0
   

Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 11:55 am
If the President continues the line of communication he demonstrated this morning, you'll see those numbers changing in favor the president if those numbers are in fact even correct, which I doubt. Saying one 'hopes to reduce troop levels' and setting an artificial deadlne for doing so are two entirely different things.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 12:10 pm
Thomas wrote:
Since you were trying to persuade me with a source from my side, what do you (and georgeob1, and Tico, and ...) make of Scowcroft's perspective on Iraq? I know that George, in particular, holds Scowcroft in high esteem. Does his turn against the Bush administration (published online here) affect your judgment of the war in any way?


I have to dash out and do my part in pumping up the GDP (otherwise known as Christmas shopping), but wanted to thank you for the New Yorker article. I remember the flap when Scowcroft made his "comments" (last Spring?) and I remember my reaction.

Briefly, I hold no animosity towards Scowcroft - he's 80, he's a self-described cynic and, perhaps most importantly, all he (along with some notable others) really wants is the status quo. If there's no change, things will stay in place. His, and all the other so-called "experts" expertise will be preserved.

So, no, his analysis doesn't affect my opinions except that I find his thoughtful comments interesting....but tedious and leaves me wondering what he'd say about this quote from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism:

"...The average intellectual of the Left believed, for instance, that the war was lost in 1940, that the Germans were bound to overrun Egypt in 1942, that the Japanese would never be driven out of the lands that they had conquered, and that the Anglo-American bombing was making no impression on Germany. He could believe these things because his hatred of the British ruling class forbade him to admit that British plans could succeed. There is no limit to the follies that can be swallowed if one is under the influence of feelings of this kind. I have heard it confidently stated, for instance, that the American troops had been brought to Europe not to fight the Germans but to crush an English revolution. One has to belong to the intelligensia to believe things like that: no ordinary man could be such a fool."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 12:12 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
if those numbers are in fact even correct, which I doubt.


Why, dear Foxfyre, should I have doctored them? They're to found in various media.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 12:12 pm
Quote:
November 21, 2005 Issue
Copyright © 2005 The American Conservative
The Weekly Standard's War


Take a look HERE george.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 12:15 pm
Scowcroft believes, "It's easy in the name of stability to be comfortable with the status quo." He believed Saddam had stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, but he was so comfortable with the status quo -- even in light of the events of 9/11 -- that he was willing to take the risk of allowing Saddam to remain. I do not agree with that perspective.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 12:17 pm
When was the last time Bush gave a speech to a non-military audience, anyone know? Just curious.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 12:22 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
"These decisions about troop levels will be driven by the conditions on the ground in Iraq and the good judgement of our commanders, not by artificial timetables set by politicians in Washington," Bush said.

However, on Tuesday Bush said he hoped to reduce the number of American troops in Iraq next year.


Obviously the conditions on the ground must warrant a reduction in the number of American troops.

Quote:
According to an Associated Press poll, 62% in the US now disapprove of Mr Bush's Iraq policy. His overall approval rating is at 37%, the lowest of his presidency.


Thanks.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 12:23 pm
President Bush will follow his line of communication today that differs none from what he's already said in the past. He will try to keep it simple, and repeat them in a way that will sound more immanent. The message stays the same; no timetable for withdrawal.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 12:24 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
When was the last time Bush gave a speech to a non-military audience, anyone know? Just curious.


Probably when he last spoke to a bunch of Republicans. Why do you ask?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 12:27 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Just curious.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 12:27 pm
FreeDuck, He can't afford to speak to the general public during a t.v. op speech without controlling the crowd of who is admitted. This control of crowds looks worse for Bush when he's talking about "democracy" in Iraq. Another boondoggle of Bushco.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 01:29 pm
I think we ought to acknowledge that the entire subject/debate on Iraq has just turned a corner.

The frame of reference now is getting out.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 02:50 pm
We were always going to get out--when the Iraqis were capable of taking over the security.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it you and your ilksters who said we'd NEVER leave?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 03:11 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Both Powell and Scowcroft were of the Washington breed of military officers - far more time in the Pentagon and various Washington Aassignments than in operational units of the Army and Air Force (respectively). While they were certainly skilled in the ways of our government and as well of many aspects of national strategy, they were not particularly skilled military leaders - nor were they considered as such within our military.

That doesn't refute my point about the negative correlation between hawkishness and military competence though. When you look at Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Cheney, was their stature as military leaders considered more impressive by the officer community than were Powell's and Clark's? Or, to check the correlation from the other side, what if you look at those generals who were respected as particularly skilled military leaders? (I am too unfamiliar with the American military to know who they would be.) In their pre-war public statements about the invasion, were they more dovish or more hawkish than Wolfowitz, Cheney, and Rumsfeld? I'm not trying to set you up, I'm genuinely curious about this.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 04:08 pm
Lash wrote:
We were always going to get out--when the Iraqis were capable of taking over the security.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it you and your ilksters who said we'd NEVER leave?


Actually, what I said eleven months ago can be found HERE.

There are different levels of 'reality' at play here. There is what the administration wishes people to believe and what they might actually intend. To assume those are identical is naive.

Does anyone here believe that the US will allow the oil reserves to fall into the hands of Iran, or even an independent Iraqi government which could fall under the sway of Iran? Clearly not, which entails an on-going military presence regardless of all else.

Is there a serious analyst who doesn't consider that stability in Iraq, if it happens, won't take years? That means on-going involvement.

But Iraq has become a huge drain on the purse, and it is apparently wrecking the volunteer military, and it is the major threat to the continued political dominance of Republicans. Those factors will change US policy regardless.

Whether Hersh has it right (major shift over to air strikes rather than feet on ground) or whether some other means will be found to reduce American casualties - if American soldiers are there they will be targets - that's what is going to be the near future.

That's what I mean when I say that getting out of Iraq is now the new framework.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 10:45 pm
Dufus-goofus Moveon.org have pulled their anti-war ad, per CNN.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 10:56 pm
Thomas wrote:
[That doesn't refute my point about the negative correlation between hawkishness and military competence though. When you look at Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Cheney, was their stature as military leaders considered more impressive by the officer community than were Powell's and Clark's? Or, to check the correlation from the other side, what if you look at those generals who were respected as military leaders? (I am too unfamiliar with the American military to know who they would be.) In their pre-war public statements about more dovish or more hawkish than Wolfowitz's, Cheney's, and Rumsfeld's? I'm not trying to set you up, I'm genuinely curious about this.


I agree, I didn't evern fully address your point, much less refute it. I'm not so sure the question here is one of strictly military competence, as opposed to national strategy, an understanding of history & how things might turn out. Certainly both Cheney and Rumsfeld have ample experience and proficiency at high levels of the govrernment. Both were White House Aides during the Nixon/Ford Administration and both were successful Secretaries of Defense before the present Administration came to power. By any standard Rumsfield is currently doing well at DoD - he runs the place (no small achievement) and has instituted a long overdue rebaselining of Dfense organization, weapons programs, training, and doctrine. There was some uniformed opposition - as there always is - but the reforms were both needed and well-conceived.

Wolfowitz served as U.S. Ambassador to Indonesia in the early '80s, starting out soon after the Suharto government wiped out the remnants of the Indonesian Communist Party and the relics of the Sukarno years as well. I spent a few days at sea with him and the service chiefs of the Indonesian military (a most interesting group, led by General Bennie Moerdani - an unforgettable figure who reputedly led the coup that brought Suharto to power. Wolfowitz was an engaging presence and sometimes cpompanion, very thoughtful, reflective and analytic. The Indonesian experience clearly engaged him deeply. I believe he went back to the University of Chicago after that.

All of these guys are very serious, thoughtful and competent people. Perhaps the question is - are they also wise? I believe they are.

As far as military strategy goes, I believe the ovewrthrow of Saddam was executed extremely well and with admirable economy of force. What we are dealing with now is the suppression of a well-established insurgency. The gold standard for such things is the successful British suppression of the insurgency in Malaysia during the 1950's. They took ten years. I believe we will do better. Unfortunately when one is the presumed "sole superpower" one gets a lot of attention and criticism from mostly irresponsible and self-serving sources. That, plus the very combative political environment in this country makes for a lot of trouble that, for example, the British didn't have during the 1950s. Despite all this the world remains a troubled place, and protecting it from disaffected internal proletariats and external barbarians (to udse Toynbee's phrase) remains a necessary but difficult chore. (Even Marcus Aurelius spend a major part of his time seeing to this.)
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 10:57 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
If the President continues the line of communication he demonstrated this morning, you'll see those numbers changing in favor the president if those numbers are in fact even correct, which I doubt. Saying one 'hopes to reduce troop levels' and setting an artificial deadlne for doing so are two entirely different things.


Foxy - take a look at this:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/blog/2005/11/cbs_news_poll.html

:wink:
0 Replies
 
quex144
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 11:07 pm
Quote:
Whether Hersh has it right (major shift over to air strikes rather than feet on ground) or whether some other means will be found to reduce American casualties - if American soldiers are there they will be targets - that's what is going to be the near future.


The transition from infantry numbers to air squadrons is understandable within the walkways of Capitol Hill, though undeniably foolish for the military standards of the day; the military general, if not at gun-point, would attest to this. One example is the Vietcong and their extensive tunnel systems, which, in a word, were brought on by the decrease in infantry lines and the increase in air bombings from '63 to '66.

The problem is this: through a decrease in infantry and an increase in air bombings comes an increase in (concealed) infantry and mobilization by the enemy on familiar ground; what is more, tunnels, communications, and weapons caches are re-established and re-stocked. Bombings can be timed with a pendulum, and forward observers along with intelligence officers devoid of infantry find themselves with little or no support in ambushes and sharpshooter fire lines. The fighting, therefore, under such a transition, turns to a fatal circle.
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 12:01 am
It has been my experience, Just Wonders, that Ratings change slowly. The news has to trickle down. Most people are not political junkies.

The ratings after the impending election in Iraq, the actual drawdown of some troops, the continuing lowering of gas prices, the appointment of Alito and the ongoing improvement in the Economy will all be felt by the mass of Americans by the end of January. That will be the time to look at the ratings.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 07/17/2025 at 01:40:15