0
   

Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 01:22 pm
Here's another one:

Quote:
Another key reason why Bush supporters may hold to the beliefs that Iraq had WMD and supported al Qaeda, is that these beliefs are necessary for them to support the decision to go to war with Iraq. Eighty five percent of Bush supporters say that going to war was the right decision. However, asked what the US should have done "If, before the war, US intelligence services had concluded that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction and was not providing substantial support to al Qaeda," 58% of Bush supporters said in that case the US should not have gone to war. Furthermore, 61% express confidence that in that case the President would not have gone to war. To preserve the belief that that going to war was the right decision, it appears necessary for Bush supporters to believe that the assumptions that prompted going to war were correct.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 01:24 pm
Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 01:28 pm
Interesting conclusion:

Quote:
Gradually the support for the decision to go to war and, concomitantly, public confidence in the president, began to wither. Moving in tandem down this slowly descending arc were the declining beliefs that Iraq had WMD and links to al Qaeda, and that world public opinion approved of the US going to war with Iraq.

But now, while others have peeled off, Bush supporters continue to hold onto their image of Bush as a capable protector. To do this it appears that many need to continue to screen out information that undermines this image.

Bush appears to assume that his support is fragile. He refuses to admit to making any mistakes. He admits that he was surprised that WMD were not found, but does not say that the most reasonable conclusion is that they were never there and continues to talk about "disarming" Iraq. He asserts that he never said that Iraq was directly involved in 9/11, but maintains that there were contacts with al Qaeda in a way that implies that they were significant. Most telling, his supporters as well as his opponents overwhelmingly say that they hear him still saying that Iraq had WMD and supported al Qaeda. To remain loyal and bonded to him means to enter into this false reality.

Bush may be right. Admitting his mistakes may shatter his idealized image in a way that some supporters may not forgive. But there also risks in succeeding in getting elected based on false beliefs. The number of people in the public who see through the illusion will likely continue to grow, eating away at the implied mandate of an election. Further, the cohesion of society can be damaged by a persisting and fundamental division in the perception of what is real, undermining pathways to consensus and mutual sacrifice, and making the country increasingly difficult to govern.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 01:34 pm
sozobe wrote:
To preserve the belief that that going to war was the right decision, it appears necessary for Bush supporters to believe that the assumptions that prompted going to war were correct.

I don't know much about psychology, but this sounds like a classic case of cognitive dissonance to me, and it also sounds like a very persuasive account of what's happening. Does anybody know what's the "right" way of approaching persons who are in that state? I would be surprised if it was to tell them: "You're in a state of cognitive dissonance, get the hell out of it, right now" -- which seems to be what debaters on our side of the Iraq discussion are routinely doing, on A2K and elsewhere, and I'm not excluding myself from that.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 01:48 pm
Ha, yeah, I know.

A quick one-two slap and dumping ice water over their heads would probably not be good ideas, either.

Is this about news outlets? That people can identify the news outlet that lines up with their ideological views and then get their nice, "unbiased" <coff> news from there and nowhere else?

This isn't true of george, but for several posters here I regularly see talking point posts -- they say something, I'm like whaaaat? then go look it up, and there it is (often the exact same terminology) on all kinds of conservative outlets.

I dunno, I dunno.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 01:52 pm
Quote:
I don't know much about psychology, but this sounds like a classic case of cognitive dissonance to me, and it also sounds like a very persuasive account of what's happening. Does anybody know what's the "right" way of approaching persons who are in that state? I would be surprised if it was to tell them: "You're in a state of cognitive dissonance, get the hell out of it, right now" -- which seems to be what debaters on our side of the Iraq discussion are routinely doing, on A2K and elsewhere, and I'm not excluding myself from that.


YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

But seriously, you have a good point here - the cognitively dissonant are not likely to just wake up and snap out of it because you confront them with logic, after all, they've already shown a great resistance to logic (evidence, or lack thereof) changing their opinions.

Are there emotional arguments that we can use?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 01:53 pm
Who are "they"?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 01:56 pm
The cognitively dissonant. Though the argument applies to a wide variety of situations, in this particular situation, it is those who stubbornly refuse to see that the facts (which you call 'hindsight') do not support the case we were presented for war.

So much is put on 'stayind the course' and having 'strong convictions' by the ruling party that it doesn't surprise me that so many people have bought into the same stupid idea....

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 01:59 pm
The people referred to in the survey.

Note, there were people on the Dem side as well -- none of these questions had responses where 100% of Bush suppporters believed it and zero percent of Kerry supporters believed it. Just, there were a LOT more Bush supporters who believed that, for example, the Duelfer report concluded that just before the war, Iraq had WMDs and/ or a major WMD program.

(For that one, 57% of Bush supporters thought so and 23% of Kerry supporters thought so. I'd certainly like to get at the 23% of Kerry supporters who thought so, too.)
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 02:02 pm
so 57% of the Bush supporters they surveyed which is how many people? 12?

This is the reason I hate statistics.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 02:05 pm
Quote:
The primary poll was conducted October 12-18 with 968 respondents, but the analysis also included polls that were conducted September 3-7 and September 8-12, with 798 and 959 respondents, respectively. Margins of error ranged from 3.2-4%. The polls were fielded by Knowledge Networks using its nationwide panel, which is randomly selected from the entire adult population and subsequently provided internet access. For more information about this methodology, go to www.knowledgenetworks.com/ganp.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 02:09 pm
So, of those 2725 people, how many were Bush Supporters? Kerry supporters? Ambivalent? How many didn't answer any questions?

How many answered the way they thought the pollsters would like them too for getting free internet access? How many lied?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 02:15 pm
<looks for nimh or fbaezer>

That's how surveys are done. If you can find a specific problem with the methodology, have at it. What you mention is the kind of thing the margin of error takes into account, though.

If you accept no surveys of public opnion at all, that's fine, but it kind of limits what and how we can talk about things here.

If we only talk about people we know, personally, we get a whole bunch of micro-surveys which are assuredly even less scientific.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 02:20 pm
I have the same problem with most surveys and statistics.

When you just say that "57% of Bush supporters..." that leads to misunderstandings. Wouldn't it be better to say "213 Bush supporters that were polled answered..."

I know a lot of Bush supporters and I haven't known ANY of them to believe Saddam and Osama were working directly with each other. Most of them believed Saddam had WMD's prior to the war as did I. Many feel that the WMD's were moved or hidden, as do I.

I hope you understand what I mean.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 02:23 pm
Exit poll data suggests "moral values" was the major reason for Bush getting a majority vote.

Are we going to be analyzed for that, too?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 02:31 pm
Quote:
I know a lot of Bush supporters and I haven't known ANY of them to believe Saddam and Osama were working directly with each other. Most of them believed Saddam had WMD's prior to the war as did I. Many feel that the WMD's were moved or hidden, as do I.


What evidence do you base this upon? Or is it just hope?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 02:33 pm
Based on the fact that Saddam had used them previously, that Saddam would not allow weapons inspectors to perform their duties and that Saddam was a royal a55wipe who had no apprehensions of funding and supporting terrorism.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 02:35 pm
McGentrix wrote:

WMD's WERE found in Iraq, just not the quantities we expected. Most, it is believed, were secreted into Syria.


I have not seen where this statement by McGentrix was actually refuted. Alluded to, yes, but point blank said is incorrect... no.

I'm therefore pointing McGentrix to this website, which I hope he finds to be an adequate reference:
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/




Quote:
Iraq and Weapons of Mass Destruction
National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 80
Updated - February 11, 2004
Edited by Jeffrey Richelson

Originally posted December 20, 2002
Previously updated February 26, 2003

[...] As U.S. forces moved through Iraq, there were initial reports that chemical or biological weapons might have been uncovered, but closer examinations produced negative results. In May 2003, the Bush administration decided to establish a specialized group of about 1,500 individuals, the Iraq Survey Group (ISG), to search the country for WMD - replacing the 75th Exploitation Task Force, which had originally been assigned the mission. Appointed to lead the Group, whose motto is "find, exploit, eliminate," was Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton, the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency's Directorate of Operations. In June, David Kay, who served as a U.N. weapons inspector after Operation Desert Storm, was appointed special advisor and traveled to Iraq to lead the search. (Note 4)

By the time of the creation of the ISG, and continuing to the date of this publication, a controversy has existed over the performance of U.S. (and British) intelligence in collecting and evaluating information about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programs. The reliability of sources has been questioned. It has been suggested that some human intelligence may have been purposeful deception by the Iraqi intelligence and security services, while exiles and defectors may have provided other intelligence seeking to influence U.S. policy.

The quality of the intelligence analysis has also come under scrutiny. The failure to find weapons stocks or active production lines, undermining claims by the October 2002 NIE and both President Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell (Document 16, Document 27), has been one particular cause for criticism. Controversy has also centered around specific judgments - in the United States with regard to assessments of Iraq's motives for seeking high-strength aluminum tubes, and in the United Kingdom with respect to the government's claim that Iraq sought to acquire uranium from Africa. Post-war evaluation of captured material, particularly two mobile facilities that the CIA and DIA judged to be biological weapons laboratories, has also been the subject of dispute. (Note 5)[...]
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 02:36 pm
Lola,
I think you have reported the intent of the framers of the Constitution incorrectly. They included a permanent prohibition of the establishment by government of any particular religion. They did not set government against religion. The fact is that established religions were the rule, not the exception in the late 18th century, and even in several of the original colonies that made up the new republic. Our republic was consciously set up to avoid such an establishment, not to prohibit or demean religion.

I don't think all or even most secular humanists are persecuting Christianity. Nor do I think,
Quote:

The Conservative Evangelical Christian movement is determined to impose their religious beliefs on everyone, not just in the US but on the entire world
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 02:41 pm
Piffka wrote:
McGentrix wrote:

WMD's WERE found in Iraq, just not the quantities we expected. Most, it is believed, were secreted into Syria.


I have not seen where this statement by McGentrix was actually refuted. Alluded to, yes, but point blank said is incorrect... no.

I'm therefore pointing McGentrix to this website, which I hope he finds to be an adequate reference:
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/




Quote:
Iraq and Weapons of Mass Destruction
National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 80
Updated - February 11, 2004
Edited by Jeffrey Richelson

Originally posted December 20, 2002
Previously updated February 26, 2003

[...] As U.S. forces moved through Iraq, there were initial reports that chemical or biological weapons might have been uncovered, but closer examinations produced negative results. In May 2003, the Bush administration decided to establish a specialized group of about 1,500 individuals, the Iraq Survey Group (ISG), to search the country for WMD - replacing the 75th Exploitation Task Force, which had originally been assigned the mission. Appointed to lead the Group, whose motto is "find, exploit, eliminate," was Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton, the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency's Directorate of Operations. In June, David Kay, who served as a U.N. weapons inspector after Operation Desert Storm, was appointed special advisor and traveled to Iraq to lead the search. (Note 4)

By the time of the creation of the ISG, and continuing to the date of this publication, a controversy has existed over the performance of U.S. (and British) intelligence in collecting and evaluating information about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programs. The reliability of sources has been questioned. It has been suggested that some human intelligence may have been purposeful deception by the Iraqi intelligence and security services, while exiles and defectors may have provided other intelligence seeking to influence U.S. policy.

The quality of the intelligence analysis has also come under scrutiny. The failure to find weapons stocks or active production lines, undermining claims by the October 2002 NIE and both President Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell (Document 16, Document 27), has been one particular cause for criticism. Controversy has also centered around specific judgments - in the United States with regard to assessments of Iraq's motives for seeking high-strength aluminum tubes, and in the United Kingdom with respect to the government's claim that Iraq sought to acquire uranium from Africa. Post-war evaluation of captured material, particularly two mobile facilities that the CIA and DIA judged to be biological weapons laboratories, has also been the subject of dispute. (Note 5)[...]


Sarin, Mustard Gas Discovered Separately in Iraq

Quote:


I realize it's from Fox News, but the facts are facts. Refer back to my statement.
0 Replies
 
 

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