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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 06:17 pm
Courtesy of the Drudge Report that dug into its archives today:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/images/20011026-5.jpg

Quote:
FLASHBACK: DEM LEADER HARRY REID ALL SMILES AT PATRIOT ACT SIGNING

THE DRUDGE REPORT has uncovered a photograph of President Bush signing the Patriot Act in the East Room of the White House on October 26, 2001.

And standing over the President's shoulder with a smile on his face is Democratic Senate Minority Harry Reid (D-NV)!

Reid is currently leading efforts in the Senate to block the renewal of the Patriot Act.

After Reid successfully prevented the Patriot Act's renewal late last week the Senator attended a Democrat political rally and proudly declared, "We killed the Patriot Act."

One Republican strategist familiar with the photo said, "Democrats think they can regain the majority? Not a chance if they continue to put politics above what's best for the country. Harry Reid is making a colossal miscalculation, but it's not the first time and thankfully for us, probably not the last."

Developing...

http://www.drudgereport.com/pa.htm
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 06:52 pm
I think nimh is a pretty damned good statistician (and he makes pretty charts and graphs, too) - and for the sake of the record, I'll point out the "dispute" between nimh and timber re statistics has pretty much been a fun game of back-and-forth "Gotchya"; no winner, no loser, just lotsa play.

And also for the record, I'll offer that I'm confident what the Democrats perceive here to be a smoking gun will in fact turn out to be just that, and in keeping with established tradition, will be found firmly in the Democrats' own fist, pointing directly at the latest hole in their own foot.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 07:16 pm
I wonder if Bob Graham knew what Bush was signing?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 07:18 pm
I wonder if Bush knew what he was signing. Wink
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 07:24 pm
Quote:
Clinton Claimed Authority to Order No-Warrant Searches
Does anyone remember that?


In a little-remembered debate from 1994, the Clinton administration argued that the president has "inherent authority" to order physical searches ?- including break-ins at the homes of U.S. citizens ?- for foreign intelligence purposes without any warrant or permission from any outside body. Even after the administration ultimately agreed with Congress's decision to place the authority to pre-approve such searches in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) court, President Clinton still maintained that he had sufficient authority to order such searches on his own.

"The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes," Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick testified before the Senate Intelligence Committee on July 14, 1994, "and that the President may, as has been done, delegate this authority to the Attorney General."

"It is important to understand," Gorelick continued, "that the rules and methodology for criminal searches are inconsistent with the collection of foreign intelligence and would unduly frustrate the president in carrying out his foreign intelligence responsibilities."

Executive Order 12333, signed by Ronald Reagan in 1981, provides for such warrantless searches directed against "a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power."

Reporting the day after Gorelick's testimony, the Washington Post's headline ?- on page A-19 ?- read, "Administration Backing No-Warrant Spy Searches." The story began, "The Clinton administration, in a little-noticed facet of the debate on intelligence reforms, is seeking congressional authorization for U.S. spies to continue conducting clandestine searches at foreign embassies in Washington and other cities without a federal court order. The administration's quiet lobbying effort is aimed at modifying draft legislation that would require U.S. counterintelligence officials to get a court order before secretly snooping inside the homes or workplaces of suspected foreign agents or foreign powers."

In her testimony, Gorelick made clear that the president believed he had the power to order warrantless searches for the purpose of gathering intelligence, even if there was no reason to believe that the search might uncover evidence of a crime. "Intelligence is often long range, its exact targets are more difficult to identify, and its focus is less precise," Gorelick said. "Information gathering for policy making and prevention, rather than prosecution, are its primary focus."

The debate over warrantless searches came up after the case of CIA spy Aldrich Ames. Authorities had searched Ames's house without a warrant, and the Justice Department feared that Ames's lawyers would challenge the search in court. Meanwhile, Congress began discussing a measure under which the authorization for break-ins would be handled like the authorization for wiretaps, that is, by the FISA court. In her testimony, Gorelick signaled that the administration would go along a congressional decision to place such searches under the court ?- if, as she testified, it "does not restrict the president's ability to collect foreign intelligence necessary for the national security." In the end, Congress placed the searches under the FISA court, but the Clinton administration did not back down from its contention that the president had the authority to act when necessary.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 07:24 pm
I wonder if Bush can write cursive.
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Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 07:30 pm
Ticomaya- You are undoubtedly referring to Executive Order 12944 from February 9th 1995 which expressly authorized the Attorney General to "approve physical searches, WITHOUT A COURT ORDER, for periods up to a year..."

A good post covering all angles, Ticomaya.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 07:42 pm
"Executive Order 12333, signed by Ronald Reagan in 1981, provides for such warrantless searches directed against "a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power."
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 07:48 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
"Executive Order 12333, signed by Ronald Reagan in 1981, provides for such warrantless searches directed against "a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power."


.... and .....?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 07:50 pm
Doesn't say anything about spying on American citizens without court apporval.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 07:58 pm
Our government is spying on Americans - unapologetically, unnecessarily and with no regard for the Constitution.

The nation was shocked when President Bush acknowledged he has been secretly authorizing the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on phone calls and e-mails from Americans and other U.S. residents. When done without a court order, this kind of eavesdropping is both unconstitutional and illegal under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Today, the ACLU released new FBI documents, uncovered through Freedom of Information Act requests on behalf of over 150 domestic political and religious groups in 20 states. These documents confirm that the FBI is using its counterterrorism resources to monitor and infiltrate peaceful activist groups such as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, Greenpeace and United for Peace and Justice. It is now clear that the FBI has expanded its definition of "domestic terrorism" to include citizens and groups that participate in lawful protests or civil disobedience.

These people are not part of al Qaida or the Taliban.
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Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 07:59 pm
Oh yes, it does. Executive order 12944 says specifically--

"The Attorney General, is authorized to approve physical searches,
W I T H O U T A C O U R T O R D E R to acquire foreign intelligence information"
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:04 pm
Gatos you seem to be slipping, in the past you have, at least attempted, to offer rational argument.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:06 pm
According to Kay Bailey Hutchinson on TV this morning, the administration is targeting only international calls that are placed or received by those believed to be involved in terrorist activities. Any adminsitration that did not do this would be derelict in its Constiuttional repsonsibilities and every administration has done it since there have been the means to do so.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:14 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Doesn't say anything about spying on American citizens without court apporval.


What if that American citizen is an agent of a foreign power?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:15 pm
In a decision dated November 18 2002, pertaining to Sealed Case No. 02-001, The United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, denying an appeal stemming from a prosecution under The Patriot Act, cited a Circuit Court decision from 1980, which dealt with a relevant point of law from a constitutional perspective, United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980). In the Truong decision, the finding was that the Executive was excused from applicable 4th Ammendment proscriptions provided " ... the object of the search or the surveillance is a foreign power, its agents or collaborators," and "the surveillance is conducted ?'primarily' for foreign intelligence reasons." The 4th Circuit Court, in rejecting the appellant's argument, stated: " ... The Truong court [United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 4th Cir. 1980], as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information."


Pretty much looks to me as though clear established precedent puts Bush and The NSA on firm ground here.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:18 pm
Kay Bailey Hutchinson is a miscreant with the ethics of a republican which is to say none at all. And here we go again with others have done it so now it's ok crap. It's either right or it's wrong no matter who has done it before. It's really difficult for me to hear this from the political party that has such a solid history of constitutinal law over party politics. Sad, really, really sad.
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Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:22 pm
Dyslexia- What are you talking about?

If Documentation is not enough for you and you don't understand what it says, get someone to read it for you.

It is Executive Order 12944.

Excerpt--

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS AUTHORIZED TO APPROVE PHYSICAL SEARCHES WITHOUT A COURT ORDER TO ACQUIRE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE INFORMATION.

Read it and ponder and then read Timberlandko's piece and then re-read Ticomaya's post.

Then, if you wish, make A SPECIFIC demurrer focusing on the Substance in the posts.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:23 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Kay Bailey Hutchinson is a miscreant with the ethics of a republican which is to say none at all. And here we go again with others have done it so now it's ok crap. It's either right or it's wrong no matter who has done it before. It's really difficult for me to hear this from the political party that has such a solid history of constitutinal law over party politics. Sad, really, really sad.


If its wrong,why wasnt Carter or Clinton or Reagan or Bush 1 prosecuted for doing the exact same thing?

There was no outrage then,so there should be no outrage now.
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Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:28 pm
Again, Dyslexia. let us assume that you are correct and that any wiretapping DESPITE the evidence given by Ticomaya and Timberlandko IS I N D E E D U N C O N S T I T U T I O N A L.

You do know, of course, how that must be adjudicated. By the Supreme Court of the USA. The ACLU, the usual suspect, may indeed take it to the USSC after it has been shot down by lower courts.

Then, Dyslexia, and only then, will there be a definitive judgment on the matter.

But, as I said previously, until then, posts like the ones made by Ticomaya and Timberlandko, reports by people like Drudge, stories on the cable channels and news articles will be fodder for the voters.

The mind of the voters on this matter will be reflected in the feedback from the polls.
We shall see.
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