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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 11:35 am
Thomas wrote:
Needless to say, that is only my opinion.


Shared by many. Thank you, Thomas for your consideration.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 11:54 am
They neither deserve, nor will they recieve, courtesy on this point under any circumstances again. I will consider any requests in that vein by them as a personal invitation from now on.

They have obliterated personal courtesies.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 11:55 am
Who are they and them?
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 11:58 am
If you don't know, telling you won't improve your situation.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 11:58 am
<snort>

It must be a secret list.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 12:05 pm
Lash wrote:
If you don't know, telling you won't improve your situation.


Well, so keep that by yourself.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 12:05 pm
Lash wrote:
They neither deserve, nor will they recieve, courtesy on this point under any circumstances again. I will consider any requests in that vein by them as a personal invitation from now on.

They have obliterated personal courtesies.


I nearly choked, when I read Lash writing about extending personal courtesies.

What's it to be, Lash, No More Ms Nice Person? Very Happy
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 12:09 pm
Sounds like some of the Bush supporters are a bit testy lately. I can understand why...
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 12:24 pm
Lash wrote:
They have obliterated personal courtesies.

McTag wrote:
What's it to be, Lash, No More Ms Nice Person? Very Happy

D'Artagnan wrote:
Sounds like some of the Bush supporters are a bit testy lately. I can understand why...

Rolling Eyes

I hereby mention the Nazis and declare myself the loser of this thread. Now, can we move on? Please?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 12:25 pm
Well you can't say that Thomas didn't try. Were his observation shared by others, there could be a return to a sharing of ideas and concepts through which both sides, though unlikely to be 'converted', could come to at least understand and maybe even appreciate the point of view of the other. I appreciated it.

Here is another observation by a bonafied, card carrying, star studded liberal who has been consistently critical of the Bush administration. But he is able to be honest and fair, and he routinely earns my respect and yes, appreciation.

Hindsight: A User's Guide

By Michael Kinsley

Sunday, September 11, 2005; Page B07

As a good American, you no doubt have been worried sick for years about the levees around New Orleans. Or you've been worried at least since you read that official report back in August 2001 -- the one that ranked a biblical flood of the Big Easy as one of our top three potential national emergencies. No? You didn't read that report back in 2001? You just read about it in the newspapers this past week?

Well, how about that prescient New Orleans Times-Picayune series back in 2002 that laid out the whole likely catastrophe? Everybody read that one. Or at least it sure seems that way now. I was not aware that the Times-Picayune had such a large readership in places like Washington, D.C., and California. And surely you have been badgering public officials at every level of government to spend whatever it takes to reinforce those levees -- and to raise your taxes if necessary to pay for it.

No? You never gave five seconds of thought to the risk of flood in New Orleans until it became impossible to think about anything else? Me neither. Nor have I given much thought to the risk of a big earthquake along the West Coast -- the only one of the top three catastrophes that hasn't happened yet -- even though I live and work in the earthquake zone.

Of course, my job isn't to predict and prepare for disasters. My job is to recriminate when they occur. It's not easy. These days the recrimination business is overrun like Baton Rouge with amateurs, who are squatting on all the high ground. The fetid aroma of hindsight is everywhere.

Sen. Mary Landrieu and other Louisiana politicians have been flashing their foresight all over the tube. They say they asked repeatedly for more money so that the Army Corps of Engineers could strengthen the levees, but repeatedly the Bush administration actually cut the Corps budget instead. The Corps itself is feeling pretty smug. It has long wanted money to build levees that would survive even a Category 5 hurricane, let alone a measly Category 4 such as Katrina.

Sure, and if there were a Category 6 or a Category 473, there would be a dusty Corps of Engineers report in a filing cabinet somewhere asking for money to protect against that one, too. The Corps has done many marvelous things. But it would cement over the Great Lakes or level Mount Rainier if we would let it.

Its warnings about natural disasters are like the warnings of that famous economist who has predicted 10 of the past five recessions.

Likewise, a senator may not be the best judge of the need for a vast federal construction project in her state. Landrieu's I-told-you-so's would be more impressive if the press release archive on her Web site didn't contain equally urgent calls to spend billions of dollars to build boats the Navy hasn't asked for in Louisiana shipyards, self-congratulations for having planted a billion dollars of "coastal impact assistance" for Louisiana in the energy bill (this is before the flood), and so on. Did she want flood control, or did she want $10 million to have "America's largest river swamp" declared a "National Heritage Area"?

Obviously -- obviously in hindsight, that is -- we should have spent the money to strengthen the New Orleans levees. President Bill Clinton should have done it. Presidents George Bush Senior and Ronald Reagan should have done it. As Tim Noah notes in Slate, warnings about the perilous New Orleans levees go back at least to Fanny Trollope in 1832. In fact, the one president who is pretty much in the clear on this is our current Bush -- not because he did anything about the levees but because even if he had started something, it probably wouldn't have been finished yet.

Everybody is having a fine fit about our politicians, our governments at every level, our "institutions" (current vogue word) for failing us in this crisis and others. The TV news networks, which only a few months ago were piously suppressing emotional fireworks by their pundits, are now piously encouraging their news anchors to break out of the emotional straitjackets and express outrage. A Los Angeles Times colleague of mine, appearing on CNN last week to talk about Katrina, was told by a producer to "get angry."

But just Google up a phrase like "commission warns," or "urgent steps," or "our children's future" -- or simply "crisis" -- and you may develop a bit of sympathy for the people who stand accused today of ignoring the warnings about anything in particular. Far from being complacent about potential perils, we suffer from peril gridlock.

Did all the attention and money devoted to protecting us from a terrorist attack after Sept. 11, 2001, leave us less prepared for a giant flood? Undoubtedly. And if the flood had come first, the opposite would be true. We, the citizens, would have demanded it and then blamed the politicians and the institutions when it turned out to be a bad bet. There is no foresight. We fight the last war because hindsight is all we have.

The writer is editorial and opinion editor of the Los Angeles Times.
SOURCE
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 12:34 pm
Foxfyre
Foxfyre, I hope you are sitting down and have 911 on your phone's speed dial to call the medics when you have a heart attack.

I also like Michael Kinsley. I read and respect his columns. And I agree with much of the column you posted.

However, Kinsley only addressed part of the problem. Perhaps he will follow up with a column about the internal problems of the Bush administration that made the situation so much worse.

There, you can catch your breath now.

BBB :wink:
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 12:37 pm
The "peril gridlock" was all created by this administration.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 12:48 pm
There are two issues here. One, that your article addresses, is whether to blame the government for the flooding itself. The other, is whether the response to the disaster was muddled due to buraucratic bloating of an agency that performs a vital government function.

There are very few who think that the current government could have prevented the flooding. Though it looks bad that the president cut the funding, it's clear that even if he hadn't, the upgrades would not have been completed in time and still might not have withstood the storm.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 01:03 pm
Even the 'funding cut' has been spun dishonestly by the Dems on Capital Hill and the media. Yes, the original requests were scaled back. But the fact is, the Corps of Engineers received more money for Louisiana levees than that budgeted by the Clinton administration in the same length of time.

I'm also beginning to hear some comparisons of response time of FEMA in this storm as compared to other storms, and FEMA actually did some better in this storm--I'm waiting for somehing to be printed on that. Unless somebody can conclusively show how Clinton's FEMA or Bush I's FEMA, or Reagan's FEMA or Carter's FEMA--there was no FEMA prior to that--would have outperformed Bush's FEMA in this disaster, I think FEMA may be getting an unfair rap this time.

Did they screw up here and there. Of course they did. It the bureaucracy a hindrance to efficiency? It would seem so. And it would be a worthwhile discussion on what changes should be made now that we have the 20-20 hindsight as Michael Kinsley pointed out.

It is not constructive nor conducive to productive debate to use this as just another excuse for Bush-bashing.
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dragon49
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 01:04 pm
i was surprised today to watch a cnn free video that blames the local government for the poor response. if you go to cnn.com, under the main picture there is a section called special coverage, which has a section called rescue and relief, who's to blame is the title (i couldn't figure out how to post the link here because it launches a video player).

i am uncertain where the blame lies. however, i found the video interesting. enjoy. i am awaiting ophelia at the moment living in good old va. beach...at least she will be at best a cat 1 when she clips us.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 01:05 pm
Naw, the major boner was Bush's appointment of a horse show guy to run an important government department that's responsible for emergency support.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 01:14 pm
C.I.
cicerone imposter wrote:
Naw, the major boner was Bush's appointment of a horse show guy to run an important government department that's responsible for emergency support.


Now wait a minute, C.I. Think about it.

I would want my escape horse nearby when the sh*t hit the fan and I needed a fast Arabian steed to outrun the flood.

BBB :wink:
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 01:16 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Though it looks bad that the president cut the funding,

On reflection, it actually doesn't look back to me anymore. Those levees ought to have been financed by the city of New Orleans, not the federal government. I agree about the disaster response team though.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 01:24 pm
Thomas wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Though it looks bad that the president cut the funding,

On reflection, it actually doesn't look back to me anymore. Those levees ought to have been financed by the city of New Orleans, not the federal government. I agree about the disaster response team though.


That's arguable, but since they were run by the Army Corps of Engineers, that makes it federal funding. We could argue whether the Army Corps of Engineers should exist or not -- I'm open on that one. Being from Florida, we didn't think that highly of them for draining the Everglades. But other than that, I'm not well informed on their projects.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 01:29 pm
Thomas wrote:
Those levees ought to have been financed by the city of New Orleans, not the federal government. I agree about the disaster response team though.


Drowning New Orleans - this article was written by Mark Fischetti and published in the (civil engeneering) magazine Scientific American in 2001: "
A major hurricane could swamp New Orleans under 20 feet of water, killing thousands. Human activities along the Mississippi River have dramatically increased the risk, and now only massive reengineering of southeastern Louisiana can save the city."
The above quote was the lead paragraph in this prescient report.

And the ending paragraph reads like this:
Quote:
Who Should Pay?
The corps of engineers is hiring more scientists for projects such as Davis Pond, a signal that the fragmented parties are beginning to work better together. Bahr would like to integrate science and engineering further by requiring independent scientific review of proposed Corps projects before the state signed on--which Louisiana would need to do because Congress would require the state to share the cost of such work.

If Congress and President George W. Bush hear a unified call for action, authorizing it would seem prudent. Restoring coastal Louisiana would protect the country's seafood and shipping industries and its oil and natural-gas supply. It would also save America's largest wetlands, a bold environmental stroke. And without action, the million people outside New Orleans would have to relocate. The other million inside the bowl would live at the bottom of a sinking crater, surrounded by ever higher walls, trapped in a terminally ill city dependent on nonstop pumping to keep it alive.

Funding the needed science and engineering would also unearth better ways to save the country's vanishing wetlands and the world's collapsing deltas. It would improve humankind's understanding of nature's long-term processes--and the stakes of interfering, even with good intentions. And it could help governments learn how to minimize damage from rising seas, as well as from violent weather, at a time when the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Adminis

source: Scientific American, October 2001 issue
Drowning New Orleans
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