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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 08:08 am
Moishe3rd wrote:
A win in Iraq will be an independent government that is not hostile towards the United States or Israel.

What happened with the whole "bringing democracy to the Middle East" thing?

Perhaps I'm a cynic, but a democratically elected government in the Middle East thats not hostile to Israel aint not gonna happen. Looks like you might have to choose at some point in time (if not rather soon): bringing democracy - or installing an allied government? What would you choose? And what would that mean for the rationale for the war you've been proposing?
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 08:59 am
nimh wrote:
Moishe3rd wrote:
A win in Iraq will be an independent government that is not hostile towards the United States or Israel.

What happened with the whole "bringing democracy to the Middle East" thing?

Perhaps I'm a cynic, but a democratically elected government in the Middle East thats not hostile to Israel aint not gonna happen. Looks like you might have to choose at some point in time (if not rather soon): bringing democracy - or installing an allied government? What would you choose? And what would that mean for the rationale for the war you've been proposing?

There will be a democratically elected government in Iraq.
A "win" for the US will be if this government is not hostile to the United States.
I added Israel into the equation because I believe that if a new Iraqi government does not harbor the Islamic facist death cult antipathy towards the United States, then it will probably also squelch that particular irrational cult behavior towards Israel.
If this should happen, it will be a "win" for the United States.
If the new democratically elected government in Iraq establishes hostility towards the US and Israel, then we will have lost this particular battle.

However, I believe that the new, democratically elected government in Iraq will be friendly towards the United States and will make peace with Israel.
Admittedly, this particular belief is just that, a belief. It is not strongly founded in past performance and logic.
Nonetheless, I believe that this will happen under a strong Shia majority religious government with a strong Sunni Kurdish minority that will work hand in hand. The Baathist Sunni minority will eventually be crushed. It may take awhile. The foreign terrorists will hopefully be killed or forced out. The only unsettling part of this equation may be the hard necessity of Iraq (under a religious Shia government) going to war against Iran and Syria.
I suspect that both Iran and Syria will cease trying to destroy Iraq before this happens....
One can only hope.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 10:23 am
"...the Islamic facist death cult antipathy..."

Fascist?

Seriously, tell us how you really feel....
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:32 am
Moishe3rd wrote:
The only unsettling part of this equation may be the hard necessity of Iraq (under a religious Shia government) going to war against Iran and Syria.

Why would a religious Shia government in Iraq have to go to war with Iran? That would make two of 'em right - I mean, they'd both be religious Shia governments?

I think what the Sunnis are afraid of is rather that those Shiítes will wanna merge with Iran, eventually ...

Iran also poses a good example of how Shi'ites will not necessarily be any less anti-Israel than Sunnis ...

What I'm interested in, is:

If Iraq becomes a democracy, but the democratically elected government turns out to be hostile to the US, would America have won or lost this war?

And vice versa, if Iraq eventually gets a US-friendly government, but one that is not by any means democratic, would America have won or lost this war?

And how would your answer to those questions relate to the rationale given by the government for starting the war?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:09 pm
Quote:

Liberals Love America Like O.J. Loved Nicole
By Ann Coulter
January 6, 2005

Even the United Nations sponge who called the United States "stingy" immediately retracted the insult, saying he had been misinterpreted and that the U.S. was "most generous." But the New York Times was sticking with "stingy." In an editorial subtly titled "Are We Stingy? Yes," the Times said the U.N. sponge "was right on target." This followed up a patriotic editorial a few days earlier titled "America, the Indifferent."

America's stinginess is a long-standing leitmotif for liberals - which is getting hard to square with their love for America. When it comes to heaping insults on America, U.S. liberals are the nation's leading donors.


In 2003, the Center for Global Development - funded by the Rockefeller Foundation, despite the fact that it could have used that money on future tsunami victims - concluded that the U.S. ranked 20th out of 21 nations in helping poorer nations. This came as a surprise, inasmuch as the U.S. gives the highest absolute amounts of foreign aid to the developing world.

But as the study explained, the center "assesses policy effort rather than impact." As any liberal can tell you, it's not results that count, it's intentions! In other words, the CGD discounted some countries' foreign aid because the CGD decided it was the sort of aid that wouldn't work - even if, in the end, it did work.

The CGD's evaluation of "effort" somehow managed to bump U.S. contributions from the No. 1 spot to second-to-last. Sending the military to liberate millions of people from ruthless dictators, for example, did not count as "aid," whereas sending in peacekeepers afterward did.

The U.S. did not merely write a check to help the oppressed people of Afghanistan and Iraq: The U.S. did most of the fighting and liberating as well as a significant share of the dying. Where's Michael Moore with that up-to-the-minute body count of U.S. soldiers when you need him?

But in the words of the CGD, military aid doesn't count because "one country's security enhancement is another's destabilizing intervention" - you know, the way U.S. soldiers "destabilized" France in 1944. (My guess is, Presbyterian missionaries in the jungle don't get as many points as U.N. seminars on condom use either.)

Consequently, in 2003, Norway got 7.1 points for "peacekeeping." Denmark got 7.4 points. France got 5.2. The country that dispatched the Taliban and Saddam Hussein ñ- and, before that, ensured that the above countries would not be speaking German or Russian - got 1.5 points for "peacekeeping."

But at least we beat Japan! Except in other studies by liberals - who certainly do love their country - that claim Japan beats the U.S. in foreign aid donations.

Among Al Franken's proofs that Bill O'Reilly is a "liar" - in addition to his jaw-dropping revelation that O'Reilly's former TV show won a "Polk" and not a "Periwinkle" Award ñ- Franken attacked O'Reilly for having the audacity to say the U.S. gives more foreign aid than any other country in the world.

Responding to this outrage, Franken writes: "Japan gives more. Not per capita. More." (And Franken is the world's largest donor of mentions of his own USO tours.)

I guess there are as many ways to calculate "aid" as there are to calculate "love of country." According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, in 2003, the U.S. gave $37.8 billion out of a total $108.5 billion in foreign aid from the world's major countries ñ- notable for being more than three times the amount from the next largest donor, the Netherlands, clocking in at $12.2 billion. Americans make up about 5 percent of the world's population and give about 35 percent of the aid.

So it's interesting that a great patriot like Al Franken - who goes on USO tours regularly, in case he hasn't called you at home in the last 10 minutes to remind you - would choose the method of calculating foreign aid most disparaging to his country and call O'Reilly a "liar" for using a different calculus.

At a minimum, in order to discount the largesse of the United States, one must carefully exclude gigantic categories of aid, such as military aid, food aid, trade policies, refugee policies, religious aid, private charities and individual giving.

However "aid" is calculated, it is not that hard to calculate someone's affection for their country based on their propensity to tell slanderous lies about it.

Let's review.

The New York Times calls the U.S. "stingy" and runs letters to the editor redoubling the insult, saying: "The word 'stingy' doesn't even come close to accurately describing the administration's pathetic initial offer of aid. ... I am embarrassed for our country."

Al Franken flies into a rage upon discovering that O'Reilly imagines the U.S. is the most generous nation in the world.

The Washington Post criticizes Bush for not rushing back to Washington in response to the tsunami - amid unfavorable comparisons to German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, who immediately cut short his vacation and returned to Berlin. (Nothing snaps a German to attention like news of mass death!)

The prestigious Princeton "ethicist" Peter Singer, who endorses sex with animals and killing children with birth defects, says "when it comes to foreign aid, America is the most stingy nation on Earth."

And has some enterprising reporter asked Sen. Patty Murray what she thinks about the U.S.'s efforts on the tsunami? How about compared to famed philanthropist Osama bin Laden?

In December 2002, Murray was extolling Osama bin Laden's good works in the Middle East, informing a classroom of students: "He's been out in these countries for decades building roads, building schools, building infrastructure, building day-care facilities, building health-care facilities, and the people are extremely grateful. It made their lives better." What does Murray say about bin Laden's charity toward the (mostly Muslim) tsunami victims?

Speaking of world leaders admired by liberals, why isn't Fidel Castro giving the tsunami victims some of that terrific medical care liberals tell us he has been providing the people of Cuba?

Stipulating that liberals love America - which apparently depends on what the meaning of "love" is - do they love America as much as they love bin Laden and Castro?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:19 pm
Good old Ann Coulter... The Michael Moore of the right....
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:22 pm
Quote:
America the stingy
Larry Elder

January 6, 2005

"It is beyond me . . . why are we so stingy, really," said U.N. Undersecretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs Jan Egeland, after the tsunami in southern Asia. " . . . Christmastime should remind many Western countries at least, [of] how rich we have become. . . . " And in a statement that might shock defeated presidential candidate John Kerry, Egeland said voters want their taxes increased. " . . . n the United States, in the European Union, in Norway which is No. 1 in the world, we want to give more . . . as taxpayers. . . . [P]oliticians . . . belie[ve] that they are really burdening the taxpayers too much and the taxpayer wants to give less. That's not true. They want to give more."

Actually, Americans do want to give more -- with the emphasis on "give." Indeed, so far, Americans pledged over $200 million in tsunami aid. Normally, Catholic Relief Services' Web site receives $40,000 per month. Since the tsunami, online contributions are $100,000 per hour. The American Red Cross has received pledges over $100 million, with more pouring in daily. Yet on more than one occasion, former President Jimmy Carter sounded the America-is-cheap theme. On PBS television a few years ago, Carter said, "It's all very disturbing to me as a former president that this nation with generous people in it has become by far the stingiest nation on earth."

Here we go again.

Last year, American government provided 35 percent of worldwide relief aid. In private contributions, American individuals, estates, foundations and corporations gave over $240 billion to charitable causes in 2003, according to Giving USA Foundation. Privately, Americans give at least $34 billion overseas.

Josette Shiner, former Empower America president, points out that more than 80 percent of Americans belong to a "voluntary association," and 75 percent of households report charitable contributions. Shiner wrote in 1999, "Americans look even better compared to other leading nations. According to recent surveys, 73 percent of Americans made a charitable contribution in the previous 12 months, as compared to 44 percent of Germans, and 43 percent of French citizens. The average sum of donations over 12 months was $851 for Americans, $120 for Germans, and $96 for the French. In addition, 49 percent of Americans volunteered over the previous 12 months, as compared to 13 percent of Germans and 19 percent of the French."

Of the 184 subscriber nations of the World Bank -- which provides financial assistance and debt relief to developing countries for particular sectors or projects with low-interest loans, interest-free credit and grants -- contributions paid in by America make up over 17 percent. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) focuses on providing financing for general support of a country's balance of payments and international reserves. Again, of the IMF's 184 nations, the U.S. does the heavy lifting, providing 17.5 percent of contributions.

What about debt forgiveness? The United States forgave about $14 billion in foreign debt from the late '80s through 1995. Since 1994, the U.S. has worked with the Paris Club -- an informal forum of creditor countries -- to review, negotiate and adopt debt relief programs for poor countries, recently badgering France and Germany into agreeing to forgive 80 percent of the $39 billion owed by Iraq.

America twice assisted Europe in World Wars I and II. America took the lead in defeating the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and continues to provide troops and military assistance to European nations and Southeast Asia.

United Nations' Egeland brags about his native Norway, which, in giving, he says, "is No. 1 in the world." Norway gives 0.92 percent of their gross domestic product (GDP) to foreign aid development, versus 0.14 percent in this country. " . . . We have . . . no country up to the 1 percent . . . line of foreign assistance in general," says Egeland, "and we have, I think, three . . . Scandinavians that have exceeded -- and Holland -- the 0.7 percent line of gross national income for assistance." Yes, Holland gave $12.2 billion in foreign aid in 2003, but that was following two years in which it received more aid than it gave. Besides, these numbers overlook Americans' private contributions, which equal 2.2 percent of our GDP. Add the value of volunteer time contributed, and -- even when calculated at minimum wage -- that gives you another $100 billion.

Add in the amount of money spent to protect other (often wealthy) countries -- military spending is 3.3 percent of our GDP, versus Sweden's 1.7 percent, Denmark's 1.6 percent, Norway's 1.9 percent, and Holland's 1.6 percent -- and, as Ronald Reagan might have put it, not bad. Not bad at all.

As to the tragedy in southern Asia, consider other actions taken by the United States so far: providing aircraft carriers, transport planes, helicopters, military support, logistical support, ships carrying food supplies, reconnaissance planes and warships, sending disaster assistance teams, shuttling supplies and advance teams to Sumatra's northwest coast and sending cargo planes carrying Marines and water purification equipment to Sri Lanka.


Former President Clinton, never missing an opportunity to take a swipe at a sitting president, said a few days after the tsunami, "It is really important that somebody take the lead in this." Well, Mr. Clinton, someone has -- America. Like always.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:37 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Good old Ann Coulter... The Michael Moore of the right....


I think, even worse:

Ann Coulter wrote:
(Nothing snaps a German to attention like news of mass death!)



I wonder what she had said, if he hadn't returned. Perhaps something like

"Socialist German chancellor doesn't care about several thousand killed and missed citizens"
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 03:17 pm
Ticomaya wrote:


one day, this woman's hatred is gonna burn her to the ground. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 03:31 pm
Ticomaya, quoting Ann Coulter wrote:
United Nations' Egeland brags about his native Norway, which, in giving, he says, "is No. 1 in the world." Norway gives 0.92 percent of their gross domestic product (GDP) to foreign aid development, versus 0.14 percent in this country. "[..] we have, I think, three . . . Scandinavians that have exceeded -- and Holland -- the 0.7 percent line of gross national income for assistance." Yes, Holland gave $12.2 billion in foreign aid in 2003, but that was following two years in which it received more aid than it gave.

Holland received development aid? LOL!

Err, no. We've been giving about 0,7% of our GDP for years now. The last right-wing government lowered it by 0,1%, to great indignation of the left. That's about the most exciting I have to report on that number.

Ticomaya, quoting Ann Coulter wrote:
Besides, these numbers overlook Americans' private contributions, which equal 2.2 percent of our GDP.

Err, yeah ... AND they overlook the private contributions of all the other countries' citizens as well.

So unless you want to start comparing apples (Norway's government-dispensed development aid) with oranges (America's government-dispensed development aid PLUS Americans' private contributions), you're not going to get away with just that.

Ticomaya, quoting Ann Coulter wrote:
Add the value of volunteer time contributed, and -- even when calculated at minimum wage -- that gives you another $100 billion.

Same on that one. Anyone think he knows that the Americans spent significantly more time on volunteer work than the Norwegians or Danes?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 03:43 pm
Ann Coulter wrote:
Among Al Franken's proofs that Bill O'Reilly is a "liar" - in addition to his jaw-dropping revelation that O'Reilly's former TV show won a "Polk" and not a "Periwinkle" Award ñ- Franken attacked O'Reilly for having the audacity to say the U.S. gives more foreign aid than any other country in the world.

Responding to this outrage, Franken writes: "Japan gives more. Not per capita. More." (And Franken is the world's largest donor of mentions of his own USO tours.)

I think Franken and Coulter should just give up the pretense... they obviously have the hots for each other.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 04:06 pm
nimh wrote:
So unless you want to start comparing apples (Norway's government-dispensed development aid) with oranges (America's government-dispensed development aid PLUS Americans' private contributions), you're not going to get away with just that.


Let's do... you got the numbers?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 04:16 pm
Well, our apples to apples discussion will have to wait, in any event. I'm leaving for home now, where I have had no electricty for the 2nd day in a row ... damn ice storms. Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 06:16 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
nimh wrote:
So unless you want to start comparing apples (Norway's government-dispensed development aid) with oranges (America's government-dispensed development aid PLUS Americans' private contributions), you're not going to get away with just that.


Let's do... you got the numbers?


What else does Norway need to spend money on? More fjord bridges? Laughing
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 08:02 pm
You must be in or near WIchita Tico. Friends there are without power and with a brand new baby too. Not a good situation.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 08:50 pm
nimh wrote:
What I'm interested in, is:

If Iraq becomes a democracy, but the democratically elected government turns out to be hostile to the US, would America have won or lost this war?
war?


Who cares????? One of my favorite Iraqis wrote something a couple of months ago that, if nothing else, puts all of this in perspective for me.

He said:

Quote:
In Iraq for a long time a revolution seemed to us to be the only way to overthrow Saddam and achieve our dreams in freedom, justice and democracy. There's always something fascinating about revolution especially for people like us who suffered for a long time under a very brutal dictatorship. I used to watch the injustice that's happening allover the world and the people's silence about it and think that the only thing that's going to save us is a wide revolution that spreads through Iraq to the neighboring countries, as the only thing the people of the advanced world seemed to be interested in was delivering fast aid to areas in most need for it, to make our suffering less terrible but not to deal with the primary cause that was continuously causing such crisis. It's a noble and generous effort but it wasn't enough, as we didn't want to just live, we wanted to live as human beings.


Imagine what he and his countrymen have been through and yet he is still able to maintain this optimistic view of the future. We could all take lessons from him.

I purposely saved this long post of his to read on days when the tedious whining and moaning about the bleak picture in Iraq rears its ugly head.

I don't care about the UN resolutions. I don't care about America's lack of cooperation from other countries. I care about people like Ali who wants to live as a human being.

I don't think you're all that cynical, Nimh. I think you're pessimistic. Read Virginia Postrel's "The Future and Its Enemies" if you get a chance. It's a quick read. She encourages us to cultivate a worldview not by how we see the present, but the future, pointing out that human betterment depends upon creativity and decentralized, open-ended trial and error.

Negativity. John Kerry focused on it ad nauseum and I think that's precisely what lost him the election.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 10:19 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
You must be in or near WIchita Tico. Friends there are without power and with a brand new baby too. Not a good situation.


Yeah, Foxy ... I'm in Wichita. We got lucky and our power was turned on several hours ago, but thousands are still without. Hope your friends have someplace to go ...
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 10:29 pm
an excellent example of "Whats Wrong With Kansas" (oh I forgot, that book was about kansas republican politics)
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 10:33 pm
dyslexia wrote:
an excellent example of "Whats Wrong With Kansas" (oh I forgot, that book was about kansas republican politics)


That book is about democrat politics.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 10:39 pm
yeah right, you read it? I thought not.
0 Replies
 
 

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