Bush supporters' aftermath thread

Tico:-

I'm sorry.I thought it was a sporting thread.There sure ain't a lot of politics.
As has been said again and again politics is the art of the possible.What possibilities exist here except the one to bring the US into the international soccer fold.That's serious politics.It has the merit of dealing with living becoming things instead of
dead and gone become things.I will admit that such a scheme requires a lot more effort than spouting from a keyboard about the incomprehensible world of past action.Surely the introduction,development and maintenance of isolationist sport is a first order political decision.Why have the full pitch delivery in the bat/ball game and the forward pass in the grunt game if it was not to stress your separation from the seed cultures.But that was from before jet travel and satellite broadcasting and the result is that you now are on the sidelines.And that is the wrong place for the leader of the free world.Even China has noticed it .Symbols do matter.

Are you saying that what I'm reading up above is anything to do with politics?Stendahl said that the most important book of the century (19th) was The Book of Etiquette and there were no flies on him.
What's happening on this thread is you all taking yourselves clean out of politics.Politics involves ambition,patience,understanding and ruthlessness all of which are notable by their absence here.

spendius.

sp

In elementary, I made an error and scored against our own goal. My team members were not up on the latest in Etiquette technologies. Was Stendahl, do you think, a forgiving sort?

This is a loaded question asked at a foolish time… for the purpose of pleasing the throngs of enthusiastic doubters like yourself.

Liberated or Occupied? They're both, and quite obviously so, to anyone with their eyes open. Translation: Saddam's gone and we're not. So what?

The Independent would have you judge the Sistine Chapel on the first day of painting. They'd show you pictures of the messy drop cloths and point out the damage done by scaffolding, paint drips and whatnot… prophesize about how terrible it might look when… (who we kidding?) if it's completed. Then they'd ask "Did you think the Chapel was too plain before, or do you think it's messier now? While some would demand reparations and spend their time ranting and raving about the mess and undue expense… others would smile inwardly and look forward to it's completion with eager anticipation.

Hah! I read "thongs of enthusiastic doubters".

I couldn't live in California, period. I don't know how many times I've heard people say they left the place because they could no longer subject their children to the Ca. schools. The Ca. school system was widely viewed as the pride of the nation 50 years ago; how do you go from the pride of the nation to something nobody would subject their children to??

Spendius,

What we have going on here in this little thread is the "politics of the gloat. "

Notice any similarities between American sport and American foreign policy? We don't embrace soccer like the rest of the world ... as a whole we prefer other mainly American pursuits (e.g., Football (ours), Baseball, and Basketball). The rest of the world may think we're clueless, and that we should give up what we think is best, and do what they think is best ... And they have a difficult time comprehending that what seems right on the Continent, isn't right on this side of the Pond. Sure, there are a few countries that embrace our sports, but not with the fever we do. But the interesting thing is, we don't feel any particular need to walk lock-step with the rest of the world. There are some who would prefer we do, but we do have an independent spirit. So, some may feel we are on the sideline, but we certainly understand we are in the game.



O'Bill: Nice analogy. :wink:

For the second time this year, Bill reminds me of a revolutionary communist. This is getting worrying.

You've probably guessed the association I was making. When the communists took over in Russia, things got worse. First there was war, but as the communists said, it was just one of those things you have to go through to wrest something new: a question of fighting the "rearguards" of the old regime. You have to be ruthless, even ignore some basic human rights, because otherwise that golden future of democracy and people's power will never materialise, and isn't that a goal worthy of some temporary compromise, in a region where democracy would be a first?

The economy kept slipping too, though. And the new regime became ever more unpopular. The US occupation now apparently is supported by just 2% of Iraqis. The Soviets too were at some point faced with the fact that the very people they said they were liberating from servitude had lost all confidence in them - going, as they were, simply on how bad things were going at the time.

What was the answer they came up with, both to reassure themselves and to declaim to those disgruntled folks? Don't judge us on the necessary hardships of this transition period - think about the beauty of the future we're creating for you! You will be free, you will be prosperous! Just as soon as we have achieved communism! And to achieve communism, you must understand, we just have to implement some unpopular measues now, for the enemies of democracy and people's power are all around us, still committing sabotage, still obstructing Our Big Project.

We will never get round to the beauty of that great future if we do not, for now, ignore the doubters and the whiners, who look only at the troubles of today, and would like us to stop right here in our tracks just because things havent immediately gotten all better yet! What do you expect? Of course things haven't gotten perfect straight away - communism isn't built in a day, it takes resolve, it takes the willingness to clench your teeth through the inevitable tough first days and see them through! And most of the things going wrong are the fault of the saboteurs and old-regime enemies, anyway.

No, what we ask you to do - what we demand of you - is to have Trust. Don't go on how badly things go today, what with all this paint splattering about in the form of blood and bombs and lack of basic services - think of the future. Think of what we're doing it all for. We're doing it all for you, you know, even if you hate us for it. We have to not care about your fickle public opinion, because to do so would endanger this one chance, this one window of opportunity to create a better future for this country. Think of the Sixtine Chapel of communism we're building, through this time of unyielding resolve!

No, dont judge us on how your life has changed so far through our actions - that would be unfair. Fair would be to have faith, close your eyes and instead smile inwardly, and there see, with eager anticipation, how much better things will be when they are what we're promising you they will be, eventually.

Every ideologist claims his actions should be measured by the goals they will achieve. But for all us non-believers out here, the saner thing is to judge a project on what it's actually creating and producing.

MG:-

Forgiving isn't really the word.

Couldn't care less more like which results in a similar outcome.Alaquifik in Arabic.Or Allahkeefik.
I never knew how to spell that much used word.

He is great though.

spendius.

Well, I was looking for forgiveness.

Nimh writes


You are mixing your metaphors my friend. The Communists did their deeds for the specific purpose of installing Communism in their vision of it and with the people having no say in the matter.

We have done and are doing our deeds:
1) As self defense retaliation against a hostile attack
2) To rid the world of a perceived unacceptable danger
3) To allow the Iraqi people the ability to chart their own future. (And yes, we hoped for a democracy in Iraq and, given the opportunity to have one,. the majority of Iraqis want that too.)

And then the USA will pack their duffel bags and return to America leaving Iraq in charge of its own destiny. The Communists had no intention of leaving anywhere they sunk their claws. . . ever.

Thus Obill's analogy, beautifully done, is the correct one.

Tico:-

Yes.I notice the similarities.Territorial and planting your balls in enemy fortifications.Like sex as well.

Sure,I know what you prefer.This discussion is about whether you might be better off preferring something else.There is cultural convergence going on in the world.We have adopted a lot of your ways and you could look like a sulky on this one.I just thought it would help your export drive a bit and maybe quite a bit.By heck these conservatives are stubborn.And they never,ever run the future.
It's a version of endogamy.

How do you know there's not some whizzer reading this and getting fired up to do it?You never know.
That cigar made me think it might be you.

spendius.

Spendius,

In my world the wise learn from their history as well as look to the future. I think conservatives do both. While there may be virtue in pursuing the impossible--many of the world's impossibilities have become reality in such pursuits--there is no virtue in continuing failed policies as perceived from long experience.

MG:-

What on earth for?

sp

Great speech Nimh. The difference is that not all remedies are hogwash.
The sales pitch for Dr. McGillicutty's Snake Oil, and penicillin may well be the same. But where one will only complicate things further; the other really is a cure. One need not take a very comprehensive look at the world's economies to see a marked difference between Democracy and Communism. Still, the Soviet Union was the second most powerful entity humankind has ever known... despite their system's glaring shortcomings.

( I thought of one for the druggies: One could point out some obvious similarities between marijuana and oregano, while it's still in the baggy… but only one of those will get you high… and people tend to get really upset if it doesn't.)

Furthermore, unlike the Soviets, we're NOT a colonial power, so the comparison is even less valid. If we were, the Iraqi future might look even brighter, though. Life ain't so bad in Puerto Rico you know. While life in Vietnam and Cambodia continues to be a struggle, you'll notice our thoroughly defeated foe tend to enjoy a far more prosperous fate. I think it's silly to deny the benefits of democracy and it's equally silly to classify an attempt provide people with self-determination to one that sought to deprive them of it. Even with your eloquence Nimh, that dog won't hunt.

I loved O'Bill's analogy as well He's once again trying to address (and reassure) those that continue to worry that real democracy cannot be born in violence. I guess some here have forgotten about America and France.

Meanwhile, GUESS what this picture depicts!!!

Yep, it's Iraq's FIRST political debate, ever! I LOVE this picture. Democracy being born As beautiful as the Sistine Chapel

Foxy:-

In my world the wise just learn,process and act.I don't know what "look to the future" means.Now care for the future is another matter especially for serious polluters.

There is no virtue pursuing the impossible.It is nowhere near impossible that the US could win the 2032 soccer World cup.It seems to me only a matter of deciding to go for it.Not scared of losing are we?

What impossibilities have become reality?

spendius.

It was no miracle that the USA went to the moon. As Astronaut Lovell said, "We just decided to go." But to previous generations it was an impossibilityas was sailing around the world to a former generation or hearing voices and seeing images from half a world away.

To argue that a thing is impossible because it has never been done before is a flimsy argument, especially when it has not been tried, and even more especially when it has been tried and has been effective.

Back in the middle of the 19th century three men - an Englishman, a Frenchman, and an American - walk into a small American town, to be greeted by fighting, gun play, shouting, bodies lying in the street, and other signs of mayhem.

The Englishman cries, "Good Lord, it's a riot!"

The Frenchman says, "Oh no, m'sr, 'tis a demonstration."

The American looks around and says, "Yer both wrong, it's an election."

I think the mods ought to move several of these posts to the "Still safe to masturbate" thread.