1
   

Usama Bin Ladin goes to bat for John Kerry. Why?

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 01:27 pm
DAMN.

Thanks, Fox. What a chamelion.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 01:34 pm
No, Lash, the war was to get rid of Saddam's WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

How convenient to change the reasons in the middle of a failed foreign policy.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 01:35 pm
And you people bitch about Kerry changing his mind?

Oh my...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 01:43 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I meant to highlight this in the piece I just posted above. It is very telling re Kerry and Bin Laden:

Quote:
But politics has shaped Kerry's approach to this whole issue. Back in December 2001, when bin Laden was apparently hiding in Tora Bora, Kerry supported the strategy of using Afghans to hunt him down. He told Larry King that our strategy "is having its impact, and it is the best way to protect our troops and sort of minimalize the proximity, if you will. I think we have been doing this pretty effectively, and we should continue to do it that way."

But then the political wind shifted, and Kerry recalculated. Now Kerry calls the strategy he supported "outsourcing." When we rely on allies everywhere else around the world, that's multilateral cooperation, but when Bush does it in Afghanistan, it's "outsourcing."

I think Kerry was wrong then, and right now.

Somehow I find that more appealing than someone who was wrong then, and is wrong now.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 01:53 pm
Lash wrote:
I was involved in an extensive sidebar. Should have been more thoughtful about your thread continuity, and all.
Da, don't be silly. I didn't mean to sound so possesive. It doesn't matter where the thread goes. I especially like reading the exchange between Nimh and Finn. What I don't like is the thought discouraging parade of idiotic submissions by Dookie,.. sometimes two and three posts in a row:

Dookiestix wrote:
I am more concerned with the fact that terrorism only grew under the Bush administration. Afterall, 9/11 happened on HIS WATCH.
Terrorism "only grew under the Bush administration"? Rolling Eyes

Dookiestix wrote:
Kerry is bin Laden's worse nightmare.
Rolling Eyes

Dookiestix wrote:
Democracy in Iraq? They haven't even VOTED for anything yet.

Laughing
Rolling Eyes

Dookiestix wrote:
Quote:
He seems to be stumping for Kerry...

He's borrowed Micheal Moore's copy.


And you seem to be reaching.
Any damn fool could make the connection. Rolling Eyes

That's just a small sampling... and doesn't even get to how everything is "sad". It just get's a bit tiresome.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 02:20 pm
Nimh writes

Quote:
I think Kerry was wrong then, and right now.

Somehow I find that more appealing than someone who was wrong then, and is wrong now.


Changing one's mind or shifting tactics in the face of new information can be warranted and even commendable.

But don't you think it is hypocritical to come to the same conclusion as your opponent when a decision was made, and then later condemn him for making that decision?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 02:21 pm
nimh wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I meant to highlight this in the piece I just posted above. It is very telling re Kerry and Bin Laden:

Quote:
But politics has shaped Kerry's approach to this whole issue. Back in December 2001, when bin Laden was apparently hiding in Tora Bora, Kerry supported the strategy of using Afghans to hunt him down. He told Larry King that our strategy "is having its impact, and it is the best way to protect our troops and sort of minimalize the proximity, if you will. I think we have been doing this pretty effectively, and we should continue to do it that way."

But then the political wind shifted, and Kerry recalculated. Now Kerry calls the strategy he supported "outsourcing." When we rely on allies everywhere else around the world, that's multilateral cooperation, but when Bush does it in Afghanistan, it's "outsourcing."

I think Kerry was wrong then, and right now.

Somehow I find that more appealing than someone who was wrong then, and is wrong now.


Even if the person has come to correctness through an entirely supecficial and cynical process of flip flopping for personal political advancement?

The next time Kerry changes his mind because of the direction of the wind, it may just as easily be from a position you think is right to one you think is wrong.

This is a major flaw in the man's character.
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 02:34 pm
Osama is winning on all fronts with this statement.

1. Promoting counterproductive american policy by using reverse phsycology. Although this tactic seems all too transparant to me, I suppose most people interpret his intentions to support their own preconceptions, which favor Bush on national security.

2. Appearing reasonable, and sheding bogyman image (in the eyes of arabs). Rallying support for his struggle from only slightly militant muslims.

3. Expresses anti-Israeli sentiment, good PR.

4. Proves he is still alive, good for morale.

5. Bush in office will further divide America, making the prospect of somebody taking a diametrically opposite aproach in 08, winning, and withdrawing entirely from the ME more likely. The same mecanism will isolate the US from say Europe.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 02:44 pm
I disagree. I think he thinks Kerry can be manipulated and will fold like a cheap suit in the face of any criticism or negative opinion. He hates George Bush with a passion and wants to discredit, humiliate, and defeat him, and he also knows a President Bush won't weaken in resolve to come after him.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 02:47 pm
Einherjar wrote:
Osama is winning on all fronts with this statement.

1. Promoting counterproductive american policy by using reverse phsycology. Although this tactic seems all too transparant to me, I suppose most people interpret his intentions to support their own preconceptions, which favor Bush on national security.

I'm afraid I don't follow this at all. The tape was released yesterday. What policy response has there been. If his intentions are so transparent to you, perhaps you can share them with us.

2. Appearing reasonable, and sheding bogyman image (in the eyes of arabs). Rallying support for his struggle from only slightly militant muslims.

If a tape wherein he accepts expicit responsibility for the 9/11 attacks makes him appear reasonable in Arab eyes then we are at war with Arabs not Islamic terrorists. I don't at all agree with this.

3. Expresses anti-Israeli sentiment, good PR.

With the aforementioned Arabs or do you have other anti-semites in mind?

4. Proves he is still alive, good for morale.

We agree

5. Bush in office will further divide America, making the prospect of somebody taking a diametrically opposite aproach in 08, winning, and withdrawing entirely from the ME more likely. The same mecanism will isolate the US from say Europe.

Again, difficult to follow your point. Are you suggesting that Bin Laden released the tape in an attempt to help Bush get re-elected and thereby further divide America? The rest is rather confusing.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 03:02 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
But don't you think it is hypocritical to come to the same conclusion as your opponent when a decision was made, and then later condemn him for making that decision?

Yes.

So what should he have said?

Perhaps this:

"The President at the time decided to [etc]. At the time, I agreed. We were wrong. I can see this now. You can see this now. It is a shame that the President isn't able to recognize he made a mistake, not even with the knowledge we now have after the fact. He doggedly insists on continuing whatever course he took, no matter how foolish, and even prides himself for it. Well, I know better now. You know better now. But he doesn't. So re-elect this President, and you'll know what you get - the continuation of ever the same mistakes, by someone who can't look back and realise where he might have gone wrong. I've learnt from what happened, and I will do it differently."

There, whaddaya think, should I apply for a job at Kerry-Edwards? ;-)

So in response: it's hypocritical, perhaps, to condemn him for something he did Kerry himself agreed with - but that doesn't make the condemnation itself any less correct. It was wrong. If Kerry doesn't want to acknowledge that he was wrong himself as well, that reflects badly on him; but I'm glad he does now note that it was wrong - and it is right to note so.

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
The next time Kerry changes his mind because of the direction of the wind, it may just as easily be from a position you think is right to one you think is wrong.

Could be. But the chance of Bush moving to a position I think is right (on the issues I most care about, in any case) is next to zero, so the choice remains simple enough.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 03:13 pm
Bull. The honorable thing would be to say that it looked like a good idea at the time and it didn't turn out well. If we had the benefit of 20-20 hindsight we would have done it differently. But we don't, so here's how my plan is better than the President's now. . .
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 03:14 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
What I don't like is the thought discouraging parade of idiotic submissions by Dookie

You may not like his style. And blaming Bush for 'letting' 9/11 happen is indeed just stupid. The Bush admin can be blamed for having taken a cavalier attitude to the AQ threat before 9/11, however. Thats well enough documented. Its just that even if it had jumped on the case, it still wouldnt have been able to prevent 9/11 - thats why blaming anyone but AQ for 9/11 is inane.

Furthermore, when Dookie writes:

Dookiestix wrote:
Democracy in Iraq? They haven't even VOTED for anything yet.

It is simply true. The CPA has taken flak for using a process of appointments rather than free elections. Nation-wide free elections of course couldnt possibly have taken place - even January might be too early still. But what about local authorities?

And when he writes:
Dookiestix wrote:
Kerry is bin Laden's worse nightmare.

He merely summarises the argument I made earlier. Given the choice between Kerry and Bush, I believe Kerry means the more bad news for bin Laden.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 03:18 pm
Nimh writes
Quote:
Given the choice between Kerry and Bush, I believe Kerry means the more bad news for bin Laden.


Now I'm fascinated. Given his track record beginning with Vietnam and coming forward, especially considering the last 20 years in the Senate, please give me anything Kerry has done, said, voted for (that he stuck with), or proposed (that he stuck with) that would give Bin Laden any cause for concern whatsoever.
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 03:26 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Einherjar wrote:
Osama is winning on all fronts with this statement.

1. Promoting counterproductive american policy by using reverse phsycology. Although this tactic seems all too transparant to me, I suppose most people interpret his intentions to support their own preconceptions, which favor Bush on national security.

I'm afraid I don't follow this at all. The tape was released yesterday. What policy response has there been. If his intentions are so transparent to you, perhaps you can share them with us.

2. Appearing reasonable, and sheding bogyman image (in the eyes of arabs). Rallying support for his struggle from only slightly militant muslims.

If a tape wherein he accepts expicit responsibility for the 9/11 attacks makes him appear reasonable in Arab eyes then we are at war with Arabs not Islamic terrorists. I don't at all agree with this.

3. Expresses anti-Israeli sentiment, good PR.

With the aforementioned Arabs or do you have other anti-semites in mind?

4. Proves he is still alive, good for morale.

We agree

5. Bush in office will further divide America, making the prospect of somebody taking a diametrically opposite aproach in 08, winning, and withdrawing entirely from the ME more likely. The same mecanism will isolate the US from say Europe.

Again, difficult to follow your point. Are you suggesting that Bin Laden released the tape in an attempt to help Bush get re-elected and thereby further divide America? The rest is rather confusing.


Clarifying:

1. He appears to be endorsing Kerry, this rallies voters around Bush. I'm suggesting that was his intention.

2. Anti-americanism might be more widespread in the middle east than you think, although I should probably have reffered only to the more militant half of the population.

3. With the aforementioned arabs. (what other anti semites are there?)

5. I am suggesting that Osama wants Bush reelected, yes. I am also sugesting that he predicts Bush will further isolate america, as well as divide it. I think the radicalised Democrats resulting from four more years of Bush would be Osamas best hope of seing the US withdraw entirely from the middle east.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 03:32 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Nimh writes
Quote:
Given the choice between Kerry and Bush, I believe Kerry means the more bad news for bin Laden.


Now I'm fascinated. Given his track record beginning with Vietnam and coming forward, especially considering the last 20 years in the Senate, please give me anything Kerry has done, said, voted for (that he stuck with), or proposed (that he stuck with) that would give Bin Laden any cause for concern whatsoever.

If you want to know why I think Bin Laden has something to gain from Bush remaining in power (and thus would be worse off with Kerry), you can read up here.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 04:26 pm
The "they haven't voted yet" argument against democracy... If it was left to the timid and the poll watchers--they would NEVER vote.

What does that mean "they haven't voted yet"? It almost seems as though you are betting on the failure of Iraq.

They WILL vote.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 04:26 pm
Ah, so it isn't Kerry that is a problem for Bin Laden but it is that Bush is advantageous for him. Well, I'm sorry. I want a president who's going to go after him, catch him, kill him if necessary and who won't be swayed by the whims and foibles of public opinion that is largely flamed by a left-minded Bush-hating media.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 04:28 pm
Why does anyone think Kerry won't change policy in a heartbeat?
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 04:43 pm
Lash wrote:
Why does anyone think Kerry won't change policy in a heartbeat?


Because with all the conservatives out to pin the flip flopper label on him doing so would be political suicide.
0 Replies
 
 

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