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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2005 09:09 pm
Well other than Hanson being a 'Christian fanatic"--I strenuously object to that characterisation--I think I showed that his area of expertise is most likely not anywhere as narrow as you implied, nor is his credibility dismissed as you implied. Further he farmed for 5 years of his adult life and has been teaching, writing, and lecturing for the last 21 years which hardly makes him a farmer by trade.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2005 09:40 pm
LOL Foxfyre - you're mistaken in thinking "farmer" a term of derogation. In the words of a bumper sticker I'd seen in London years ago while agricultural subsidies were about to be abolished:

"If you must speak against farmers don't do it with your mouth full."
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Mar, 2005 12:10 am
Final on that topic - and btw, Foxfyre, you wouldn't have to object so often, strenuously or otherwise, if you bothered to quote what was actually said instead of what you thought to have been said.

Here's more info than anyone ever wanted on "pro-Israel Christian fanatics" (sic):
_______________________________________________________________

"...."political religion"?-religion as an instrument of political combat. On gay marriage and abortion [..]no one should be surprised what this political religion portends. [..]

To this end they have declared solidarity with Israel and the Jewish settlements.."
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17852
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Mar, 2005 12:11 am
Hey HofT, I'm descended from farmers and grew up in small farming communities though I can't say I really grew up on a farm. But nobody will catch me speaking of farmers derogatorily. I was just commenting that a person who has been out of farming for more than 20 years can't really be said to be a farmer by trade. You seemed to have a very negative impression of Professor Hanson, and of course that is your right. I just thought you characterized him unfairly and incorrectly so put my two cents worth in.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:12 am
Quote:
March 08, 2005, 7:49 a.m.

"When Good News Strikes"
Glum liberals' try coping with a changing world.

If the world that Democrats have been living in lately were made into a reality disaster show, it would be called "When Good News Strikes."

One of the inconveniences of political debate is that occasionally reality intrudes to invalidate a given position no matter how much its partisans want to believe it. This is what has been happening recently to the argument that the invasion of Iraq produced an irrecoverable mess. Although surely setbacks still await us in Iraq and the Middle East, stunning headlines from the region have left many liberals perversely glum about upbeat news.

Schadenfreude has faded into its happiness-hating opposite, gluckschmerz. Liberal journalist Kurt Andersen has written in New York magazine of the guilty "pleasure liberals took in bad news from Iraq, which seemed sure to hurt the administration." According to Andersen, the successful Iraqi elections changed the mood. For Bush critics, this inspiring event was "unexpectedly unsettling," since they so "hat[ed] the idea of a victory presided over by the Bush team."

The legendary liberal editor Charlie Peters confessed to his own attack of gluckschmerz: "New York Post columnist John Podhoretz asked liberals: ?'Did you momentarily feel a rush of disappointment [at the news of the Jan. 30 Iraq election] because you knew, you just knew, that this was going to redound to the credit of George W. Bush?' I plead guilty …"

On his show the other night, comedian Jon Stewart ?- half-jokingly ?- expressed a feeling of dread at the changes in the Middle East and the credit President Bush will get for them. "Oh my God!" he said. "He's gonna be a great ?- pretty soon, Republicans are gonna be like, ?'Reagan was nothing compared to this guy.' Like, my kid's gonna go to a high school named after him, I just know it." Stewart is badly in need of the consolation of a yet-to-be-written pop theological tract, "When Good Things Happen to Bad Presidents."

The Democratic foreign-policy expert who was Stewart's guest that night, Nancy Soderberg, tried to comfort him, pointing out that the budding democratic revolution in the Middle East still might fail: "There's always hope that this might not work." There is historical precedent for that, of course. Liberal revolutions failed in Europe in 1848 and Eastern Europe in 1968. What is an entirely new phenomenon is liberals calling such reverses for human freedom ?- half-jokingly or not ?- occasions for "hope."

Soderberg added: "There's still Iran and North Korea, don't forget. There's hope." The way Bogart and Bergman "will always have Paris," liberals now tell themselves they "will always have Iran and North Korea." No matter the good news anywhere else, these nuke-hungry rogue states will provide grounds for bad-mouthing Bush foreign policy. But these two intractable problems won't seriously detract from Bush's world-changing accomplishment should he succeed in transforming the Middle East.

Some liberals are reluctantly giving him his due. The New York Times surveyed the fresh air sweeping the region and concluded, "The Bush administration is entitled to claim a healthy share of the credit." Liberal commentator Daniel Schorr remarked: "During the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, President Bush said that ?'a liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform that vital region.' He may have had it right."

Has the administration gotten a few fortunate breaks in the Middle East lately? Well, yes. Asked how he seemed to make so many lucky saves, the great Montreal Canadien goalie Ken Dryden explained that it was his job to be in the right position to get lucky. By toppling Saddam Hussein and insisting on elections in Iraq, while emphasizing the power of freedom, Bush has put the United States in the right position to encourage and take advantage of democratic irruptions in the region.

And so we have created the conditions for being pleasantly surprised by the positive drift of events in the Middle East, or unpleasantly surprised ?- depending on your politics.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 01:48 pm
So Soderberg goes on national TV spewing the Dems Against Democracy line that they really want the Mid East policies to fail Shocked

Add Dean heading the Democratic party to that list, along with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Teddy, Byrd, and Carter, and we've got some GREAT targets!

What a GRAND time to be a Conservative! Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:13 pm
It is fun to be on the happy side of issues isn't it? Smile

You have to feel sorry for the liberals. They are in the thorny position of having to find some way to show that success is failure for if they rejoice in whatever good happens, people like them can't get elected to much of anything. But how depressing it must be to make evil out of what is good? How lucky we conservatives are to be able to laugh and be glad and encouraging and hopeful with other peoples.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:24 am
David Warren: Feeding the Wave

How many times have I had to tell you, gentle reader, to read anything President Bush says. There was a joke made by the louche webloggist, Wonkette, to the effect that the Bush administration has been sadly lacking in empty gestures. The President not only seems to mean almost everything he says, he seems to act on it soon after. This is, as my reader must agree, very eccentric behaviour in a politician. I'm not saying Mr. Bush utters deathless prose; I'm just saying read his texts if you want some clue to what is going to happen next. (Always archived at whitehouse.gov.)

This instruction applies particularly to his address yesterday to the U.S. National Defence University in Fort McNair, near Washington. It contained several dozen hints that the U.S. would now be accelerating, in its engagement with the Middle East. It also contained one pregnant little dropped allegation of fact: that the U.S. government is convinced the recent terror blast in Tel Aviv was ordered from Damascus, not from the usual sources on the Palestinian West Bank.

More was being said through that than meets the ear. Mr. Bush was not only telling Bashir Assad, the Syrian dictator, that he has drawn a bead on him. He was signalling beyond this that the U.S. is no longer interested in keeping what happens to Israel in a separate file from what happens elsewhere. He was thus subtly insinuating "peace with Israel" into the agenda of Arabs and other Muslims demonstrating for democracy in spreading waves throughout the region.

Now turning to those, let's take three items I noticed in yesterday's news, glancing through the Internet:

In Kuwait, the parliament is speeding work on a bill to give the vote to women, and allow them to stand as political candidates (as in Iraq and Afghanistan), while several hundred women activists hold vigil outside. From the pictures I've seen, few of these ladies were wearing the proper head covering.

In Cairo, protesters for an opposition party are telling President Mubarak they are not entirely happy with his plan to let other candidates run in Egypt's next presidential election. This is because after reading the small print, they think any such election will be rigged. They think that, perhaps, if Mr. Mubarak and his anointed son were neither of them candidates in such a next election, it might have more chance of being free and fair.

In Multan, Pakistan, several thousand women rallied in defence of the rights of Mukhtar Mai, a woman who was gang-raped, probably on the orders of a village council.

There are many more reports, of demonstrations from Morocco to Pakistan, but I chose these three because I've now seen photographs. What struck me in each case was the mixing together of well-dressed, middle-class, respectable people -- of the type who normally calculate they have too much to lose by yelling in the street -- with poorer and more ragged people. And shoulder to shoulder, in the same causes. And each cause was, for its location, a direct affront not only to the powers-that-be, but to their most basic attitudes.

I don't think any of these demonstrations would have happened without the extensive television coverage now spreading through the Arab and Islamic world of Lebanon and Iraq. Several of my correspondents in the region have pointed out, that Al Jazeera's "pro-terrorist" coverage in Iraq has backfired, because Arabs watching the footage of anti-government demonstrations take away a powerful impression that such demonstrations should be possible.

The subtext is more eloquent than the text in these cases. For, yes, Al Jazeera often only covers people marching against America and her allies. But also, yes, the Americans and their "running dogs" also permit such protests. Viewers know their own dictators permit no such thing. Or rather, have only started allowing that sort of thing as a way to release pressures that their police forces tell them are building, quickly, everywhere.

As I've said before, the reason the large, flag-waving, anti-Syrian demonstrations have been happening in Beirut is not because the occupying Assad regime has suddenly gone soft. It doesn't have the option of going soft; no dictatorship does.

These people are rallying because, after Afghanistan and Iraq, they believe the United States Mediterranean fleet now offers them real cover. And they' re watching the Assad regime pulling back tanks and troops towards the Bekaa Valley and the Syrian frontier, chiefly because President Bush is publicly and plainly telling them to pull back. Many American flags have been waved among the Lebanese ones by the demonstrators.

What Mr. Bush was saying yesterday, over the shoulders of his audience to the people campaigning for freedom and democracy across the Islamic world, was, in my paraphrase: "You are right to think you have the full support of my people, government, and military. The freedom bell is ringing, do not hesitate to rise."

_____________________________________________________
HOMERUN!!!
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:11 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Hey HofT [...] You seemed to have a very negative impression of Professor Hanson, and of course that is your right. I just thought you characterized him unfairly and incorrectly so put my two cents worth in.


Foxfyre - it's not my intention to comment on the subject of Professor Hanson further: if you read what I already posted you'll see that (i) I didn't characterize him "incorrectly" and that (b) in posting on European politics he's outside his area of expertise.

Next: all this triumphalism about the spread of democracy in the Middle East conveniently overlooks the fact that in each and every case the locals were allowed to vote they voted for Islamic parties. Massive political instability, conducive to deadly foreign and domestic interventions, will inevitably follow free elections in those lands. Neocons in general (including Hanson) appear singularly oblivious to the fact that their most-favored-nation, Israel, will not escape widespread destruction in the area; Pipes, alone among them, seems to be slowly coming to grips with that danger. As President Bush notes however we don't plan to reverse policy - which is fine by me <G>
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 10:56 am
I think what others seem to discount is that democracy is bigger than pro-Western leaning governments.

I think there may be some that thought the Bush proponents were trying to fashion pro-Western governments--and because the administrations chosen aren't immediately apparent as pro-Western, somehow Bush has failed.

The goal isn't pro-Westernism. The goal is empowerment of the MEasters--a taste of self-determination.... These things don't happen immediately. They evolve. Finally the first step has been taken. It will evolve by itself now. All we have to do is be a good gardener.

People will not long vote to oppress themselves.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 11:11 am
Lash - that's for sure; what's at issue is how the inescapable consequences of their votes may affect our own Middle Eastern policies, specifically support for Israel. In the words of someone who foresaw the dangers of fanatical support for a foreign country:
_____________________________________________________________

"...And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens, (who devote themselves to the favorite nation,) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation."
The Farewell Address of
President George Washington
Sept. 17, 1796
_____________________________________________________________
http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/washbye.html
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 02:03 pm
A successful war against facistic repression they can't endorse, an economy that continues to improve at historic pace despite their wishes, electoral disaster, growing rapprochement with recently disaffected European powers, escalating scandals involving the UN, democracy breakin' out all over the place, the initiation and progress of Medicare, Social Security, financial, corporate governance, labor, environmental and judicial reforms for which they can take no credit, all along with the recent inconveniences their beloved liberal media icons have inflicted upon themselves, and a President they detest, one who says what he means, does what he says, and gets it done, just to top it off ...


No wonder The Democrats are an unhappy lot here of late. To them, it understandably must appear to all be goin' wrong.

Now, given the nature of politics and public mood, one may expect an eventual reversal of the present rightward pendulum swing. By the looks of things, The Democrats seem to be doin' their level best to place the inevitable occurrence of that eventual reversal into the realm of geologic timescale.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 02:32 pm
Democrats fall on the ball

Partisan politics in Washington this season are getting interesting, as a few Democrats are cautiously beginning to challenge their leadership's strategy of total opposition to major Bush initiatives. It is dawning on some Democrats that their all-defense strategy may not pair up well with President Bush's all offense strategy.

President Bush plays politics the way my friends and I used to play pick-up football when I was a kid. In the huddle, the quarterback would tell everyone else to go out long. On the snap the quarterback would dance around in the backfield until one of us five or six receivers got open, at which point he would complete the pass. With both sides going long all the time, we often ended up with basketball scores.

The Democrats, on the other hand, when on offense, merely receive the snap and fall on the ball. When on defense, they put all their men on the line, trying for a quick sack of the quarterback. If the quarterback is too agile for them, they are vulnerable to be scored upon, given their lack of a pass defense.

When two such teams meet, the best score the all-defense Democrats can hope for is a 0-0 tie. The best score the all-offense Republicans can expect is at least a 56-0 win. So far, since 2001 the score is about 42-0, the president having completed passes on tax cuts and the economy, the Afghan war, the Iraq war, the Middle East democracy project, prescription drugs and class-action lawsuits, among the major items.

In the next couple of months and years the president is going to throw long on Social Security, bankruptcy reform, asbestos litigation reform, judicial appointments, Medicaid reform, Medicare reform and tax simplification. If he completes all those passes the final score would be 91- 0, and "Daily Show" star Jon Stewart's self-admitted worst fear will be realized ?- his daughter will be going to George W. Bush High School in downtown Manhattan.

Of course, the analogy to football isn't perfect. In politics, some touchdowns are worth more points than others. If Mr. Bush can pass Social Security reform, that touchdown would be worth about 200 points all by itself. And, unlike football, in politics some wins later are re-scored as losses, such as the temporary win by slave-holders in the Dred Scott decision. They won the Supreme Court decision in 1857, but lost the war in 1865.

Currently the big fight is Social Security reform. The official congressional Democratic leadership position is that there is no problem that a modest soak-the-rich tax increase couldn't fix. Well, as the current unfunded liability of Social Security is $3.7 trillion, we know with precision the minimum level of tax increase needed to fill that void ?- $3.7 trillion. That would be the largest tax increase since ... well since tax increases were invented by the Pharaohs at the dawn of civilization. And we wouldn't even have a bunch of pointy buildings to show for it, because such a tax increase would slam the breaks on a growing economy, including the construction industry.

But because the Democratic leadership is intent on denying Mr. Bush a "victory" on Social Security, they are whipping their members to not negotiate with the president or congressional Republicans. Thus, a few weeks ago Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid announced that his fellow Democratic senators were completely united in refusing to deal on the issue.

Even when he said it, it wasn't true. Between a half-dozen and a dozen Democratic senators have been meeting and talking seriously about Social Security legislation in three more or less separate, but related, conversations with Republican Sens. Charles Grassley, Lindsey Graham and Chuck Hagel for several weeks. Keep in mind, Republicans only have to pick up five Democrats to pass Social Security over a filibuster effort in the Senate.

Finally, last weekend, Sen. Joe Lieberman, long reputed to be one of the Democratic participants in those discussions, put himself on the record on CNN : "So, at some point we've got to stop criticizing each other and sit at the table and work out this problem ... Every year we wait to come up with a solution to the Social Security problem [it] costs our children and grandchildren and great grandchildren $600 billion more." The next morning the New York Times, which on Social Security seems to be the house organ for Mr. Reid's maximum obstruction operation, ran a long article about Mr. Lieberman on the theme of "the difficulty of trying to be a centrist in an increasingly polarized political climate." After using most of the article as a poster board for named and unnamed left-wing cranks to say rude things about poor old Joe, the article did admit in one sentence that: "Polls show that more than two-thirds of Connecticut Democrats approve of his performance, and so do more than two-thirds of Connecticut Republicans." Apparently it is not that difficult to be a centrist Democrat.

I rather hope that not too many more Democratic senators come to their senses and work for genuine reform. No point in re-electing more Democrats than is necessary. So to the 36 obstructing Democrats: Keep it up, and have a nice post-Senate life.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20050308-094130-5762r.htm

Laughing
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 02:43 pm
Yeah f*ckin right, Timber.

Quote:
A successful war against facistic repression they can't endorse


Take a lesson from your leader; don't declare things a 'success' until they are over.

Quote:
an economy that continues to improve at historic pace despite their wishes


Our markets still haven't recovered to the levels they were at pre-9/11. We have a larger national debt than previously. Our trade defecits are ridiculous. Our national defecit is ridiculous. We aren't acting fiscally responsible from any standpoint, as a nation. Only a Republican could claim that the first four-year period in the last 70 years with large net job losses is 'historic improvement.'

Quote:
electoral disaster


51% isn't a disaster. If it had been 65-35 Bush, that would have been a disaster. Democrats didn't do terribly in the Congress either considering the loss of four Dem senators due to redistricting in Texas.

Quote:
growing rapprochement with recently disaffected European powers


Yeah, noone believes this is actually true but the Neocons. European gov'ts still hold the same posititions they did on every issue, and we have actively lost support in many areas.

Quote:
escalating scandals involving the UN


It's not like Americans weren't involved in said scandals. And what does that have to do with Democrats, anyways?

Quote:
democracy breakin' out all over the place


Really? Where?

Quote:
the initiation and progress of Medicare, Social Security, financial, corporate governance, labor, environmental and judicial reforms for which they can take no credit


We wouldn't want credit for the 'reforms' you are talking about; the majority of them are completely terrible legislation. Such as, I don't know, the prescription drug plan which now costs three times as much as it did when presented for a vote; or cutting 60 billion dollars from Medicaid; or a Social Security plan which is unfunded and will, according to real-life examples, leave many poor folks out in the cold whilst making the rich richer; Environmental legislation that is pro-business and anti-environment, rolling back laws decades; a complete lack of adressing outsourcing or reforming tax laws to punish it; running our country into a huge defecit/debt, not addressing critical trade imbalances, ignoring warning signs from economists that we need to change the course.

Oh, and let's not forget the Judicial reforms: making torture legal, encourgaging it's use, and shipping folks to other countries to be tortured. That's a nice one.

What makes you think the dems would want credit? Sheesh.

Quote:
all along with the recent inconveniences their beloved liberal media icons have inflicted upon themselves


Your conservative Icons are no better; One is a sex offender, one is a drug user, one is a male prostitute, one regularly changes quotes about past presidents(=lies), one is a raving psychopathic racist Bitch. You can fill in the names well enough.

Quote:
and a President they detest


You got that part right!

Quote:
one who says what he means, does what he says, and gets it done, just to top it off ...


"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01

YEAH RIGHT, he does what he says and gets it done. Pull the other one!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 02:47 pm
Cyclops << Weep...gnash.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 02:52 pm
Just calling it as I see it. Who would want to take credit for such things?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 03:29 pm
Cyclo - I betcha none of your friends ever have to worry about worrying, 'cause you do enough worrying for everyone!
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 03:49 pm
That football analogy has to be one of the STUPIDEST ones I have ever seen. It ignores the simple fact that there are consequences long after the acts of congress are passed. We don't all get to go home after 3 hours, waving our pennants and giant fingers and forget about what Bush did, we have to live with it.

Bush has pushed much of his legislative agenda through congress sure, but the long term scoring is hardly done. What will be the consequences of his tax cuts? So far, we see claims of short term growth because of it but we also see long term problems. The reform of the bankruptcy law may seem like a great victory today but it may have adverse consequences not even dreamed about yet. The list is long, the wait for the final outcome even longer.

You can trumpet his success all you want today. The future is just as likely to see him as a fascist thug as it is to see him as the messiah that saved the US. This is more like a baseball game that you declare you won because you scored 5 runs in the first inning and used all your pitchers to stop the opposing team. There are at least 8 innings left and as Yogi said, "It ain't over til it's over." Now we have to live with the consequences of Bush's actions.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 03:54 pm
Repubs 91
Dems 0
Bottom of the first.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 04:23 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Repubs 91
Dems 0
Bottom of the first.



You and Timber are both leaving out the obvious question of what the dems are gonna do to try to top the ticket they just ran. One possibility (bumper sticker):


http://designeduniverse.com/pics/arnold_iscariot.gif
0 Replies
 
 

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