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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:07 am
Tico - I bolded that particular bit of irony because of all the Jihadists at the NYTimes, Krugman was the worst and the most consistent in below-the-belt tactics and outright lies. Dowd, on the other hand, was merely nauseating, grating and annoying LOL.

Smile
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:10 am
timber

Yes. One of many examples. A personal favorite was his description of a political opponenent as "a sheep in sheep's clothing". A fine mind.

I'm always a little dismayed when modern speeches are described or reviewed as if the thing had actually been written by the man who memorizes it for a TV performance.

We'll recall the commencement speech Bush gave at Ohio, where an aide claimed that Bush was drawing on the thoughts of Cicero, Emily Dickenson, Pope John Paul II, and Aristotle, among others (Einstein? Derrida? Savonarola?).

The gags from Reagan lauded above are a tad meagre.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 08:35 am
JustWonders wrote:
Tico - I bolded that particular bit of irony because of all the Jihadists at the NYTimes, Krugman was the worst and the most consistent in below-the-belt tactics and outright lies. Dowd, on the other hand, was merely nauseating, grating and annoying LOL.

Smile


Nothing personal, but that's the least thoughtful bit of sycophancy I've read in the last twenty minutes.

Dowd is surely up for a particular criticism on presentation. That is, her style is off the cuff and without the sort of documentary support for claims and arguments that a first year paper would have to show. Other columnists do a far better job, in that respect, than Dowd. But of course a column doesn't have to match these criteria of scholarly discipline, and few do. Dowd, aside from political affiliations, is an extremely fine, imaginative, and original writer and she's been appropriately lauded and awarded for her unusual skills. Yet, her afilliations are not anything like absolute and if the lady whose post I'm addressing bothered reading Dowd much, she'd find columns where Dowd had layed into the Clintons with a gusto that can sit you back in your chair. One of my favorite right-side columnists, David Brooks, speaks well of Dowd, and if you read these two regularly, it will become apparent that Brooks models some of his humor and metaphorical tricks on Dowd's style. You can also see the influence of Bill Buckley, an early tutor, in Brooks' writing.

Krugman, on the other hand, is a scholar, and he carries that discipline into his columns (though obviously not with the rigor a book or economics paper would entail). Krugman is not particularly liberal, certainly not matching people's notions of an economic liberal where he's much closer to traditional Republican policies. He's gained the vituperation of many on the right, such as the poster above, simply because he's written consistently against the Bush administration. But his complaints arise from his unusual (for a columnist) expertise and knowledge, and he backs up what he claims with the appropriate evidentiary criteria. JW claims that Krugman lies. How does one respond to a claim so partisanly stupid.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 09:18 am
Krugman is a scholar. So what? Arafat was given a "peace" prize and it still doesn't make him any less of what he really is -- a murdering thug.

If I'm "partisanly stupid" by your standards, I'm in good company.

Here's a bit from one of my favorites. I'd say he's a real "hottie", except I've never really seen him...but I certainly like the way he thinks Smile

Quote:
I'm teaching International Finance & Balance of Payments for the first time this semester, and I decided to use Krugman's text International Economics just to see what it was like, whether there was anything there of the old Paul Krugman, economics writer, I used to like so much, etc. etc. etc.

The semester is now a little over half completed and despite continual efforts to like the book I find in it the same shortcomings as can be found in Krugman's columns. The textbook evidences Krugman's chatty, shifty-eyed tendency to pull the rug out from under the reader (usually at the really difficult junctures) with news that what's being explained is really far too over simplified, or (at its worst) really wrong but good enough for now -- because, presumably, the reader is just too dumb to understand the correct theory.

[...]

The organization is more or less traditional, but there's a kind of overriding blur to the whole thing: my students' most common complaint is the text neither promises nor delivers any payoff. Exactly why any of the text's technical material is actually interesting to anyone is never trotted out. In short: this is a textbook written by an intellectual bully who is really quite unsure of himself.


Source
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 09:27 am
Look, if you want to at least give the pretence of objectivity and independent-minded study on the fellow and the issues he raises, go the the Unofficial Paul Krugman website. There's far better criticism of his ideas to be found there. And then what you'll want to do is read only the negative-sounding pieces, because that's what you will do.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:04 am
Hmph. Krugman. Feh.

As an economist, he at least has had his moments. As a paragon of sociopolitical analysis, however, he ranks right along with Andy Rooney, IMO; occasionally amusing, but generally more than just a bit odd. If you go for that genre, I think Garrison Keillor a better choice.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:13 am
The op-ed reporters at the NYTimes are given free reign. That's not my imagination, it's the Times' policy. Keep that in mind when you realize that Krugman was corrected more than 20 times in the months leading up to this year's election -- by his own paper.

It's no surprise to me that you are impressed with this "shifty-eyed" man (I thought it was a "tic" LOL). His blatant lies and anti-Bush sentiment do not make him competitive in a world where most of us prefer the truth.

Both he and his lies are now irrelevant and that makes me happy Smile
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:47 am
JustWonders wrote:
The op-ed reporters at the NYTimes are given free reign. That's not my imagination, it's the Times' policy. Keep that in mind when you realize that Krugman was corrected more than 20 times in the months leading up to this year's election -- by his own paper.


And there were countless times he should've been corrected, but his Times editor didn't.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:06 am
JustWonders wrote:
It's no surprise to me that you are impressed with this "shifty-eyed" man (I thought it was a "tic" LOL).

You got a problem with shifty eyes? Or, for that matter, care to elaborate on the 20 times he's been wrong and corrected by his own newspaper? Links to, and quotes from the mistaken articles appreciated. Links to, and quotes from the NYT corrections appreciated too. Links to a blogger's account of a blogger's account of a talk radio host's account -- not appreciated.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:10 am
I have a problem with shifty eyes. I take it you've never bought a car.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:32 pm
NY Times' policy appears to allow the columnists to correct themselves. Laughing

Quote:
The Privileges of Opinion, the Obligations of Fact
By DANIEL OKRENT

Published: March 28, 2004

IT sounds like a simple question: Should opinion columnists be subject to the same corrections policy that governs the work of every other writer at The Times? So simple, in fact, that you must know that only an ornate answer could follow.

For the news pages, the rule is succinct. "Because its voice is loud and far-reaching," the paper's stylebook says, "The Times recognizes an ethical responsibility to correct all its factual errors, large and small (even misspellings of names), promptly and in a prominent reserved space in the paper." But on the page where The Times's seven Op-Ed columnists roam, there has long been no rule at all, or at least not one clearly elucidated and publicly promulgated. When I began in this job last fall, I was told The Times considered the space granted Op-Ed columnists theirs to use as they wish, subject only to the limits of legality, decency and publisher Arthur O. Sulzberger Jr.'s patience. Columnists decided when to run corrections, and where in their columns to run them.

But several days ago, editorial page editor Gail Collins handed me a memo in response to my inquiries. (You can read it in its entirety at www.nytimes.com/danielokrent; look for posting No. 22.) Less a formal statute than an explanation and justification of practice, the document lays out the position of both Collins and her boss, Sulzberger, who bears ultimate responsibility for hiring and firing columnists. Collins explains why columnists must be allowed the freedom of their opinions, but insists that they "are obviously required to be factually accurate. If one of them makes an error, he or she is expected to promptly correct it in the column." Corrections, under this new rule, are to be placed at the end of a subsequent column, "to maximize the chance that they will be seen by all their readers, everywhere," a reference to the wide syndication many of the columnists enjoy.

But who is to say what is factually accurate? Or whether a quotation is misrepresented? Or whether facts are used or misused in such a fashion as to render a columnist's opinion unfair? Or even whether fairness has anything to do with opinion in the first place? Can you imagine one of the Sunday morning television screamfests instituting a corrections policy?

In the consciously cynical words of a retired Times editor, speaking for all the hard-news types who find most commentary to be frippery, "How can you expect fairness from columnists when they make up all that stuff anyway?"

Of course they don't make the stuff up (at least the good ones don't). But many do use their material in ways that veer sharply from conventional journalistic practice. The opinion writer chooses which facts to present, and which to withhold. He can paint individuals he likes as paragons, and those he disdains as scoundrels. The more scurrilous practitioners rely on indirection and innuendo, nestling together in a bed of lush sophistry. I sometimes think opinion columns ought to carry a warning: "The following is solely the opinion of the author, supported by data I alone have chosen to include. Live with it." Opinion is inherently unfair.

Columnists also attract a crowd radically unlike the audience that sticks to the news pages. Judging by my mail, the more partisan of The Times's columnists draw two distinct sets of fanatical loyalists: those who wish to have their own views reinforced, and those who enjoy the hot thrill of a blood-pressure spike. Paul Krugman, writes Nadia Koutzen of Toms River, N.J., "makes more sense (along with Bob Herbert) than anyone. He states irrefutable facts." Paul Krugman, writes Donald Luskin of Palo Alto, Calif., has committed "dozens of substantive factual errors, distortions, misquotations and false quotations - all pronounced in a voice of authoritativeness that most columnists would not presume to permit themselves."

For a wider audience, Luskin serves as Javert to Krugman's Jean Valjean. From a perch on National Review Online, he regularly assaults Krugman's logic, his politics, his economic theories, his character and his accuracy. (If you want to see what kind of a rumble can evolve from a columnist's use of a quotation, go to posting No. 23 of my Web journal to find a series of links relating to a recent charge against Krugman: can you figure out who's right?) Similarly, David Corn of The Nation has taken aim at William Safire, charging in one recent piece that "under the cover of opinion journalism," Safire is "dishing out disinformation." And Maureen Dowd is followed faithfully around the Web by an avenging army of passionate detractors who would probably be devastated if she ever stopped writing.

Anyone who calls the Internet's bustling trade in columnist-attack a cottage industry might more accurately liken it to the arms bazaar in Peshawar. Peace and calm were not enhanced a few weeks ago when Times lawyers took a legal sledgehammer to an imaginary Op-Ed corrections column published by Robert Cox of the Web site The National Debate - but peace and calm rarely accompany arguments about political opinion in a polarized age.

This sort of contentiousness makes a clear, publicly stated corrections policy necessary, and finding a bright line in such murky precincts isn't easy. At the very minimum, anything that is indisputably inaccurate must be corrected: there is no protected opinion that holds that the sun rises in the west. Same with the patent misuse or distortion of quotations that are already in the public record. But if Safire asserts that there is a "smoking gun" linking Al Qaeda to Saddam Hussein, then even David Corn's best shots (which include many citations from Times news stories) aren't going to prove it isn't so. "An opinion may be wrongheaded," Safire told me by e-mail last week, "but it is never wrong. A belief or a conviction, no matter how illogical, crackbrained or infuriating, is an idea subject to vigorous dispute but is not an assertion subject to editorial or legal correction."

Safire good-humoredly (I think) asked me to whom he could complain if I quoted him out of context. I had a ready answer: "No one - I'm a columnist."

I generally don't like to engage in comparative newspapering, but I thought it was worth knowing what other papers do with (or to) their columnists. At The Boston Globe (owned by The New York Times Company), editorial page editor Renee Loth's practice is almost identical to the one now in place here; so is the policy of Paul Gigot, who presides over the opinion pages at The Wall Street Journal (definitely not owned by The Times). The Los Angeles Times actually allows its readers' representative to participate in decisions on columnist corrections. (No thanks, I'd rather not.) At The Washington Post, if a columnist doesn't want to write a correction recommended by editorial page editor Fred Hiatt, Hiatt will put one on the op-ed page himself. At every one of these papers, the final arbiter is the editorial page editor.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who would have made an excellent editorial page editor if he could have put up with the meetings, once said that "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." Gail Collins's determination that corrections will appear on their own at the end of a succeeding column, and not disappear into an unrelated digression, is on its own a significant piece of progress. But it's her assertion of responsibility that matters most. Critics might say her statement of policy is very gently phrased, but when I asked her if there was wiggle room, she was unequivocal: "It is my obligation to make sure no misstatements of fact on the editorial pages go uncorrected."

In the coming months I expect columnist corrections to become a little more frequent and a lot more forthright than they've been in the past. Yet the final measure of Collins's success, and of the individual columnists, will be not in the corrections but in the absence of the need for them. Wayne Wren of Houston, a self-described conservative and "avid reader" of National Review Online, expressed it with great equanimity in a recent e-mail message to my office: "If Mr. Krugman is making egregious errors in his Op-Ed column, they will catch up with him." Same goes for Brooks, Dowd, Friedman, Herbert, Kristof and Safire - and, most important, for The New York Times.


Link.

Quote:
dokrent - 10:29 PM ET March 27, 2004 (#22 of 34)

(Note: In my March 28 column, "The Privileges of Opinion, the Obligations of Fact," I refer to two posts, No. 22, a memo on the columnists from editorial page editor, Gail Collins and No. 23, a series of links relating to a recent charge against Paul Krugman. Both posts are below.)

Memo on the Columnists From Gail Collins, editorial page editor:

The Op-Ed columnists occupy a unique place at The Times. They are full-time employees of the paper, but they speak only for themselves. Their opinions are theirs and theirs alone. They control, as is often noted, some of the most valuable journalistic real estate in the nation and their twice-a-week 700-odd word essays are among the best-read features in the paper.

It's not possible to be an independent voice and also be edited for content, so the columnists are permitted to operate without the kind of direct supervision that the paper's other writers receive. They are hired by the publisher and serve at his pleasure. They file their columns to an editorial department copy editor, who checks for spelling, grammatical errors and adherence to the paper's style. If a column appears to be potentially libelous or in bad taste, the copy editor alerts me. I have the power to pull the column entirely, but that has never, to my knowledge, happened under me or any of my predecessors. The columnists are invariably responsive and cooperative if I call to voice a concern.

While the columnists have extraordinary freedom they are not, by any means at liberty to do anything they like. They are all bound by Times ethics policy which requires them to give up any outside activities that might constitute a conflict of interest. That ranges from consulting work to giving speeches to providing blurbs for friends' books.

And while their opinions are their own, the columnists are obviously required to be factually accurate. If one of them makes an error, he or she is expected to promptly correct it in the column. After some experimentation at different ways of making corrections, we now encourage a uniform approach, with the correction made at the bottom of the piece.

The question of why columnists are permitted to do their own correcting comes up frequently. There are several reasons, some of them practical. The columnists are widely syndicated and it is important that their corrections run within the columns to maximize the chance that they will be seen by all their readers, everywhere. Readers also tend to communicate directly with the columnists rather than through the editorial page editors, and the columnists are often aware of errors that the editors never hear about until they read the correction in the paper.

After having had some experience with the columnist-correction issue from both sides of the fence, I think it's a good policy for other reasons as well. Being a columnist is like walking a tightrope without a net and the very lack of supervision creates an enormous sense of responsibility. You feel very keenly that you and you alone are answerable for every word. That's the way it should be, and I think the corrections policy reinforces that. Also, the relationship between columnists and their readers is extremely personal, and I think readers rightly expect corrections to be delivered in the columnist's own voice.

None of this is meant to suggest that columnist can pick or choose which errors to correct. They are expected to correct every error. Anyone who refused to fulfill this critical obligation would not be a columnist for The New York Times very long. And none of this is meant to suggest that the editorial page editor can use the policy to duck responsibility for inaccuracies on the page. Whenever an error is brought to the attention of one of the Times editors, it goes to me, and through me to the columnist in question. These are some of the top writers in American journalism. They take their reputation for accuracy very, very seriously.


Link.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:56 pm
That funny fella from up north wrote:
A personal favorite was his description of a political opponenent as "a sheep in sheep's clothing". A fine mind.
Laughing Laughing Laughing Love it! (Dowd is an ass, btw :wink:)
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:57 pm
A Lone Voice wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
yep. he did come up with some good ones.

some of the things he did tweaked me out. but all in all, he did pretty good.

feel the same way about clinton.

try not to throw anything too sharp or solid... i worked late last night and the reflexes aren't cooking yet... :wink:


Hey, where ya been? I was looking forward to your take on the election.... Smile Although, I might have missed one of your posts somewhere else?


hey alv, ya awright? took some time away from a2k for a few days before and after the election. put so much thought and energy into the last 2 years that i needed a break. politics. ppheeewwwww!!! :wink:

ahhh, the election. well, obviously kerry lost out. although i'd hoped otherwise, i'm not too surprised.
i guess i have to put the blame with him. my initial reason for backing kerry was, as i told the wife, "we need an ass kicker this time. a whimpy democrat isn't gonna make it".

so, i was pretty mortified when the ass kicker went wimp. he just let too much get past him with no response and allowed rove and o'neill to out maneuver him. he let the vietnam stuff get out of control, then added to it with that stupid salute thing. then he failed to discuss his senate record. i spent a shipload of time looking it over on thomas.com ( a great resource !) and a lot of what was said by the reps was true, but not true.

it's only half of the story to say something like " he voted to cut intelligence by 6.5 billion". he did vote for the cut, +/- 350million a year over 5 years. it went down. but congress passed a similar republican bill that cut intelligence at about 2/3 of the 6.5 billion. the reason for the cuts? waste spending and over budgeting for specific areas of intelligence.

why the hell he didn't explain that i cannot fathom. same goes for the "i actually voted for the 87b before i voted against it". if viewed as a one time vote, you have to think "whattttt????". but when it's explained that the bill went through changes, one being whether or not the 18-20 billion for rebuilding iraq would be a repayable loan or a non-repayable gift, it's easy to see logic in his statement. but, did he educate americans on this difference? nope, not a word.

campaign staff initially didn't to too good, enter the clinton guys and things picked up, but too late.then bill had the quadruple bypass. no stumping.

ahhhh, there's more, but it makes me depressed...

ultimately, kerry just didn't get it done. he's making noises about running again, but i don't think i can back him again.

and although i think, perhaps, that hillary might do a good job, i don't think she can get elected.

in any case the 2006 and 2008 elections should be mighty interesting, don't ya think?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 04:07 pm
From the pieces just quoted by Tico
Quote:
Anyone who calls the Internet's bustling trade in columnist-attack a cottage industry might more accurately liken it to the arms bazaar in Peshawar


STILL LMAO! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

And I haven't even begun to wipe the coffee spray off my keyboard, dektop, and monitor Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 07:11 pm
Whither John Kerry?
By Howard KurtzWashington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 12, 2004; 10:41 AM

It's no secret that the Democratic Party isn't terribly charitable toward its losers.

One minute, the entire party apparatus is mobilized to cheer on a potential president of the United States. The next moment, the reception is more like . . . uh, what was your name again?

When George McGovern went down in 1972, he remained a senator for eight more years but his party never forgave him for losing 49 states. When Jimmy Carter lost the presidency in 1980, he was widely shunned and had to rehabilitate himself through the labors of an ex-president who eventually won the Nobel Peace Prize.

Walter Mondale in '84? Dems didn't want to be reminded of a guy who stood up at a convention and promised to raise taxes. Michael Dukakis in '88? The man's face was practically on a milk carton after that. (You didn't see him holding forth at July's convention in Boston, did you?)

And Al Gore was the target of considerable resentment that he blew a race that was widely viewed as winnable--so much so that it would have been very difficult for him to run this year.

All of which brings us to the question--what happens to Kerry now?
Does he become the party's leading spokesman in the Senate, overshadowing little-known minority leader Harry Reid? Does he start some sort of America's Future group and raise truckloads of cash from his donor lists and play the role of power broker? Does he use the fact that he got 56 million votes to lead the opposition to Bush while the '08 picture sorts itself out?

Well, maybe. But Kerry is also going to be a reminder of the huge Democratic disappointment of 2004, the failure to retire a president with a vulnerable record. More pundits are coming out and saying Kerry ran a lame campaign. Unlike the Red Sox, he will have to live with that 'L' tag forever.

The New Republic wants him off the stage:

"He's back. Actually, he never even left. John Kerry, according to reports in The Boston Globe and The Washington Post, plans to have a prominent role in the Democratic Party. Apparently he's contemplating a political action committee and think-tank to help define the party's future. And, according to those around him, he's also considering another presidential run in 2008.

"Our reaction to this is . . . how to put it? Well, here goes: No. Please. Stop.

"If the election results somehow failed to make this clear, we'd like to remind Senator Kerry that he is not an effective communicator. He tends to blather on, circling round and round his point without coming close to it. He regularly utters phrases --'global test,' 'I actually voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it'--that play directly into his opponents' hands. And he projects the image of an out-of-touch patrician that is precisely the opposite of what the Democratic Party needs.

"Kerry's inner circle has come away from the election apparently convinced that he represents the aspirations of nearly half the country...
"It is certainly true that the election saw an enormous outpouring of activism on Kerry's behalf. That activism, though, was motivated by opposition to Bush rather than by support for Kerry. He was merely a vessel for righteous outrage over a failed and dangerous presidency. And not a very potent vessel, either. . . .

"If the Democratic Party is going to get off its back, it needs spokesmen who can clearly explain its positions without leaving even its own partisans bored or confused. It needs someone who can connect with the economic and moral values of the middle class. And it needs to be able to discuss foreign policy without invoking the word 'alliances' like some kind of irrepressible verbal tic. The longer Kerry overstays his welcome, the harder it will be for such spokesmen to emerge.

"Kerry certainly does deserve to retain a role within the party. That role ought to be the same as it was before he ran for president: second-most influential senator from Massachusetts."

Ouch. And this from a magazine that endorsed him.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 07:30 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Ouch. And this from a magazine that endorsed him.

LOL. Well, one's got to remember that they did endorse him against Bush in the final race, obviously (what else were they gonna do) - but that during the primaries, the magazine actually endorsed Lieberman - obviously, more as an act of protest than in any serious reflection of the guy's actual chances.

Furthermore, at the time the editors were quite dearly divided over that endorsement, with one editor each pleading instead for, respectively, Dean, Gephardt, Edwards and Clark. Yes, you noticed right which one serious candidate thus remained unmentioned by anyone at all.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 09:45 pm
Nimh - wow, you never cease to amaze me with how much you read and retain of our politics over here. That last line was part of the article, but your comments in the second paragraph made me laugh Smile

I'd been thinking about him (Kerry), wondering what he was up to, actually, when I ran across this article and thought I'd share. Thing is, I really don't hate him and never did. I'm hoping much was learned on both sides from this experience...was certainly eventful and exciting at times, huh?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:13 pm
Apropros of nothing currently at discussion here ... but its interesting to note that Bush The Greater's average lead in in the 31 states he won was 17%, with a lead of less than 5% notched in only 4 states, while leads of greater than 10% were scored in 16.

The Most Recent Presidential Race Footnote averaged a 9% lead in the 19 states he took, a 13% lead if you include DC's 90% margin. 11 of those 21 wins were of 10% or less, 8 being single-digit, with 5 of those 3% or less.

From that perspective it would seem reasonable to extrapolate that The Democratic Party, or at least its latest loser, had rather less support than reflected by their Electoral College loss of "only" 34.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:22 pm
don't you just love statistics, I really like the one about 99.7% of all convicted rapists drank milk as some point in their lives.
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:28 pm
dyslexia wrote:
don't you just love statistics, I really like the one about 99.7% of all convicted rapists drank milk as some point in their lives.


I loved Cravens




"99 % of all statistics are made up on the spot. ...

... This is the case here."
0 Replies
 
 

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