank you for correcting me, Nimh.


Occom,

I do not need your opinion of nimh's expertise in the area. I make my own judgments and independently of your advice have determined his views well worth consideration. I doubt that nimh, unlike you, is concerned that I am thinking for myself.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:06 am
Lessee if we can break this down real simple for ya, gozmo.

Polls are nothing more nor less than a means by which an outcome's probability may be estimated at a given level of confidence to lie within a given range ... the "Margin of Error" at the "Confidence Level". Strictly speaking, any separation less than twice the margin of error is "statistically too close to call"; if the MOE is 3%, for instance, and the Confidence Level is 95%, candidate A could poll 51% and candidate B could poll 49%. Now suppose candidate B receives 2% more actual votes than had been projected, while candidate A recieves 2% fewer. Though "Leading by 2 points going into the election", candidate A loses by 1 point, yet the poll projection remains "accurate within the margin of error" ... there was a 95% probability the election would mirror the poll, plus-or-minus 3%, and it did. In fact it did pretty well; it was off by half the margin of error. Without getting into the math of it, there was a 50% chance the election could go either way ... "too close to call".

Now consider that the recorded election results themselves are static; they are as they are. They are recorded, regardless any other consideration. That, by default and by definition, makes them the benchmark. If the polls and exit polls and the recorded results all are congruent with one another within the margin of error of the polls, all likely is well, to a statistical probability approaching certainty. If there is disparity beyond the margin of error, there is cause for closer examination of things.

Exit polling data is dynamic, and cumulative, the collection of the data occurs while the event is in progress, and is subject to skew or error from any number of causes, from weather to the news of the day ... even the time of day ... and the sites, and individuals, selected for the sampling. Lets again suppose early exit polls show candidate A with a 1% advantage, those a bit later the advantage becomes 2%, a while after that its 3%, then its back to 2%, then back up to 3%, then as evening wears on drops to 2%, then 1%, then turns to a 2% disadvantage, and finishes at a 1% advantage. When the actual vote is counted, however, it turns out candidate B actually received 2% more votes than had candidate A. Does that indicate anything untoward? No, not at all; the exit poll data missed the recorded result but remained well within the margin of error; there was always the statistically very significant possibility the race could go either way.

Now, should one candidate have gone into the election with a significantly-beyond-margin-of-error polling lead, and the day's exit polling reflected similar results, yet at the end of the day, the opponent eked out a narrow victory, or worse, be brought a crushing victory through a last-minute surge, it would be right to raise an eyebrow ... and a helluva fuss.

In our most recent election, what the exit polls showed was that, just as the pre-election opinion polls showed, by all the polls the difference between the candidates was too narrow to allow any better than a gut guess at the eventual outcome. From the internals of the exit polls, one could determine within statistically significant probability that x number of y demographic who actually voted APPARENTLY chose one candidate or the other for set z of reasons .... and not a damned thing more. To assume more could be made of the exit polling data ... that a probable winner could be called well before the polls closed, would, to an experienced gambler, be a stupid bet; the uncertainty zone was way too wide for a straight-on unhandicapped wager, one way or the other.

As has been said, "Its not the exit polls; its the stupid". Not understanding polls or probabillity, hopeful, even overconfident dilletantes and wonks lept to encouraging, though unwarranted, conclusions, and found themselves inconvenienced by reality.


But nevermind ... I've got a great idea to smooth things between us. Wanna play cards? Twisted Evil :wink: Laughing
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 02:09 am
Laughing
0 Replies
 
gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 02:09 am
Timber,

Yes mate, I did Statistics for Business and Economics as well, and like the rest of the half educated world can carry on about the +/-3% and the 95% Confidence Level. I think we also have to throw in something about sample size and random selection before we get full marks. That would be great if we were wishing to impress rather than inform the uninitiated but it cuts no mustard with those who know the lingo. I'm not intimidated by lecture 1, semester 1 bullies. I know and I believe you know that exit polls can be used as indicators of the accuracy of counts. I also happen to believe that in this case the exit polls indicate there are no grounds for concern.
0 Replies
 
gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 02:11 am
Are you learning Bill?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:33 am
Sorry, gozmo ... perhaps I was misled by the inference I drew when
You wrote:
Exit polls are a measure of what people have done and, if sampling is random, reliable indicators of the outcome of actual counts.


Apart from all else, a common misperception of the mechanics of polling lies in confusion arising from the myth of "Random". Non-linear dynamics being what they are, things quantifiable may or may not be representative, but in the real world, chaos obviates, indeed outright precludes, the attainment of true randomness.

My point was that absent a statistically significant disparity - which in the instance at discussion was in no way evidenced - a final result is a more accurate benchmark of the accuracy of any projective methodology than would be the converse. That in this discussion to which I take greatest exception is the notion that the exit polling in any way offered any academically, forensically valid basis for criticism of the recorded results. You apparently concur, I acknowledge my error of assessment re your stance in the matter, and apologize for any inconvenience resultant therefrom.

All that said, still, "Its not the exit polls; its the stupid" that occasion and embrace the ludicrous psuedo-flap here being discussed.

If nothing else, Bev Harris et al confirm the folly inherent in overestimating The Public. Mr. Barnum was a most perceptive fellow. And perhaps more to the point, so was Mark Twain, who observed "There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics" Laughing
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:44 am
gozmo wrote:
Are you learning Bill?
Always Gozmo. That's why I come here. Why do you ask? And why the hostility? Your assumption that I am concerned that your are thinking for yourself is unfounded. Comically so.
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 04:59 pm
At this point, we need to wait for more information, there are enough anamolies to make people suspicious, especially when a Karl Rove has a hand in an election. There is no proof yet that the election was fixed. Of course, it took years to uncover the crimes in Watergate, let's just wait and see what the various investigations discover.
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 05:00 pm
Occom, I don't usually agree with you but every time I see your avatar, I smile.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 05:32 pm
Smile
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 06:14 pm
Watergate timeline, just in case anyone would like a refresher:

1972

June 17, 1972: Five men, one of whom says he used to work for the CIA, are arrested at 2:30 a.m. trying to bug the offices of the Democratic National Committee at the Watergate hotel and office complex.

June 19, 1972: A GOP security aide is among the Watergate burglars, The Washington Post reports. Former attorney general John Mitchell, head of the Nixon reelection campaign, denies any link to the operation.

August 1, 1972: A $25,000 cashier's check, apparently earmarked for the Nixon campaign, wound up in the bank account of a Watergate burglar, The Washington Post reports.

September 29, 1972: John Mitchell, while serving as attorney general, controlled a secret Republican fund used to finance widespread intelligence-gathering operations against the Democrats, The Post reports.

October 10, 1972: FBI agents establish that the Watergate break-in stems from a massive campaign of political spying and sabotage conducted on behalf of the Nixon reelection effort, The Post reports.

November 11, 1972: Nixon is reelected in one of the largest landslides in American political history, taking more than 60 percent of the vote and crushing the Democratic nominee, Sen. George McGovern of South Dakota.


1973

January 30, 1973: Former Nixon aides G. Gordon Liddy and James W. McCord Jr. are convicted of conspiracy, burglary and wiretapping in the Watergate incident. Five other men plead guilty, but mysteries remain.

April 30, 1973: Nixon's top White House staffers, H.R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman, and Attorney General Richard Kleindienst resign over the scandal. White House counsel John Dean is fired.

May 18, 1973: The Senate Watergate committee begins its nationally televised hearings. Attorney General-designate Elliot Richardson taps former solicitor general Archibald Cox as the Justice Department's special prosecutor for Watergate.

June 3, 1973: John Dean has told Watergate investigators that he discussed the Watergate cover-up with President Nixon at least 35 times, The Post reports.

June 13, 1973: Watergate prosecutors find a memo addressed to John Ehrlichman describing in detail the plans to burglarize the office of Pentagon Papers defendant Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist, The Post reports.

July 13, 1973: Alexander Butterfield, former presidential appointments secretary, reveals in congressional testimony that since 1971 Nixon had recorded all conversations and telephone calls in his offices.

July 18, 1973: Nixon reportedly orders the White House taping system disconnected.

July 23, 1973: Nixon refuses to turn over the presidential tape recordings to the Senate Watergate committee or the special prosecutor.

October 20, 1973: Saturday Night Massacre: Nixon fires Archibald Cox and abolishes the office of the special prosecutor. Attorney General Richardson and Deputy Attorney General William D. Ruckelshaus resign. Pressure for impeachment mounts in Congress.

November 17, 1973: Nixon declares, "I'm not a crook," maintaining his innocence in the Watergate case.

December 7, 1973: The White House can't explain an 18 1/2 -minute gap in one of the subpoenaed tapes. Chief of staff Alexander Haig says one theory is that "some sinister force" erased the segment.


1974

April 30, 1974: The White House releases more than 1,200 pages of edited transcripts of the Nixon tapes to the House Judiciary Committee, but the committee insists that the tapes themselves must be turned over.

July 24, 1974: The Supreme Court rules unanimously that Nixon must turn over the tape recordings of 64 White House conversations, rejecting the president's claims of executive privilege.

July 27, 1974: House Judiciary Committee passes the first of three articles of impeachment, charging obstruction of justice.

August 8, 1974: Richard Nixon becomes the first U.S. president to resign. Vice President Gerald R. Ford assumes the country's highest office. He will later pardon Nixon of all charges related to the Watergate case.
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 09:09 pm
Harper wrote:
At this point, we need to wait for more information, there are enough anamolies to make people suspicious, especially when a Karl Rove has a hand in an election. There is no proof yet that the election was fixed. Of course, it took years to uncover the crimes in Watergate, let's just wait and see what the various investigations discover.


Yep, it took years to uncover the truth about Watergate, in fact, over thirty years, we are still trying to determine what was said in th 18 minute gap and who Deepthroat is.
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 03:37 am
There's your Pattern... Covert agents, Agencies and operations... all dedicated to subverting the Democratic processes at home, which we then so generously export to the rest of the globe.

The nation with the largest stockpiles of WMDs dares to object to anyone else possessing those very same commodities.

And anyone who notes the inherent hypocrisies becomes targeted; demonized and labelled as an "enemy".

Tsk, tsk, tsk...
0 Replies
 
chriskev
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:34 am
nimh wrote:
kickycan wrote:
This thread is making me sad.

Okay, if you think it's a good idea to make the voting machines more dependable and accountable, I totally agree. I think it's idiotic that these new touch-screen machines don't give a paper record.

But the fraud conspiracy thing...even if someone did cheat to help Bush win, there isn't a paper record! It can't be proven! It is an exercise in frustration to pursue that aspect of this.

And, even if it were to be proven that someone rigged the election, do you really think they would then just kick Bush out and let Kerry take over? Never gonna happen.


Well, and there's the thing about - OK, Bush won by x thousand votes in Ohio and New Mexico. He also won by three million votes nationwide. From what I've seen there's no convincing case to be made that there was enough voter mishaps in Ohio to overcome that lead of x thousand, but suppose for a moment there was. There most surely is not enough evidence of a three million vote margin kind of voter mishaps on a national level. And would you really, after four years of lambasting the "unpresident" for not having gotten the mandate of "the people" and reminiscing that really, Al Gore was the righteous winner because he won the popular vote - after four years of going on like that, would you really now want a court case in Ohio to bring your candidate into the presidency even though he lost the popular vote by a whopping three million votes? Does that seem right?

If the national vote had been a squeaker, I could still have thought it all legit. But in this case, you/we lost the elections clearly; the people have spoken. I know your system is based on the EC and formally speaking, the popular vote don't count for ****, but after four years of going on about it you shouldnt even want the office anymore if you lost it by so much.


Actually, in 2000 it was constantly pointed out that even Al Gore's popular vote win by 500,000+ votes wasn't much. How true is that logic today?

BUSH - 59,459,765
KERRY - 55,949,407

DIFFERENCE - 3,510,358

% OF TOTAL VOTE - 3.04%

3.5 million sounds like a lot, just like 500,000 did in 2000, until you realize it's a very small percentage next to total votes cast.

How easy would it be to 'steal' 3,510,358 votes?

TOTAL PRECINCTS IN 2004: 3,114
TOTAL USING ELECTRONIC: 675

OVERVOTES
With this data, electronic machines in each precinct would have to produce an average of 5,200 extra votes for Bush. Obviously out of 2 precincts, one could produce 0 and one 10,400, but 5,200 per machine would be the target.

VOTE SWAPPING
Vote swapping would be where, randomly, 1 vote for Kerry would be changed into 1 vote for Bush. This would cut the target per electronic machine to 2,600 manipulated votes.

Please keep in mind, I am not saying either of these scenarios occurred. I'm just pointing out that, theoretically, with the number of electronic machines out there, and the two methods I could think up off the top of my head, those are the numbers needed. It isn't a lot.

EDIT: I forgot to point out something a little more frightening. What if every precinct in the US was converted to electronic machines with no paper trail? How easy would it be to produce a 3.5 million difference in votes?

OVERVOTE METHOD: 1,127 extra votes per precinct
SWAP METHOD: 563 swaps per precinct

Sources:
http://www.electiondataservices.com/EDSInc_DREoverview.pdf
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/president/
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:48 am
Harper wrote:
Harper wrote:
At this point, we need to wait for more information, there are enough anamolies to make people suspicious, especially when a Karl Rove has a hand in an election. There is no proof yet that the election was fixed. Of course, it took years to uncover the crimes in Watergate, let's just wait and see what the various investigations discover.


Yep, it took years to uncover the truth about Watergate, in fact, over thirty years, we are still trying to determine what was said in th 18 minute gap and who Deepthroat is.



Frank is deepthroat Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:06 pm
http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/ale04090.html

The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepancy

A BUZZFLASH NEWS ALERT

11/12/04 4:48 PM Update: PDF link goes to version "00l."

BuzzFlash was forwarded a copy of a new research paper (271k PDF) on the exit polls from the 2004 election.

In "The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepancy," Dr. Steven F. Freeman says:

"As much as we can say in social science that something is impossible, it is impossible that the discrepancies between predicted and actual vote counts in the three critical battleground states [Ohio, Florida, and Pennsylvania] of the 2004 election could have been due to chance or random error."

The odds of those exit poll statistical anomalies occurring by chance are, according to Freeman, "250,000,000 to one." That's 250 MILLION to ONE.

He concludes the paper with this:

"Systematic fraud or mistabulation is a premature conclusion, but the election's unexplained exit poll discrepancies make it an unavoidable hypothesis, one that is the responsibility of the media, academia, polling agencies, and the public to investigate."

A BUZZFLASH NEWS ALERT
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:19 pm
Gotta admire your pluck.
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:30 pm
250,000,000 to one.
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:32 pm
Again, a reponse with no substance and without even reading the information posted. What did Twain say about remaining silent...
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:47 pm
Nader calls for US election recounts

Thu Nov 11, 5:13 PM ET

Add to My Yahoo! U.S. National - AFP

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Ralph Nader (news - web sites), an independent presidential candidate, has called for recounts of November 2 voting results, to ensure that every ballot was counted amid allegations of irregularities.

Nader, who this year drew about one percent of the vote nationally, said Wednesday he was speaking out for the "thousands" of US voters asking for recounts and not on his own behalf.

"Over 2,000 citizens, including voting rights advocates, are urging, in writing, the Nader Camejo campaign to help make sure every vote is counted and counted accurately. The Nader-Camejo campaign does not view the election to be over merely because concession speeches, which have no legal effect, have been given. Rather, they are over when every vote is counted and legally certified," Nader said.

He urged recounts particularly in the hotly disputed states of Ohio and Florida, which went to Bush, New Hampshire which went to Kerry, and North Carolina, which went to Bush.

"Striking inconsistencies exist between the vote as reported on the AccuVote Diebold Machines and exit polls and voting trends in New Hampshire. These irregularities in the reported vote count favor president George W. Bush by five to 15 percent over what was expected.

"Problems in these electronic voting machines and optical scanners are being reported in machines in a variety of states," Nader added.

However, Democrats said there was no need to challenge the outcome.

"Unlike 2000, the Republicans simply received more votes than Democrats in this election," said Democratic National Committee (news - web sites) Chairman Terry McAuliffe in a statement.

"We are not contesting the outcome of this election.

"But, win, lose or draw, the Democratic party feels that every vote is a voice, and to that end, we are committed to ensuring that every vote cast in 2004 be counted," he said.

Bev Harris, author of a book, "Black Box Voting," has for years questioned US voting procedures, including the 2004 vote, which she said was particularly questionable in Ohio, the state that tipped the scales toward Bush's victory.

She said she plans to take advantage of an Ohio law that allows a group of no less than five citizens to demand a recount.

Rumors of fraud have been circulating in this state, and news out of the region has added fuel to the fire. A computer error gave Bush 4,258 votes and 260 to Kerry -- although just 638 voters had cast ballots. The local election committee said later that the count was rectified.

Other states with disputed results, North Carolina, New Hampshire and Florida, once again questioned after being the cause of a 36-day delay in counting ballots in 2000.

Nader said he had already begun the procedure to demand a recount in New Hampshire, where Bush won an unexpected number of votes.
0 Replies
 
 

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