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Evidence Mounts That The Vote May Have Been Hacked

 
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:34 pm
Dammit, Nimh, how am I gonna get these people all fighting again if you come in here with good solid evidence?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:35 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
mctag writes
Quote:
btw PM Blair (in todays Queen's Speech, a government policy statement) has evidently decided to use the tactic that worked so well for his friend George: exaggerate security risk for political gain.


In all due respect, when terrorist murderers crash passenger liners into the heart of London or Edinburgh destroying major landmarks and killing 3000 or so people, you will have more credibility lecturing George Bush and/or his supporters on how much the security risk has been exaggerated.



"They brought down two buildings, and look, I smashed two countries flat. Be careful they don't target another one of our buildings, while I decide which country to go for next. And vote for me, the man of peace. I can keep the country safer, better."
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:36 pm
Go, mctag, go!
Go, mctag, go!
Go, mctag, go!



See, kicky, it's gonna be ok.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:37 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
mctag writes
Quote:
btw PM Blair (in todays Queen's Speech, a government policy statement) has evidently decided to use the tactic that worked so well for his friend George: exaggerate security risk for political gain.


In all due respect, when terrorist murderers crash passenger liners into the heart of London or Edinburgh destroying major landmarks and killing 3000 or so people, you will have more credibility lecturing George Bush and/or his supporters on how much the security risk has been exaggerated.


Well, I say the security risks have been exaggerated for political gain.

Anyone remember Cheney saying that we'd be bombed if the "right" candidate was not elected?
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:38 pm
ehBeth wrote:
Go, mctag, go!
Go, mctag, go!
Go, mctag, go!



See, kicky, it's gonna be ok.


Yay!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:39 pm
Flattened two countries? And you accuse George Bush of exaggerating?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:44 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Flattened two countries? And you accuse George Bush of exaggerating?


Hyperbole in a political debate and lying to your constituents are hardly on the same level, there, Fox. Try again.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:56 pm
MerlinsGodson wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
mctag writes
Quote:
btw PM Blair (in todays Queen's Speech, a government policy statement) has evidently decided to use the tactic that worked so well for his friend George: exaggerate security risk for political gain.


In all due respect, when terrorist murderers crash passenger liners into the heart of London or Edinburgh destroying major landmarks and killing 3000 or so people, you will have more credibility lecturing George Bush and/or his supporters on how much the security risk has been exaggerated.


Well, I say the security risks have been exaggerated for political gain.

Anyone remember Cheney saying that we'd be bombed if the "right" candidate was not elected?


That's not what he said. He said if Kerry was elected, we'd be bombed (which would happen whether either candidate was elected), and we'd go back to the old law enforcement type of thinking in our approach to terrorism. That was his point - that we'd go back to the old mentality if the wrong candidate were elected - not that we'd be bombed because Kerry was elected.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:58 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Flattened two countries? And you accuse George Bush of exaggerating?

Yeah, the first one was already flattened.
0 Replies
 
gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 04:47 pm
mesquite wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Flattened two countries? And you accuse George Bush of exaggerating?

Yeah, the first one was already flattened.


Yep, Afghanistan was a reconstruction.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 04:59 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
MerlinsGodson wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
mctag writes
Quote:
btw PM Blair (in todays Queen's Speech, a government policy statement) has evidently decided to use the tactic that worked so well for his friend George: exaggerate security risk for political gain.


In all due respect, when terrorist murderers crash passenger liners into the heart of London or Edinburgh destroying major landmarks and killing 3000 or so people, you will have more credibility lecturing George Bush and/or his supporters on how much the security risk has been exaggerated.


Well, I say the security risks have been exaggerated for political gain.

Anyone remember Cheney saying that we'd be bombed if the "right" candidate was not elected?


That's not what he said. He said if Kerry was elected, we'd be bombed (which would happen whether either candidate was elected), and we'd go back to the old law enforcement type of thinking in our approach to terrorism. That was his point - that we'd go back to the old mentality if the wrong candidate were elected - not that we'd be bombed because Kerry was elected.


Ooo... nice spin. :wink:
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 06:11 pm
parados wrote:
A quick check of the exit polling from VNS in 2000 showed a different story from what this table claimed. [..] In actuality the VNS exit polls were within .1% for each candidate and had the difference between their percentages correct. This raises serious questions about the statements made by the author. If his numbers are innaccurate then his conclusions are no more accurate than his numbers.


Nah, his numbers are not inaccurate, they just refer to something different. (It's OK, I initially got confused on this one too, just ask Foxfyre who I repeatedly wrongly hit over the head on this score before I found out myself ;-))

How it works is like this: over the course of the day, more and more numbers are added from the pollsters out in the precincts and updated into sets of raw exit poll data that are sent to the networks (and this year, leaked out to the blog community by Slate and Drudge). The mid-day raw data are usually the furthest out of synch with what the real results will turn out to be, but as further numbers come in the exit poll data usually get more correct. Also, in the course of the day the exit poll company might already apply weightings if it finds that certain population groups are under- or overrepresented in the samples, which will also make the data more correct. However, even so they remain a "blunt tool", as someone in that article I linked in noted, and usually end up quite a bit off. The degree to which they still ended off is recorded in the table I just linked in.

Now what happens then, at the end of the day, once the actual election results are mostly in, is they re-weigh the exit poll results, and make them fit the actual election results by proportionally multiplying/dividing the numbers. Say, the exit poll totals said D56/R44 and the actual results turn out to be D53/R47, they then recalculate all the exit poll numbers to fit the real results. And those are the numbers published online (and the ones you now refer to).

Now why do they do this, you may ask, does it not amount to falsifying the numbers? Well, they do it because exit polls are not intended as a way to double-guess the actual election results. They were devised as a tool to analyse the actual election results, in terms of their breakdown by demographic and political group. And the only way you can say something credible about how, say, Afro-Americans or regular church-goers voted in the elections, is if your total numbers do actually fit the actual election results. Hence how they weigh them into conformity with them and why the exit polls you now find online about 2000 or 2004 are within 0,1% of the actual results.

E.g., Freeman, the analyst who tried to substantiate the case for fraud by pointing to discrepancies between the initial exit poll raw data and the recorded election results could only do so because he quickly screensaved the exit poll data from the CNN site late in the evening, just before they were taken offline and later replaced by reweighed exit poll numbers that fitted the actual election results.

It's complicated stuff, it's true - I'm also just learning as I'm reading. For example, I have several times here asserted that exit polls are conducted by polling voters in a selected set of precincts that historically have turned out to provide a representative cross-cut of the state's electorate. I have used that as an argument why the raw exit poll data may have underestimated some voter groups this year (eg, conservatives), noting that one election's set of representative precincts may turn out not to be representative at all in a next election as turnout increases or decreases variably from one population group to another. Alas, turns out thats bull. The exit polls do not use some historically-based selection of precincts; they use a totally random set of precincts. (Thought I'd set the record straight before it comes back to haunt me ... ;-))
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 08:12 pm
Nimh,
Well your answer does clear some things up it still doesn't provide the source for the neat little table used to prove a point. Without a source to check it is meaningless.

Early exit poll results are as meaningless as early returns. If only one exit pollster has reported in it is no better than only one precint having reported a vote count. The question I have and still have is where is the source for the claimed results of those exit polls. Which exit polling firm was used? I can't check facts if I don't have a source. The dataset for 2000 is available with all the raw numbers but I haven't yet pulled it up to look at it.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 08:39 pm
parados wrote:
Nimh,
Well your answer does clear some things up it still doesn't provide the source for the neat little table used to prove a point. Without a source to check it is meaningless.


Just above the table in the linked page there is another link that opens a PDF file. In that PDF file the author refers to the "National Election
Pool (NEP) exit poll" as his source for his numbers. My understanding is that NEP either replaced or used to be the "Voter News Service" (VNS).

Prior year VNS poll results can be found here.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 09:52 pm
I checked out the PDF. Funny, since that article seems to confirm my point. The article points out that weighting occurs 3 ways, 2 of them as the numbers come in and before they are reported. The 3rd one is the one that makes final adjustments to conform to final results.

Let me quote from the PDF article by Ruy Teixeira from shortly after he provides that table.
"Now these unweighted numbers from past years do not, admittedly correspond to where we were in the weighting process on election night..."

Since we don't know how the numbers were weighted we can't use them in comparison to the unweighted numbers. To compare one to the other is false logic. Just because a conclusion makes sense it doesn't mean the logic used to get to it was accurate.

As for Freeman's claim that the exit polls show fraud. I doubt that as well. I believe it was Conan Doyle speaking through Sherlocks Holmes that once said, "When you remove the impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable must be the explanation." While it might be improbable for the exit polls to be off it is possible and based on the reported increase in evangelicals that voted it would point to initial weighting being innacurate. (Initial weighting is done based on prior elections. So a change in the makeup of voter turnout will cause problems.) That does not however prove that unweighted numbers are the same as weighted numbers nor does it provide any evidence of exit polls in the past always being more likely to show dems winning after they have been weighted.

So when Nimh made this statement it was logically innacurate since he is comparing weighted numbers to unweighted ones.
Quote:
Basically, the notorious "discrepancies" this year that had the actual results so much worse for Democrat Kerry than the exit polls would have suggested, were SMALLER than the ones in the four preceding elections. So either the Republican voter fraud has systematically been taking place all these years, also when there were no electronic voting machines yet,
It is entirely possible that Freeman made a similar error in comparing fully weighted numbers from prior years to partially weighted ones from 2004. (Thanks Nimh for pointing out that weighting fact on prior year numbers.)
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 10:02 pm
Well, gee, nimh. That sounds like shooting an arrow and running out and painting a bullseye around it. Not even implying that isn't how it's done, but it seems pointless.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 11:15 pm
Well, lessee here - Anick, a former Associate Professor of Mathematics and a current Professor of Business Studies, Freeman, applying flawed methodology to incomplets data, independently but similarly hypothecate in resonance with vote-fraud conspiracy theorist/self-proclaimed investigative journalist Bev Harris, who possesses no relevant academic credentials whatsoever and whose book propounding her theory is somewhere just inside Amazon's top 200,000, and then all of a sudden the vast conspiracy of internationally reknowned pollsters, impecably credentialed political scientists, professional and academic statisticians, crack investigative reporters from every arm of the press and media, legions of Democratic Party lawyers, the Democratic National Committee, and the Democratic Party's Presidential Candidate immediately stonewall these important findings, seeking for their own inscrutable purpose to discredit fiercely partisan bloggers and demoralize the Democatic Party Faithful who seek valiantlly to carry on the fight to regain what is rightfully theirs.


Is that about it?
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 11:31 pm
My God, is that only one sentence?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 11:42 pm
I count two.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2004 06:02 am
parados wrote:
That does not however prove that unweighted numbers are the same as weighted numbers nor does it provide any evidence of exit polls in the past always being more likely to show dems winning after they have been weighted.

No, the point was that the unweighted exit poll numbers have in the past (16 years) always showed higher numbers for the Dems than they actually turned out to get. Remember that many posters in this thread (I don't know if you actually read up) have at various times argued their suspicions of fraud on the fact that the exit poll data as it was released at various times in the day showed such "discrepancies" with the actually recorded results. At least the first batch of said exit poll data from during the day, quoted as proof here, was however unweighted (or at least has been referred to as "raw data" in their various sources). That this raw data showed better results for the Dems than the actual results turned out to be is thus not a priori suspicious, because as the table shows, this holds true for all the last four elections.

As for Freeman's table of data that he saved from the CNN website just before they were replaced with conformised data, the truth is we just dont know whether they were already at least partially weighted or not. The Washington Monthly article that goes with the table actually already explicits that, noting: "while the 1988-2000 results above are completely raw and unweighted, we don't know for sure if the 2004 results that Freeman lists in his paper are also completely raw. They may already be partially weighted, in which case we'd expect them to be more accurate than the stuff from past years." And so they were - slightly more accurate than the raw data of previous years, but still showing the Dems better off than they turned out to be when the actual results came out, and (as the comparison with the NEP guy's statement shows) quite consistently so across the country. The really quite interesting Mystery Pollster (Blumenthal) article on the matter that I already linked in above as well specifies this already too: "Given how late they appeared on the CNN website, they are presumably weighted by actual turnout, although absent confirmation from the National Election Pool (NEP) we will never know for certain."

Ergo, we don't know whether, as you claim, I was "comparing weighted numbers to unweighted ones". What we do know is that the numbers Freeman used were pre-final weighting - pre- the weighting that would conformise them to fit with the actual results. And thats basically all we know about them. So if one is to choose between comparing them with the 2000 exit pollls as they are online now, fully weighted into conformity with the actual results, like you did, or with the raw data from previous elections' exit polls, like the table I linked in did, it's the former that seems the worse fit. Either Freeman's data, like that listed for previous elections in the table, was still a reflection of raw numbers - in which case the discrepancies this year were actually smaller than in previous years; or they were already partially weighted, in which case we don't have a clue whether they were smaller or comparable or whatnot, but there's in any case no proof that they were any larger.

So let me slightly adapt (in red) my original statement to make it still correct:

Quote:
Basically, the notorious "discrepancies" this year that had the actual results so much worse for Democrat Kerry than the exit polls would have suggested, were in fact probably SMALLER than the ones in the four preceding elections, or in any case not demonstrably larger. So either the Republican voter fraud has systematically been taking place all these years, also when there were no electronic voting machines yet, also when they were fighting an elections that they were clearly going to lose anyway (like in 96) -- or there is an alternative explanation for the country-wide consistent Dem skew in the exit polls than the fraud one.
0 Replies
 
 

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