InfraBlue
 
  5  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 02:25 pm
Question, how can Susan Rice have targeted Trump and his team in her revelation request if she didn't know the stricken names to begin with?
Blickers
 
  4  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 03:08 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote McGentrix:
Quote:
Yep, Keep that investigation going. Like I said, I am behind it 100%.

Won't be long until the NSA logs come out showing Rice probably never asked for a single unmasking until July 2016. Then, she went and looked for dirt on Trump and his campaign team. That got "leaked" out and all of it is VERY illegal.

Just wait, this may go all the way back to Obama.


Right, McG. Let's forget all about the fact that Trump has been tied in to Russian banks which are Russian intelligence fronts for years. Let's forget that his son-in-law Jared is meeting the same KGB operative and wouldn't say what the meeting was about. Let's ignore the fact that his former campaign manager worked for a Kremlin front in Ukraine and apparently got millions of dollars in under the table money there, as well as lobbying Congress for the Russians for more years. Let's forget that Trump's National Security Advisor had a Russian TV show and did personal appearances on behalf of Putin's government.

Let's forget all that-McGentrix thinks the REAL story here is who leaked the name of Trump's "National Security Advisor" who was caught having a secret conversation with the Russian Ambassador which the "advisor" denied. The fact that Trump is appointing Putin flunkies to positions of power and the Cabinet is not important at all.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 03:21 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Question, how can Susan Rice have targeted Trump and his team in her revelation request if she didn't know the stricken names to begin with?


Heh, the answer to that question has already been given--see above.

She DID know the identity of the stricken names. She didn't want the names unmasked in order to learn that.

She wanted the names unmasked so that the press, and everyone else she was illegally "disseminating" the information to, would know the names when the transcripts were given to them.

Anyone who can read can see that Rice was NOT authorized to "pass on" this information to ANYONE, even, for example, the FBI (assuming the info was orginally collected by NSA). If the FBI wanted the names, they would have to go directly to NSA and request the names. They couldn't get it from Rice--she didn't originate it, and wasn't allowed to tell anyone about it without a court order.
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 03:55 pm
@Blickers,
In addition all of that occurred at about the same time then president Obama took the unusual step of releasing selected NSA monitoring data, apparently including the materials in question, to all 17 intelligence agencies in the last months of his presidency.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 04:31 pm
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

Bloomberg
Quote:
The intelligence reports were summaries of monitored conversations -- primarily between foreign officials discussing the Trump transition, but also in some cases direct contact between members of the Trump team and monitored foreign officials. One U.S. official familiar with the reports said they contained valuable political information on the Trump transition such as whom the Trump team was meeting, the views of Trump associates on foreign policy matters and plans for the incoming administration.



You're so blinded by devout loyalty and fervent faith that you don't even know when the excerpts you choose are undermining your own position, eh?

"One U.S. official familiar with the reports said they contained valuable political information on the Trump transition such as whom the Trump team was meeting, the views of Trump associates on foreign policy matters and plans for the incoming administration.

And this has, what, exactly, to do with "foreign intelligence?" Do you think all this information came Trump discussing his plans with Putin, or some ****?

Section 1801 prohibits any disclosure, retention, etc. EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, TO ANYONE (with the exception of death threats), if the information "incidentally intercepted" via a FISA warrant is not relevant to "foreign intelligence." Under such circumstances, the information collected is to be destroyed (or the tapping discontinued) IMMEDIATELY.

I've seen reports, purportedly from people inside the intelliegence agencies, that say Obama was collecting information about the "daily lives" of his political adversaries. They compared it to the type of reports that a private investigator might give if he was hired to "tail" a spouse in a divorce case.
InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 04:46 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

Question, how can Susan Rice have targeted Trump and his team in her revelation request if she didn't know the stricken names to begin with?


Heh, the answer to that question has already been given--see above.

Have a link? I'd rather not slog though pages of back-and-forths.

layman wrote:
She DID know the identity of the stricken names. She didn't want the names unmasked in order to learn that.


If she did know the names then unmasking would not have been required.

You're confused as to the meaning of "unmasking." It isn't the divulgence of classified information. The word for that that's been bandied around is "leak."

How did she know the names to begin with, according to you?

layman wrote:
She wanted the names unmasked so that the press, and everyone else she was illegally "disseminating" the information to, would know the names when the transcripts were given to them.

This is sheer speculation.

layman wrote:
Anyone who can read can see that Rice was NOT authorized to "pass on" this information to ANYONE, even, for example, the FBI (assuming the info was orginally collected by NSA). If the FBI wanted the names, they would have to go directly to NSA and request the names. They couldn't get it from Rice--she didn't originate it, and wasn't allowed to tell anyone about it without a court order.

She was authorized to pass on this information to the National Security Council, which is explained by McGentrix's Wikipedia quote. That's a wide ranging field of governmental defense and security offices.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 04:56 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
She was authorized to pass on this information to the National Security Council, which is explained by McGentrix's Wikipedia quote. That's a wide ranging field of governmental defense and security offices.


Sorry, I missed the part where that article said she could pass on the identities of private U.S. citizens at will.

Once again, the originating entity can, and will if relevant and required, include the name in the original reports. If not, they must redact them.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 05:24 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
This is sheer speculation


Well, there's a little speculation involved, sure, but it aint really all that "sheer," ya know?
McGentrix
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 05:28 pm
Does anyone remember a time when the national news media were so in the pocket of a political party?

Susan Rice and the Media That Will Only Investigate Republicans
Quote:
For months, the media has demonstrated an insatiable – and understandable – appetite for the story of potential Russian interference in American politics during the 2016 election cycle. Demands for investigations into whether people in the Donald Trump campaign had contact or coordinated with Russian intel operatives have resulted in probes at the FBI as well as in both chambers of Congress.

The stakes for US security and global standing are obviously high, and the need for accountability in governance may never be greater. This potential scandal will almost certainly wind up as one of the most-watched stories of 2017 – and deservedly so.

Oddly, though, media curiosity does not appear to extend equally in all directions. Some of the sources for the concerns over political interference come from leaked transcripts of conversations apparently monitored by the National Security Agency (NSA), an agency with heavy restrictions on surveillance involving domestic communications, especially when involving “US persons” – American citizens and legal residents at home or abroad.

Before the passage of the Patriot Act and its controversial Section 702, the NSA could not collect such data even if incidentally captured. Since then, it has become permissible in some circumstances, but analysts redact the names of those inadvertently captured from transcripts of such conversations unless a specific FISA warrant allows for their collection. The fact sheet for Section 702 published by the NSA to argue for its renewals every five years notes that dissemination of surveillance data involving US persons is prohibited in all but a narrow set of circumstances:

The dissemination of any information about U.S. persons is expressly prohibited unless it is necessary to understand foreign intelligence or assess its importance; is evidence of a crime, or indicates a threat of death or serious bodily harm.

Even then, that information would be only disseminated to agencies with jurisdiction over those issues, not publicly released. The leaking of transcripts identifying Michael Flynn in a conversation with Russian ambassador Sergei Kirlyak in December did not meet any of those conditions, and neither did subsequent leaks of similar material naming other US persons. This led Republicans in Congress to demand investigations into the leaks themselves; FBI director James Comey declined to tell Congress whether such an investigation was underway. Rep. Trey Gowdy demanded an investigation, calling the leaks “the felonious dissemination of classified material.”

That brings us back to one big question: how did the names of US persons get back into the transcripts in the first place, after being redacted? When former national security advisor Susan Rice was asked by PBS two weeks ago about incidental surveillance of Trump campaign members, she demurred on the topic altogether. “I know nothing about this,” Rice replied. “I was surprised to see reports from Chairman Nunes on that account today.”

However, Bloomberg’s Eli Lake reported that not only did Rice know about the collection of this data, she specifically requested to be provided the unredacted transcripts – and had done so as a “pattern” discovered by the National Security Council. While those requests fall within the jurisdiction of a national security advisor, it flatly contradicted what Rice had claimed to PBS in March. When confronted with Lake’s reporting, Rice cemented the contradiction, claiming that although she had seen the transcripts, “I leaked nothing to nobody.”

That’s quite the memory boost in a two-week span, but strangely enough, media outlets began rushing to let Rice off the hook. At CNN alone, Jim Sciutto assured viewers that a source “close to Rice” insists that there was nothing to this story, and both Sciutto and anchor Don Lemon proclaimed it a “diversion” from the Trump-Russia scandal. Fellow anchor Chris Cuomo called it “fake news.” The Washington Post declared it “ginned-up … a fake scandal.”

NBC News argued that Rice couldn’t have gotten the transcripts without permission from the agencies, an explanation that didn’t explain why she just didn’t explain that when first asked. The New York Times buried mention of Rice’s extraordinary flip-flop on page A16, prompting a round of laughter from the panel on MSNBC’s Morning Joe on Tuesday, and a provocative question from host Joe Scarborough.

“What if Dick Cheney had asked for the unmasking of names for Barack Obama’s incoming administration?” Scarborough continued, “There are a lot of things we don’t know. A lot of questions we don’t know. I do know this, though, I heard the hallelujah chorus come and immediately on cue last night saying…nothing to see here. Move along, move along.”

This display of aggressive incuriosity was all the more remarkable given its immediacy. Not only did the national media want to instruct people to ignore Lake’s report, but they also wanted to make sure they were seen as completely unwilling to ask questions on the basis of it. Rather than investigate it and ask tough questions of former Obama administration officials about the approval and dissemination process that gave Rice access to unredacted information about US persons, they wanted to paint the questions themselves as illegitimate.

Furthermore, every one of these pushbacks painted the Rice story as an either/or decision for coverage with the Trump-Russia probe. Major media outlets can cover more than one story at a time, however, and the possibility that an administration might have used intelligence data for political purposes would be just as big a story – if not perhaps even bigger. That, after all, was a key component in the Watergate scandal that brought down the Richard Nixon presidency, a scandal largely uncovered under media pressure.

Perhaps further investigation would demonstrate that Rice and other Obama administration officials did not use intelligence for political purposes. The information from those unredacted transcripts got leaked by someone, though, and Rice is the first major figure known to have accessed them outside of the agencies that collected the data in the first place. After having demonstrated such drive to connect dots between Russians and Trump, the lack of curiosity from the same media to follow up on such an obvious lead on a major leak lends itself to the conclusion that the media only has an interest in intrigue when it involves Republicans.


lots of links in the article. There is just no way the story is going to have a happy ending for Rice or the Obama administration.
McGentrix
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 05:30 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

In addition all of that occurred at about the same time then president Obama took the unusual step of releasing selected NSA monitoring data, apparently including the materials in question, to all 17 intelligence agencies in the last months of his presidency.


I was going to write similar but less succinctly.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 06:00 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
Does anyone remember a time when the national news media were so in the pocket of a political party?


I think most long-time observers realize, and some will expressly say, that the obvious goal of the media (and the corporations which own them) is to get Trump removed from office in any way possible.

Trump is spot-on when he says he's in a "war" with the media, and that they are his "enemies."

And he's really not far off by calling such "fake news" an "enemy of the people." The press, the bureaucracies, the intelligence agencies, the "global" corporations, the lobbyists, and those holding some power in the existing cozy system of "crony capitalism" and political corruption are unified in attempting to bring down the government (Trump). They are not working for "the people," by any means.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 08:52 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:

You're confused as to the meaning of "unmasking." It isn't the divulgence of classified information. The word for that that's been bandied around is "leak."


I aint confusin no kinda nuthin. Maybe you just don't read so good, ever think of that?
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 09:14 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
Scarborough continued, “There are a lot of things we don’t know. A lot of questions we don’t know. I do know this, though, I heard the hallelujah chorus come and immediately on cue last night saying…nothing to see here. Move along, move along.”


"Hallelujah chorus"--nice phrase. I might have said "Amen chorus," my own damn self.

Whatever you call them, they're not just on TV. They have devout adherents who shout "amen, brother!" all over the place. Like A2k, for example, ya know?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 09:51 pm
Quote:
There is a common expression in the media that there are “some facts too good to check.” It is used in jest to reflect how you sometimes hate to give up a great story for the real facts. That tension was well on display this week as media seemed to tie itself into knots to avoid admitting that there are legitimate questions raised by the “unmasking” allegations surrounding the actions of Obama National Security Advisor Susan Rice.

Instead of acknowledging that this is a serious development, the immediate response of the media was to actively debunk the story and portray it as facially invalid. CNN anchor Chris Cuomo responded to the story with the following: “All right, President Trump, right-wing media types [are] peddling a fake scandal.” CNN anchor Don Lemon called the story a “diversion” and refused to discuss it so “not insult your intelligence.” ABC News ran an interview with Rice and again never mentioned to the viewers that she said the opposite on a national news program just weeks ago.


http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/media/327665-with-susan-rice-reporters-forgot-the-facts

More along the lines of what you just posted, Gent. There's a lot more at that site. The cheese-eaters seem to think that if they dispute or ignore something it will "just go away."

Good luck with that, cheese-eaters.

0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 10:36 pm
@layman,
Quote article:
Quote:
The intelligence reports were summaries of monitored conversations -- primarily between foreign officials discussing the Trump transition, but also in some cases direct contact between members of the Trump team and monitored foreign officials. One U.S. official familiar with the reports said they contained valuable political information on the Trump transition such as whom the Trump team was meeting, the views of Trump associates on foreign policy matters and plans for the incoming administration.

Foreign nationals do not have the right to be free of surveillance. We surveil ambassadors all the time, it's routine. You didn't know that? Then why are you even talking about these issues of which you know nothing?

Actually, the problem is not that your position is falling apart. It is that your position never existed in the first place. Do you have a SHRED of evidence that it was Susan Rice who disseminated this information to reporters? Rice had every right to tell Obama what the name of the person talking to the Russian ambassador was IF the investigative agency chose to reveal the name to her. She had every right to tell Obama. However, there is no evidence at all, that Rice leaked the name to the media.

Now that we know that none of your "evidence" even remotely supports your statements about Rice, we can only ask what the next fashionable right wing fabrication you plan to push. This one is done.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 10:38 pm
@Blickers,
Is that you, Don Lemon?
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 10:44 pm
@layman,
Qujote layman:
Quote:
Sorry, I missed the part where that article said she [Rice] could pass on the identities of private U.S. citizens at will.

Rice is part of the National Security Council, which finds out information for the president on foreign policy. She has the right to ask for the name of the person talking to the Russian ambassador who was selling out the country by telling the Russian ambassador that he need not worry about the sanctions Obama was putting on Russia, those sanctions won't be there long. Susan Rice had every right to tell Obama the name if the investigative body gave the name to her.

There still is no evidence that she gave the name to the media. Which means, you got nothing on Rice. Just noise, as usual.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 10:46 pm
I been studyin on startin me up a little cult, where I'm the adored leader. Money from the men, sex from the women, and errands run by the children, ya know?

I want to attract super-massive crowds to lead marchin down 5th avenue, so I can get lots of recognition and attract even more suckers as recruits.

I think I got the right quasi-religious object of worship figured out now.

I'll be leading these chants:

What do we want?

Cheese!

When do we want it?

Now!!

Yeah, that's the ticket.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 11:37 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

Quote article:
Quote:
The intelligence reports were summaries of monitored conversations -- primarily between foreign officials discussing the Trump transition, but also in some cases direct contact between members of the Trump team and monitored foreign officials. One U.S. official familiar with the reports said they contained valuable political information on the Trump transition such as whom the Trump team was meeting, the views of Trump associates on foreign policy matters and plans for the incoming administration.

Foreign nationals do not have the right to be free of surveillance. We surveil ambassadors all the time, it's routine. You didn't know that? Then why are you even talking about these issues of which you know nothing?

Actually, the problem is not that your position is falling apart. It is that your position never existed in the first place. Do you have a SHRED of evidence that it was Susan Rice who disseminated this information to reporters? Rice had every right to tell Obama what the name of the person talking to the Russian ambassador was IF the investigative agency chose to reveal the name to her. She had every right to tell Obama. However, there is no evidence at all, that Rice leaked the name to the media.

Now that we know that none of your "evidence" even remotely supports your statements about Rice, we can only ask what the next fashionable right wing fabrication you plan to push. This one is done.


Done? Hardly.

Yes, Rice was able to look at intelligence gathered by the NSA. That was actually part of her job. She was also allowed to ask to have masked names (American 1) unmasked so that in the case of emergencies, further action could be taken on actionable intelligence.

The problem though is this:
The dissemination of any information about U.S. persons is expressly prohibited unless it is necessary to understand foreign intelligence or assess its importance; is evidence of a crime, or indicates a threat of death or serious bodily harm.


Now, lets look at what you quoted:
Quote:
The intelligence reports were summaries of monitored conversations -- primarily between foreign officials discussing the Trump transition, but also in some cases direct contact between members of the Trump team and monitored foreign officials. One U.S. official familiar with the reports said they contained valuable political information on the Trump transition such as whom the Trump team was meeting, the views of Trump associates on foreign policy matters and plans for the incoming administration.


So, where does this "valuable political information fit into the italicized part above?

A> Evidence of a crime?
B> Indicate a threat of death?
C> Indicate a threat of serious bodily harm?

You wrote "Foreign nationals do not have the right to be free of surveillance. We surveil ambassadors all the time, it's routine. You didn't know that? Then why are you even talking about these issues of which you know nothing?"

If we are surveilling the Russians (foreign nationals), it would stand to reason that they are surveilling us in turn, right? I've not seen where Layman has suggested that he was ignorant of the fact that foreign ambassadors were not being surveiled. You jump to a lot of conclusions.

Would you say we monitor Russian email accounts? Just curious.

Your problem is that no matter what happens with Rice you will be the last rat to desert her when the evidence comes out. There a LOT of questions that still need to be answered about how the surveillance memo's got unmasked and how they got leaked.

This will be the anchor that drags Obama to the mud filled bottom of corrupted lake woe-b-gone.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2017 11:49 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
She was authorized to pass on this information to the National Security Council, which is explained by McGentrix's Wikipedia quote. That's a wide ranging field of governmental defense and security offices.


Sorry, I missed the part where that article said she could pass on the identities of private U.S. citizens at will.

Where does it say she can't?

layman wrote:
Once again, the originating entity can, and will if relevant and required, include the name in the original reports. If not, they must redact them.

Once again, the NSA could request the unmasking of these names.
0 Replies
 
 

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