Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

Don't suppose that has anything to do with the Nationalization of the railroad industry in many parts of Europe?

<ducks>

nah, I'm just kidding

Cycloptichorn

It might, no need to duck.

However, we have been paying Amtrac enormous subsidies for about 12 years and it hasn't helped much yet . I suspect the real drivers are the high taxes on gasoline in Europe, and the relative priority they gave to investment in rail transport after WWII compared to what happened here - comparable investments in roads and highways.

However the differences between the European rail networks and the quality of their passenger service, compared to ours are enormous, and the subject merits study.

Whether or not European governments have a head for the rail transport business, America's experience with Amtrack and Conrail do little to convince anyone The US Government has any business operatin' a business. The US Post Office is anther shinin' example of governmental business excellence; 75 years ago, it cost a nickle to send a letter via airmail from LA to New York, and sender-to-recipient transit time was around 3 to 5 days. A phone call between the two cities required at least a couple operators, took several minutes to connect, and cost a couple bucks for 3 minutes. Today, its 37¢ for the letter, transit time is the same, and you can dial the call yourself, connect in seconds, and talk for around a nickle a minute.

All governments have trouble running businesses well. The largely government-owned corporation that designs France's TGVs and other rail applications required large infusions of government money to stave off financial collapse.

However the differences in the quality and effectiveness of the European rail systems compared to ours are so enormous that the question of how they do it does merit investigation on our part. I don't really know how great are the government subsidies that are provided for these systems, or if imitating them is either feasible or worth the cost. However Eurpopean rail service is quite impressive.

Not to be nitpicky, Timber, but given the fact that inflation has caused our monies to devalue quite a bit in the last 75 years, couldn't it be argued that the postal services performs the exact same level of services, cheaper, than it did 75 years ago?

According to the calculator I found here:

http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/Research/data/us/calc/

The equivalent of a 1930 nickel is now 58 cents. The post is remarkably cheap these days when ya factor inflation in.

Also, how many more packages/letters are sent today then there were in 1930? The system must have grown quite a bit.

Not to be nitpicky, but I don't think the USPS underperforms as much as ya say it does.

Cycloptichorn

they get the job done, one way or another, for hard packages and those who still prefer to send a handwritten letter.

email has taken some toll on volume, so yeah, pricing would go up a little.

i guess we could go back to drums and smoke signals.

as for trains... it's amazing that the usa is just about the only modern industrialed country with shite public rail. it would really cut down on the need for gasoline.

that's probably the whole point.

Decent nit-pickin', Cyc, and I stipulate your point. I s'pose insteada the nickle airmail tariff, I shoulda used the 2¢ 1930 regular postage rate and its just-about-as-comparable, then-typical 3-to-7-day coast-to-coast transit time to better effect, and I certainly shall do so from now on. Thanks.

And in fairness, I'll say our postal system does get the mail through, reliably and in timely manner. In some of the "Developed World", the government-run postal system leaves a bit to be desired in that regard. Italy comes immediatelately to mind. A trans-national European long-distance phone call can be a little less simple and a bit more costly than a coast-to-coast US phone call, too.

I wonder if it is an area that can really be improved on that much, given the volume.

The travel times are pretty standard, I guess; Hell, even the Mongols could get a letter across their empire in a week with their post system, so we haven't progressed very much in the last, oh, millenia, I'd say

I used to do assistant work in game and tree theory at UT Austin, and routing letters and packages (the 'Travelling Salesman Problem') was still a hotly contested and emerging science. It's strange to think, but it is not immediately obvious to figure out the best paths for the carriers (trains, planes etc.) to take, especially on a budget. In fact, the problems get incredibly complex, especially on a large scale, so it isn't surprising to me that we really can't get past the 3-7 day period in transit time; we haven't figured the theories out completely yet!

I think that while phone companies have made giant strides in the last 75 years (I'm holding in my hand what basically amounts to a Star Trek Communicator; crazy stuff) they have the distinct advantage of technology to help them out... There's only a limited amount of technology we've figured out forphysically carrying a package from one place to the other(with no real changes in at least 80 years), whereas the only limit on communications is the speed of light, some fiber-optic cable and the power of computers; a rapidly evolving science in the last 65 years, computers....

Back to the original line of discussion, I think there are a variety of reasons why Amtrac does not, with excessive gov't subsidies actually contributing to their downfall by subsidizing their flawed business model for years.

I think one of the major problems with ol' Amtrac is after a while, it was stuck in the middle; not quite private, not quite gov't, it languished in a muddled area that didn't allow for upgrades and strategic improvement during the period when the Automobile choked it to death by making cars affordable to - well, everyone.

Do you think it is possible, Timber/anyone, for the US to have a Nation-spanning rail system, connecting the major cities at the very least? In a reasonable time-frame?

I can imagine riding a bullet train or maglev from Austin to D.C. It would be a pretty fast trip; According to Google Maps it's about 1400 miles between the two; at a conservative 200 miles an hour, that's 7, let's say 8 hours. And a relaxing trip at that. I could easily spend a weekend at the Smithsonian and be back in time for work on Monday morning.

I certainly agree with previous posters that it is worth discussing.

Cheers

Cycloptichorn

Good points, Cyc. I think our national rail system - at least passenger rail - largely is a national disgrace. I'd love to see emergin' rail technology widely deployed in The US, but I fear the national obsession with the private automobile precludes any such development in the near-to-foreseeable-mid-term. Mebbe later this century things might get rollin' that way. Prolly not though. Pity.

One thing I love about travelling in America are those marvellous Amtrak coast-to-coast trains! They are so big.... and you can actually enjoy the landscape sitting in the lounge car! It's not just a blur, like when you're on these TGV, AVE, Eurostar, ICE,... high speed trains. It's so relaxing! And the trains are never full, so there's more than enough room for everybody! Splendid! I hope they don't just disappear anytime soon....

The law of unintended consequences strikes again, maybe? Large rises in gas prices may change public opinion quicker than we ever thought it would; especially if things get bad...

Cycloptichorn

Somethin' to consider re the "Gasoline Price Crisis": Through the gas-crunch era of the mid-to-late 70's, the price of gasoline more than tripled, and continued to climb into and through the '80's, while auto sales hit record levels year after year. In 1946, the nominal price of a gallon of gas was 25¢. Adjustin' for inflation, and allowin' for the difference in average work-week over the intervenin' time, today, we'd have to be payin' somewhere over $4 a gallon to break even with that.

I just checked.... today's price is about 1,17€ per liter, that's, uhm, about $5,80 a gallon!? How much do you pay, timb?

Right now, locally, its about $2.25 - $2.30, a little less closer to cities.

$2.33, and I live smack in the middle of nowhere.

I betchya I'm nowhere - er than you, Lash: I gotta drive almost half a mile to hit pavement

nowhere are you, Lash? (If you wanna tell, that is...)

Heck, you guys are paying something like 47 cents a liter... How much do your cars use?

We're doing good here on the southwestern high desert then: $2.15 today