Bush supporters' aftermath thread

that's odd... i watched the leno show, but i didn't catch the overwhelming booing that jw alludes to. yeah, there was some of that, but it was outweighed by the cheers. and what he said was, "i have to give it to the republicans. they are much better at telling a story than the democrats".

and he's right about that. the dems will need to focus more heavily on distilling "the message" next time.

look, i don't but every single thing that michael moore is telling. some of it is way to over the top for me. however, i find it difficult to understand the completely irrational hatred that some people have for him. even if you don't like him, it's important for people like him to be around so that there is a diversity of perspective and point of view.

which is why, even though i feel like people like ann coulter and hannity are completely full of opportunistic b.s., i believe they have a right to be heard.

and as a point of reference; when coulter was on bill maher, she got a little polite "golf applause", she was "loudly booed".

i'm sure that some viewers saw it as the other way around, though...

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Don't Tread - Distilling the message? What message? There was no message, LOL.

And, no...there were no "cheers" that I heard. If there were, they were drowned out by the boos.

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JustWonders wrote:

Don't Tread - Distilling the message? What message? There was no message, LOL.

And, no...there were no "cheers" that I heard. If there were, they were drowned out by the boos.

okay jw. but ya know, "denial ain't just a river in egypt". :wink:

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Steppenwolf wrote:

Moore is disliked by people of many political persuasions, including Californians not in the 44%. As part of the weeping 48% of the nation...

Weeping 48% of the nation? What is 48% of the nation weeping about? Surely not John Kerry's loss, since only 30% of all eligible voters chose to vote for him. Idea

I agree with you about Michael Moore serving an important role in society: The singing canary in the mineshaft of freedom. The man made millions on a movie that implied our President was in league with our enemies, while we're at war and during an election year. That's ample reason to despise him and proof positive that we retain our freedom of speech.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Steppenwolf wrote:
Moore is disliked by people of many political persuasions, including Californians not in the 44%. As part of the weeping 48% of the nation...
Weeping 48% of the nation? What is 48% of the nation weeping about? Surely not John Kerry's loss, since only 30% of all eligible voters chose to vote for him.

I agree with you about Michael Moore serving an important role in society: The singing canary in the mineshaft of freedom. The man made millions on a movie that implied our President was in league with our enemies, while we're at war and during an election year. That's ample reason to despise him and proof positive that we retain our freedom of speech.

Off the few discussions we've had, this exchange is the most bizarre and unfulfilling (others were enjoyable). Your post is essentially non-responsive to mine, even though you quoted me.

Regarding the first part of the post, 48% was shorthand for the election results, which I take as a rough estimate of support. I suspect you know this, and I wonder why this nitpick has never come up regarding comments about 51% of America. If turnout is the only indication of support (and I think that it is not), then not only did less than 48% support Kerry, but an unflattering minority supported Bush. Of course, that can't be where you're headed. What then is a better proxy for support, turnout or voting results? If you answer the former, I expect you to apply such a standard to Bush supporters and Kerry supporters equally -- surely that's not asking too much. I am therefore surprised that you took issue with an off-the-cuff statement about Kerry supporters that is essentially the corollary to many of the celebratory Pro-Bush remarks made on this forum -- all of which appear to argue that a voting majority implies an actual majority, and none of which have been greeted by your comments regarding turnout. I hope it wasn't the "weeping" bit that evoked this response; that was as clear a hyperbole as one can make. No, I don't actually think that a sizable chunk of America was literally crying, but I suspect you knew that as well.

Regarding the second part of your post, I'm a bit mystified. I'm also worried that you're so eager to negatively react to my post that you haven't even read it. You agree with me re: Michael Moore serving an important role? You appear to be responding to something I didn't write. My comments about Moore did not imply an "important role in society;" I was entirely non-complementary towards Mr. Moore. Yes, I'm glad for freedom of speech, but that wasn't part of my post. Wink

If you wish to draw me into an argument, please be more sensible about sticking to points I've actually made. And if you have a better metric for support than the vote, I urge you to pass this on to developing democratic nations, the Democratic party, and the Republican Party.

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While I have no particular regard or respect for Moore as auteure, I would stand firmly against anyone who would deny him the right and opportunity to present his viewpoint.

I wouldn't feel real bad should he come legitimately to grief for libel, slander, or over-eating, though.

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Apologies Steppenwolf... the second paragraph of my post was actually in response to DontTreadOnMe's post above, not yours. Embarrassed

If you look at that one, it'll make more sense and was, in fact, in agreement.

As for the weeping 48% though; that one I can't come back on. It is simply not true. In the 2004 election apathy beat both George Bush and John Kerry by a decent margin. The words do matter to me because I'm tired of the endless nonsense about "half the country" being torn up when clearly less than a third have a legitimate gripe. Over 2/3's of the eligible voters in the United States either thought Bush was the better man or didn't care enough of it to get off their ass and vote. No one in this 2/3's has any business weeping about it now and frankly I don't believe they are. I would further speculate that a good deal of Kerry voters were barely in the Kerry camp anyway (I wasn't in Bush's by much)... so many of them wouldn't be too torn up about his loss either. It isn't just your post that's got me responding this way. I'm tired of the constant Bush is a divider, not a unite-er mantra being endlessly pushed by those who don't wish to accept the fairly elected leader of our land. I don't place you in the extreme category, Step, I place that 48% of the nation is weeping statement there and responded accordingly. Nothing against you whatsoever my friend.

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Fair enough on both accounts. Honestly, the "weeping" bit was no more than a cute (quasi-humorous) way of referring to Kerry voters, many of which I'm sure are not Moore fans, and most of which are undoubtedly not actually crying about the elections (I certainly hope not). Needless to say, the same holds true of the non-voters, as you point out. Like you, I'm also certain that the nation isn't being torn asunder. After a little confusion, It appears we have no beef with each other on this one. Very Happy

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That's a point that bears emphasizin', O'Bill. Plain and simple, less than a third of The Electorate saw fit to vote to unseat The Incumbent, no matter how many folks voted, or for whom they voted. Now while that doesn't translate to a better-than-67% Republican mandate, it by the same token belies any supposition that "nearly half The Country" voted Democratic.

What the ardent Democrats fail to realize is that Bush the Greater is not dividing The Nation, but rather that The Democratic Party steadily has been distancing itself, dividing itself, from The Majority. No outside influence is to blame for the ongoing decline of The Democratic Party; it has brought itself, under its own direction, to where it stands.

With the exception of the very exceptional FDR, the only Democrats to have won The Presidency with a majority, not a mere plurality, of the popular vote, were LBJ in 1964, Franklin Pierce in 1852, and Martin Van Buren in 1836. Republican candidates, on the other hand, have achieved clear majority popular vote more than dozen times between the 1854 birth of The Republican Party and now. In the past century, only FDR and LBJ among The Democrats have managed the feat, while Reagan and Eisenhower each did it twice, Bush the Elder, Nixon, Hoover, Coolidge, and Taft each did it once. Apart from FDR's unprecedented and unmatched reign, Clinton and Wilson are the only Democrats to have been re-elected in over a century. Republicans don't win every Presidential Election, but Democrats have lost most of them. For all their pretensions, The Democratic Party is, and for a century and a half traditionally has been, The Opposition Party; its a role they seem to have mastered.

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timberlandko wrote:

That's a point that bears emphasizin', O'Bill. Plain and simple, less than a third of The Electorate saw fit to vote to unseat The Incumbent, no matter how many folks voted, or for whom they voted. Now while that doesn't translate to a better-than-67% Republican mandate, it by the same token belies any supposition that "nearly half The Country" voted Democratic.

good stuff timber. and happy holidays, by the way.

in light of your coments, i feel like, o.k., let us instead say that nearly half of those that voted, voted democrat, or at least for a candidate other than bush

does that work better for folks here?

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timberlandko wrote:

While I have no particular regard or respect for Moore as auteure, I would stand firmly against anyone who would deny him the right and opportunity to present his viewpoint.

that's because you do understand what america is all about.

timberlandko wrote:

I wouldn't feel real bad should he come legitimately to grief for libel, slander, or over-eating, though.

and because i believe i know that you understand what the stakes are, i do not begrudge you your opinion.

although it's probable that mickey will explode before he loses to a trial lawyer.

it's all that time sitting in front of an editing system and eating fast food, i tell ya. :wink:

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Quote:

although it's probable that mickey will explode before he loses to a trial lawyer.

So, DTOM....what did you think when Moore showed up on Leno clean-shaven, haircut, and wearing a SUIT????

(He said he hadn't worn a suit since he was four, LOL)

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JustWonders wrote:

Quote:
although it's probable that mickey will explode before he loses to a trial lawyer.

So, DTOM....what did you think when Moore showed up on Leno clean-shaven, haircut, and wearing a SUIT????

(He said he hadn't worn a suit since he was four, LOL)

dunno... guess he was making some kind of a statement. he did say something like," if ya can't beat 'em, look like 'em". guess there's some logic to that. worked for tom hayden...

i thought it was interesting that he pulled f 9/11 from the doc catagory for the oscars so it could run on t.v. don't know if you have friends in the biz or not, but nobody runs in the opposite direction from an OSCAR!

i mean, oscar?? jeez, oscar guarantees free lunch for at least 6 months.

bein' that it's the season, i'll throw ya bone. yesterday when i was telling the wife about the conversation you and i had about moore, she looked at me and said; "well, michael can be a dick sometimes".

happy holidays, jw. Smile

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LOL, DTOM! The very last thing Moore needs is a "free" lunch! :wink:

He did manage to slip in a bit of bragging about how much money F9/11 made him, regardless of the election outcome. I think we all know where his main priorities are Smile

I do remember there was talk of a sequel to F9/11. Wonder if that's still in the works. I still haven't seen the first one, although I did manage to wade through the transcript.

I guess his supporters here can't wait until his expose on the health care industry is released. Him being such a poster boy for physical fitness and preventative medicine and all. Laughing

Your better half sounds like a smart woman Smile

Merry Christmas to you and yours Razz

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JustWonders wrote:

LOL, DTOM! The very last thing Moore needs is a "free" lunch! :wink:

I do remember there was talk of a sequel to F9/11. Wonder if that's still in the works. I still haven't seen the first one, although I did manage to wade through the transcript.

really?? you haven't seen it? ya should. it is biased, of course. but i think that the impact of the footage would not be lost on you. not that i'd expect it to change your mind. probably won't. and yea, there's a couple of things that made me rool my eyes; "wha??". but overall, it's worth the time.

JustWonders wrote:

Your better half sounds like a smart woman Merry Christmas to you and yours

ohh, she is. she tells me so all the time! Laughing

no really, my wife is a very intelligent individual. keeps me on my toes, i tell ya!

yep, jw, tis the season. yay!! :wink:

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

JustWonders wrote:
LOL, DTOM! The very last thing Moore needs is a "free" lunch! :wink:

I do remember there was talk of a sequel to F9/11. Wonder if that's still in the works. I still haven't seen the first one, although I did manage to wade through the transcript.

really?? you haven't seen it? ya should. it is biased, of course. but i think that the impact of the footage would not be lost on you. not that i'd expect it to change your mind. probably won't. and yea, there's a couple of things that made me rool my eyes; "wha??". but overall, it's worth the time.

"You can take a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a bull's ass, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's word for it?" -- Tommy Boy, 1995

That quote always comes to mind when someone suggests I watch F9/11. Laughing

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Ticomaya wrote:

"You can take a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a bull's ass, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's word for it?" -- Tommy Boy, 1995

That quote always comes to mind when someone suggests I watch F9/11.

:wink: yeah, but don't you want to have first hand knowledge of what you are for or against?

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Not gloating - work to do!!
Not gloating - I am satisfied with the election results. It is time for the conservative right to stand up and put America back on a straight path. Go Bush.

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we support democrcay Bush says and calls Karzi our friend, Karzi the military coop d'etat head of state that continues to avoid elections. Of course there remains Putin Bush's other good friend that snatches dictatorship from the jaws of democracy. Yeah right, go Bush.

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Don't forget Musharaf.

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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

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