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Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 07:22 am
...and read this, please, everyone

Here's a quote from Family Research Council's page
Quote:
States Overwhelmingly Support Marriage Amendments

This year marriage has been a key issue across the states. FRC has worked diligently at the state and local level to ensure marriage remains the union of one man and one woman. We are proud to report today that the latest numbers indicate overwhelming support for the protection of traditional marriage.


And here's what is actually going on, from Thomas Oliphant at The Boston Globe
Quote:
The gay marriage deception

WASHINGTON
THE NEWS media have grossly misreported the contents of state referendum questions targeting Americans who are apparently seen as more dangerous to national security than John Kerry -- gay people.

Using unthinking shorthand that carries out the hidden agendas of the people who want gays banished to the fringes of society, the press has over and over again referred to these measures as banning gay marriage. In fact that is only accurate regarding three of the 11 initiatives passed last week.

In state after state -- most prominently in Ohio (which Bush barely won) and in Michigan (which he nearly did) -- these referendums went far beyond the question of who gets to be formally married. They also banned legal and other conventions incidental to marriage, which are central to the evolving institutions of civil unions and domestic partnerships.

For political reasons, it was central to the hidden agendas of the groups pushing these restrictions (the target is homosexuality, not relationships between homosexuals) that they not become the focus of the debate.

Therefore marriage was used as the cover for the far more consequential effort to strip contractual rights from gay couples who have formed hundreds of thousands of families in recent years across the United States.

That is why proponents described them repeatedly as efforts to ban gay or same-sex marriage, a formulation the press has mindlessly repeated. It reminds me of the success of groups who spent nearly a decade on behalf of banning a rare pregnancy procedure, the name for which was invented solely for political and shock-value purposes -- partial-birth abortion. Again, the press's lazy penchant for a catch phrase, unexamined for accuracy, led reporters and editors to mindlessly repeat the phrase.

The point about that phony campaign -- already rejected once by federal judges of all stripes, including the Supreme Court, and back in the courts now -- was to use the shock value of the procedure to create a ban written to cover all three trimesters of pregnancy without an exception to preserve a woman's health, in other words to challenge Roe v. Wade and abortion rights themselves.

Just for the record, the three states whose initiatives last week refer only to the granting of marriage licenses are Montana, Oregon (the one place where the vote was very close), and Mississippi. The states that used marriage as a cover to mount an assault on contractual relationships of all kinds were Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, and Utah.

In pivotal Ohio, for example, the voters may not have realized it but they voted to strip people of the right to contractually arrange distribution of assets, child custody, pensions, and other employment benefits. They most definitely were not "protecting" marriage; they were attacking gay people. That is why the political and business establishment there, including Republicans, opposed the measure.

The evidence is that the voters who approved it also opposed its actual contents. In the official exit poll Tuesday night, 27 percent of the voters said they support full marriage rights, 35 percent supported civil unions, and only 27 percent oppose any legal rights for same-sex couples. In other words, to underline the importance of artifice and deception in our sound-bite culture, the voters approved a measure opposed substantively by 62 percent of the very same voters.

President Bush embodies this incoherence while he manipulates the sentiments cynically. Just before the election he tried to say he supports the rights of states to have civil unions, though he would have opposed them as governor of Texas. He also supports a federal constitutional amendment that would both limit "marriage" to man-woman couples and permit states to ban civil unions.

The incoherence was tactical. Bush knew fair-minded supporters of civil unions were going to vote for him (according to the exit polls, up to half did); but he also knew he needed to keep his base of bigots happy, too -- hence his campaign's alliance with them at the grass roots in places like Ohio.

The irony is that a federal amendment is probably necessary for the pro-discrimination forces to succeed.

Many states have laws to keep groups from putting two issues in the same referendum, in order to avoid exactly the kind of deception that has occurred. In fact, injunctive relief on that ground has already been granted in states that passed such initiatives earlier. In addition, they directly challenge both the contract and the equal protection clauses of the US Constitution.

The federal amendment does not have the votes, even in the new Congress, and my hunch is that Bush doesn't have the stomach to truly fight for discrimination. He was, however, willing to benefit from the deception this year, and a lazy news media played right into the hands of those who would officially sanction discrimination.


Thomas Oliphant's e-mail address is [email protected].
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 07:26 am
Dobson (Focus on the Family) said he was also soured on Specter by the senator's support for embryonic stem cell research and his opposition to the Supreme Court nomination of conservative Robert Bork in 1987.

A coalition of religious pro-life groups is also against Senators appointing Specter as chairman of the Committee. Backed by national pro-life leaders Troy Newman of Operation Rescue, Rev. Pat Mahoney of the Christian Defense Coalition, Rev. Rob Schenck of Faith and Action, and Chris Slattery, a Catholic pro-life, pro-family activist from New York City, the coalition is planning a "pray-in" at the Dirksen Senate Office building on Nov. 16 and possibly inside the office of Sen. Bill Frist, to ask that Specter not be given the position.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 07:35 am
And all of this points to a strategy which I think the Dems must undertake.

1) Encourage the formation of a conservative right third party.

2) Play by the necessary rules and refer to them always as 'conservative right' 'or radical conservatives'. The fact is that the target groups are nearly 100% radical Christian in membership and administration, but to indicate this truth is to allow the certainty that criticisms of their policies will be labelled as anti-Christian, thus diverting the discussion away from actually policy.

If successful, such a split would severely damage the present domination by Republicans. For dems or liberals, that in itself is a plus. But an even bigger plus is that it would remove an extremist element from the reigns of power in the country.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 07:43 am
For some reason, any mention of "lovely bits" in connection with a news source brings to mind Page 3 of The UK's Biggest Selling Newspaper
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:01 am
I've never written about this before, nor thought of it much in political terms, but I seem to remember statistics quoted (The Kinsey Report?) saying that at any given point in time, 20% of the population were homosexual.

If this is so, and if a goodly proportion of these want to be in a stable domestic relationship, and if a proportion of these want their relationship to be consecrated by the church, going as far as calling it a marriage....what harm does it do?

No doubt bible-thumpers can find something in the Old Testament against it, but Christianity is not Old Testament. There are things in there against almost everything.

Yours, backing away from the hornets' nest, McT
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:10 am
I think it's probably good politics, the Republicans have been most successful when they can mobilize the Christian right in ways that aren't visible to the general public.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:10 am
I dunno, Thomas, segregation is but one measure.

I think the terms need to be defined first -- Cycloptichorn backed away from "systemic", so what are we left with? That the south is racist? That the south is more racist than the north?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:13 am
Blatham wrote:
Using unthinking shorthand that carries out the hidden agendas of the people who want gays banished to the fringes of society, the press has over and over again referred to these measures as banning gay marriage. In fact that is only accurate regarding three of the 11 initiatives passed last week.

In state after state -- most prominently in Ohio (which Bush barely won) and in Michigan (which he nearly did) -- these referendums went far beyond the question of who gets to be formally married. They also banned legal and other conventions incidental to marriage, which are central to the evolving institutions of civil unions and domestic partnerships.

There were a lot of ballots on gay marriage on November 2, there were a lot of media outlets reporting about it, so I can't possibly reality-check all of them. But I did check the wording of the amendment for the state of Ohio, which the article itself highligths several times. The wording of the amendment reads:

Quote:
"Only a union between one man and one woman may be a marriage valid in or recognized by this state and its political subdivisions. This state and its political subdivisions shall not create or recognize a legal status for relationships of unmarried individuals that intends to approximate the design, qualities, significance or effect of marriage."
Source

So the amendment says nothing about "legal and other conventions incidental to marriage". The wording does allow these things, as long as they "don't intend to approximate the design, quality, significance or effect of marriage". What precisely that means is open to interpretation by judges. In any case, I find nothing wrong with the press calling this a "gay marriage ban", and I disagree when Mr. Oliphant calls this "unthinking shorthand that carries out the hidden agendas of the people who want gays banished to the fringes of society".

My impression is that when Mr. Oliphant wrote this article, he was in a state of denial. He wanted to believe that people are good and that they would have voted the way he wanted them to if they had known what they were doing. Therefore he had to believe that people were being misled, and the evil conservative media conspiracy was the obvious candidate to blame for the misleading. [EDIT: remove needlessly sarcastic remark about Mr. Oliphant]
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:36 am
Thomas,

Whenever I've been in the South, I have found, in my subjective experience, many more instances of racism and prejudice than I find in New York City, for instance.

I see many more instances, daily of respectful interchange between blacks and whites in NYC than in Southern states. In the South, in my experience, the opposite is true. Blacks and whites treat each other more as equals here.

So how do we explain the difference in my perception and what would seem, on the surface, to be indicated in your statistics?

I think we need more information about the differences in blacks and whites in order to make a judgement about the level of racial prejudice, or to compare the two geographic areas.

So what other variables would we need to know about in order to use the table above in judging prevalence of racism?

Several come to mind, off the top of my head.

1. Percentage of blacks relative to whites in those cities.
2. The income level of those families or individuals on those streets which are integrated.
3. The cost of living in these cities.

What I'm saying is that the stats above are not enough to conclude, as you have, that there's more racial discrimination or racism in the Southern States vs. the Northern ones. Except that Orange County is neither. So are you suggesting that there's less racial prejudice in the red states as opposed to the blue ones?

If you are, then I don't believe it. There's something wrong about that conclusion. We don't have enough data. I would say that statistics about income level, adjusted for cost of living, would be a better measure.

However, even this would not prove much about the attitudes of those living in Red states vs. Blue. How to test for attitude? Have there been such studies? I don't know and I haven't the time to look it up.

Recognizing the absence of a measure for attitude, the additional information I've suggested above would be a better measure to use when making a judgement on this question.

My guess is that there is at least very little difference in the red vs. blue, if not more in red ones. The map of red/blue voters in 2004 does, I'm guessing, coincide with prevalence of racial prejudice. It certainly reflects the tolerance of slavery at the time of the civil war. I'm also guessing it coincides with an overall resistance to change. But without the stats, I have to admit that I'm only making a somewhat educated guess based on my experience.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:39 am
sozobe wrote:
I dunno, Thomas, segregation is but one measure.

I agree. But it was the measure Finn d'Abuzz chose to make his case on, and Cycloptichorn attacked. And the choice of living next to somebody else is voluntary -- unlike in in the case of school desagregation, the government doesn't intervene into your choice of house or apartment. So when more Southerners than Northerners choose to live near someone of a different race, that tells us something real and important about changing attitudes on race. I, for sure, was very surprised when I read this Economist article, and I would have expected the pattern to be reversed.

The reason I am pointing this out is to reinforce a point I made earlier in this thread. When I visited both Republican and Democratic campaign stands during my recent trip to the US, I received these very strong vibes that the activists there knew exactly what was going on, the other side was totally clueless, and all this was so obvious it wasn't even worth bothering to check the facts. It was perfectly safe to take the account' of one's favorite Op-Ed columnist, as reported in the account of ones favorite talk radio host, as reported in one's favorite blog.

I don't seem to be getting such a strong sense of reality-resistance when I visit German campaign stands. I think this is very dangerous, and that it's a big problem on both sides. But this is the Democrats' "What can we do to fix it?" thread, so I'm pointing out cases of Democratic reality resistence -- especially the meme about "we need to enlighten the benighted people in the red states who, unlike us, don't really know what they're doing. Then we'll win elections again."
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:49 am
My first reaction is to wholeheartedly agree with you. My second is that this smacks a little bit of the "and now Ann Coulter with her evidence that the world is flat" equal time syndrome. The PIPA survey showed significant denial of reality in a way that reasonably had a major impact on the election. The segregation in the South thing is about two posters here, one of whom said not much more (dys) and one of whom backed away from "systemic" (Cycloptichorn.) Are those really equivalent?

I completely, completely agree about the dangers of the "enlightenment" concept. At the same time, I DO think the PIPA survey highlights a real problem that should be dealt with... somehow. (I don't know how.)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:55 am
Lola wrote:
What I'm saying is that the stats above are not enough to conclude, as you have, that there's more racial discrimination or racism in the Southern States vs. the Northern ones.

What I actually said was "Surprisingly, the South is less segregated, not more segregated than the North these days." And that is empirical data from two credible, independent, non-partisan sources, not a conclusion on my part.

Lola wrote:
So are you suggesting that there's less racial prejudice in the red states as opposed to the blue ones?

To be honest, I'm not quite sure what to think, and I'm not suggesting anything at this point. But when I see something that conflicts with my preconceptions, I conclude that my preconceptions are probably wrong. In this case, I saw credible data that Northerners avoid living on the same block as someone of a different race to a much higher degree than Southerners do, and I conclude that my preconceptions of Southerners as racist conservatives and Northerners as openminded liberals was probably wrong.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:56 am
Here's a copy of a part of the most recent e-mail from the Family Research Council. I can't post a link because this is an email sent to contributors.

Quote:
The Committee of Committees


There has been some question as to why the battle over the Senate Judiciary Committee chairmanship is so important for social conservatives. It comes down to the simple fact that the chairman of a committee controls the schedule, staff, and philosophy of the committee. The Judiciary Committee is of critical importance because it is there that federal judges, nominees to the Supreme Court, and nominees for the position of attorney general are vetted and given or denied a vote before the full Senate. The chairman, in setting the schedule and agenda for the committee, can also stop legislation from moving to the full Senate.

The prospect of Chairman Specter in the Judiciary Committee is a real and present threat to pro-life judges and to pivotal legislation like the marriage amendment. A constitutional amendment on marriage is best served by going through the Senate Judiciary Committee, and a Chairman Specter could wield enough power to obstruct its passage or significantly help its passage. We know Arlen Specter is hostile to pro-life judges, and he has said that he would have voted against the marriage amendment earlier this year if given the opportunity. The committee is simply too important for the issues that won elections last week to put in Specter's control. Let the committee know you want a different chairman.


Additional Resources
Let the Battle Begin
http://www.frc.org/index.cfm?i=AL04K01&f=WU04K09&t=e

Promoting Covenant Marriage


This week, Governor Mike Huckabee of Arkansas is flying around his state inviting 1,000 couples to enter into covenant marriage during a mass ceremony on Valentine's Day. The Governor and his wife will convert their 30-year marriage to a covenant marriage at the event. Huckabee said he doesn't mind using state money to promote this event, because "we're spending an enormous amount of money dealing with the consequences of marriages that don't work out."

We applaud Gov. Huckabee's efforts to promote covenant marriage, because no-fault divorce has weakened the institution of marriage and devastated millions of families. No-fault divorce laws allow a spouse to file for or obtain a divorce for any reason without obtaining the consent of the other spouse, rendering powerless the spouse who wants to preserve the marriage. When I was a Louisiana state representative, I authored the first covenant marriage law, which gives couples a choice between two types of marriage licenses: the standard marriage license and the covenant marriage license. The standard marriage license allows no-fault divorce for any reason, while covenant marriage requires premarital counseling and longer waiting periods or proof of fault before divorce. We need more covenant marriage laws to help protect marriage.


Here's one entry from FRC's web page:

Quote:
Take Action - Let the Battle Begin!

Senator Arlen Specter, the man set to become the head of the Judiciary Committee, has warned Pres. Bush against nominating pro-life judges. His comments are especially troubling since they come on the heels of an election that overwhelmingly affirmed pro-life candidates, and Pres. Bush has also repeatedly affirmed his commitment to a culture of life.

The Senate must not allow Sen. Specter to determine the makeup of our courts. He should not become the next Judiciary Committee chairman.

Take Action! Follow this link to send an email and get a list of important phone numbers to call.


Does anyone want to claim now that there's less religious right political action now than there was in the 1980s?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:56 am
dear evil german

You really have to stop your knee from jerking out when I point to a columnist or philosopher. Oliphant is a very bright and balanced fellow.

The second part you've quoted IS the kicker, and you ought to know that. The inclusiveness/ambiguity of that language has a purpose.

Quote:
The Ohio measure is spearheaded by Citizens for Community Values, a pro-family group, and is supported by a host of similar organizations. Ohio's measure is more far-reaching than others because it would also bar public institutions such as universities from providing benefits to domestic partners. (see page two)
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 09:01 am
Thomas wrote:
Quote:
To be honest, I'm not quite sure what to think, and I'm not suggesting anything at this point. But when I see something that conflicts with my preconceptions, I conclude that my preconceptions are probably wrong. In this case, I saw credible data that Northerners avoid living on the same block as someone of a different race to a much higher degree than Southerners do, and I conclude that my preconceptions of Southerners as racist conservatives and Northerners as openminded liberals was probably wrong.


And I conclude that you don't have enough data to draw your conclusion. How many homes are on these streets? What is the average income level of those living on these streets? What percentage of blacks relative to whites exists in the cities where these streets are located?

You need more data, Thomas before you change you opinion about Southern bigotry.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 09:06 am
and a few other possibilites not mentioned here Thomas, Is the "liberal northeast" more residentially stabile (less movement either into or out of multi-generational neighborhoods vs higher mobility in the south due to jobs seach/economic factors. Industrial/service industries (north) vs agricultural occupations (small businesses) in the south as a traditional base. (and the recent advance of non-union manufactioring into the south requiring relocation) Something you might want to look into would be integration of churches north-south rather than integration of residential areas (indicative of social vs legal inspired integration) Actually I don't know the answers to any of these questions other than personal experiences like when I drove (last spring) though what I think of as the old south and heard, repeatedly, the issue of the confederate flag being flown.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 09:10 am
ps

thomas

I do indeed find something 'wrong' with the press coverage on this issue, but it's the same 'wrong' I frequently bemoan, as does that handsome fellow you've chosen as an avatar...lack of depth and critical analysis of issues and in the place of that, "he said X, she said Y, our job is done"...news 'analysis' replaced by a stenographer function.

This, obviously, results in the press serving as adjunct or PR outlet for whoever has power, prominence, and access.

I've started a thread on the issues raised by Oliphant
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38700&highlight=&sid=348593619563a313256652e2e0d4d0ec
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 09:10 am
Quote:
Play by the necessary rules and refer to them always as 'conservative right' 'or radical conservatives'


Might I suggest, Blatham, that we come up with a much more powerfully denigrating adjective than "conservative right?" Your second suggestion is better, but I think we can do better even than that. 'Fanatical conservatives' or 'control freak conservatives' or 'I'll mind your business conservatives.'
There's also:

closed minded conservatives
militant conservatives
blood sucking conservatives
(ok, that last one is going too far, I know. I just thought it was an excellent description.) Laughing

Any other ideas for the right public opinion changing adjective?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 09:18 am
Lola

Radical Right is the most alliterative, thus easy to plant as a quick-access meme. It has the value of being accurate too.

One thing we have learned from Rove is that repetition is key, eg "resolute". The term can be quite at odds with reality, but if said often enough from a wide enough array of sources, tends to suggest (to the suggestible) that it must be real. That's an old intelligence technique, and it's also an old marketing technique, as you know.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 09:21 am
I do believe Lola that the "radial conservatives" are mostly of a mind of fear, fear of losing to the "secular world" all those traditional values that they have relied on generation after generation, not realizing that it is their own undoing. The big screen that gives them NASCAR racing and long-neck Bud's also brings them "hollywood" values. They are in a bind and see no way out other than to attack somebody, anybody and "leftwing eastern liberal "elites" give them a simple target (They are not always wrong on that account)
0 Replies
 
 

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