0
   

Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 02:34 am
georgeob1 wrote:
I don't deny the systematic, from the top and, to a degree, even the cynical accusations you are making. However I believe your comparative references are grossly lacking in historical perspective.

.....


Okay that's a concession, for which I thank you.

I will concede I have used hyperbole to point to the mess we are in now. Which I believe is a very big moral mess indeed.

We are supposed to be a society governed by laws. To quote the Christian Bible

"If the salt has lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted?"
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 02:53 am
You have a point, McTag. I too wondered where our country was going when our president came before the American people, looked us in the eye and said--I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinski. I also wondered why he perjured himself and was declared to be in contempt of court by Judge Wright. I was mystified as to why he caused the Democrats to lose control of the House and Senate which they had held for decades. I was very uncomfortable in his final weeks when he took a plea bargain, agreeing that he lied and having his law license revoked for five years. The most egregious failure came when he pardoned many felons including one whose wife gave a very large sum to build his library.

I too was confused. But now we have a leader who has shown us the way. Now you may not agree. That is unimportant. THE FACT remains that President Bush was elected by the American people in 2000, The GOP, against all tradition, actually increased GOP seats in the House and Senate and President Bush was re-elected in 2004.

I am very much afraid that although your posts may be humorous, they mean nothing to the governance of the USA.

Cheers- McTag!!
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 02:57 am
With his world view, McTag may be interested in the book Published in 1918--The Decline of the West by Oswald Spengler.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 06:27 am
It is my gloomy though self-imposed task to attempt to hold up a mirror. What you see in it is up to you. I personally am ashamed to be ruled by a government which followed the course America set, I'm not levelling all blame at Washington.
The antics of Mr Clinton in his final months in power are outside of our scope here I think, but serve as a lesson of how far a president will go to hang on to power, and the ability of that power to corrupt. And, the utter contempt of top politicians for the truth, and for the people they are supposed to serve.
Don't talk to me about democracy, please, it is largely absent in all of this; and pray we may sometime soon get back our checks and balances.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 07:24 am
Mortkat wrote:
With his world view, McTag may be interested in the book Published in 1918--The Decline of the West by Oswald Spengler.


Not only from his posts here but from personal knowledge I'm sure that McTag is immunne against such nazi literature.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 11:21 am
McTag wrote:
It is my gloomy though self-imposed task to attempt to hold up a mirror. What you see in it is up to you. I personally am ashamed to be ruled by a government which followed the course America set, I'm not levelling all blame at Washington.
.


Dour Scot ! Are you sure that your mirror is not just a bit distorted?

I suspect that a central difference here is that you place a good deal more value and hope on the instruments of international governance than do I and several others here. That is also, in my view, a central part of the friction between the United States and Europe. I assume some still entertain hopes that the lofty words of the UN Charter can be turned into practical political practice in the current era. I believe the practice of 50 years has demonstrated clearly the internal contradictions in the UN structure and that, in practice, it can function only in cases in which there is already general agreement or in which the outcome is unimportant. In other more serious issues it either evades them entirely or facilitates only the illusion of meaningful action. Perhaps the passage of more time will enable the political maturation of major areas of the world necessary for the reliance on such trans-national institutions. We can all hope and wait for that outcome, but until it occurs, we must rely on the actions of nation states to ensure ther safety and stability of our lives.

I was quite bemused by the hubris of the Belgian goverrnment in its claims of universal jurisdiction for its courts in certain matters. If my recollection is correct, at one point there was even a suit filed against Secretrary Rumsfield. What is most interesting to me was the concurrent absence of any action with respect to some of the real villains in this world, in the former Belgian colony of Rwanda, or more recently Sudan. I believe this and the corrupt UN Human Rights Commission are accurate models of the futire behavior of the much-vaunted International Criminal Court. I'm not necessarily opposed to the development of such things - they may one day become useful. However presuming to rely on them in the absence of any effective political structure is foolhardy. In practice it can provide only false comfort, the illussion that serious problems are being dealt with, -- and that is positively dangerous.

I susprect that Europe is both weary after a century of war and revolution and, at the same time, a bit intoxicated at the so far brilliant success of the EU. These experiences may have created an excess faith in the potential of organizations and bureaucratic process for the resolution of serious problems. My experience of life has reinforced a personal maxim to the effect that " real problems require real solutions, but reorganization is almost never a real solution." As the recent EU constitutional crisis illustrated, the next few decades are likely to involve some very difficult times dealing with the inevitabvle contradictions in the EU political process. Moreover this must be done while Europe confronts the accelerating consequences of its demographic decline. Difficult tasks indeed.

Putting all this together, I believe you should broaden your field of view as you consider just what are the relative high and low points of Western Civilization. Contemporary judgements on these questions are usually wrong, and there are many relevant factors here which I believe you have left out of your calculus.

All that said, it is a big world and there is room enough for the odd dour Scot, the Westphalian humorist & fact checker, and even a few hot-headed Irish Americans.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 11:49 am
As far as relative low points of Western Civilization and their locii - European flavor, anyhow - I'd put the most proximate nadir at the timeframe encompassed by the development and marketing of the Renalt Dauphine.


Though I gotta say the Trabant and the Yugo each come close to providing a match.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 12:35 pm
The Ford Edsel and Chevrolet Vega are contenders as well.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 12:38 pm
Edsel=Lincoln sucking a lemon.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 12:41 pm
Yeah, I'll grant that - and toss in the Ford Pinto, too. Had a Vega once, though; not really a bad little car, as long as you didn't let it overheat - that aluminum head/cast iron block/low-flow, low-volume engine cooling system was really stupid. Put a couple hundred thousand miles on it before a shock mount rusted though. Pop-rivets and sheet aluminum were fine for door and fender panels and floorboards, but just not adequate for structural repairs Laughing
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 12:44 pm
Oh, and Dys - that was "A Mercury sucking a lemon"
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 12:45 pm
not in my neighborhood.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 12:53 pm
Dys is the ultimate cranky contrarian. I sometimes try hard, but I'm not in the same league.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 01:36 pm
dys is not cranky; he's a witty cowboy that pushes the envelope.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 02:20 pm
I hope he isnt pushing it uphill
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 02:31 am
Victory in name only

Empty talk of turning points has failed to stop Bush's election triumph being reduced to ashes

Sidney Blumenthal
Friday December 30, 2005
The Guardian
In his second inaugural address, George Bush four times summoned the image of fire - "a day of fire", "we have lit a fire", "fire in the minds of men", and "untamed fire". Over the course of the first year of his second term, all four of the ancient Greek elements have wreaked havoc: the fire of war, the air and water of Hurricane Katrina, the earth ravaged by whirlwinds raging from Iraq to Florida, from Louisiana to Washington. Through obsession or obliviousness, rigidity or laziness, Bush got himself singed, tossed about, engulfed, and nearly buried.

entire article at

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1675185,00.html
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 07:39 am
Read this, then read it again.

Quote:
Recently in a debate with Doug Cassel, John Yoo took part in the following exchange:

Cassel: If the president deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person's child, there is no law that can stop him?

Yoo: No treaty...

Cassel: Also no law by Congress -- that is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo...

Yoo: I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Yoo
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 08:18 am
Quote:
Ex-Envoy: U.K. Received Info Via Torture
By SUE LEEMAN, Associated Press Writer

LONDON -- A former British ambassador has published government documents he says prove that Britain knowingly received intelligence extracted under torture from prisoners in Uzbekistan.

Craig Murray, who was removed as ambassador to Uzbekistan after going public about his concerns, defied a Foreign Office ban to publish the internal memos on his Web site Friday. The documents include memos to Foreign Office chiefs in which Murray expressed his concern over the use of "torture material."

In one memo, Murray said he was told by Foreign Office legal adviser Sir Michael Wood that it was not illegal to use information acquired by torture, except in legal proceedings. Intelligence officer Matthew Kydd had also told him the intelligence services sometimes found such material "very useful indeed, with a direct bearing on the war on terror," he said.

Murray said that even after he alerted his bosses to his concerns, they continued to use material allegedly gained under torture "on the grounds that the UK could not prove that individual detainees were tortured to extract information."

"I have dealt with hundreds of individual cases of political or religious prisoners in Uzbekistan, and I have met with very few where torture, as defined in the U.N. convention, was not employed," he wrote.

full article
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 08:24 am
blatham - are you going to cross-post the above in multiple threads, as well?

Pardon my observation, but isn't it rather juvenile to continue ignoring repeated requests to stay on topic in this thread?

We supporters do, afterall, peruse the anti-Bush threads and while it's somewhat amusing to note your zeal, isn't it a bit redundant?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 09:18 am
JW

I understand you'd prefer if this thread functioned in the manner of a Bush public appearance where dissent is functionally illegal and unpatriotic. Sorry, you're not going to get that.

As to duplicating a post on two threads, not the same people attend to both.

As to relevance, the aftermath of the last election and Bush win has as one significant consequence, the continuation of a morality which validates torture of humans.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 07/19/2025 at 08:25:21