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Usama Bin Ladin goes to bat for John Kerry. Why?

 
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 07:00 pm
Well, OCCOM BILL, you eventually spun your way back to some semblance of civility and even-handedness, which deserved an appropriate response. At least the vitriol on this thread has been tamed somewhat.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 07:10 pm
sozobe wrote:
What seems most plausible to me -- it was stated in nimh's article, I've seen it elsewhere as well -- is that OBL wants to stake a claim to having an effect on the election. I suspect he personally would prefer Bush, as Bush has played the nemesis so very productively, but what he most wants is power and legitimacy in the Middle East -- and if he can somehow spin this as "my videotape caused the Americans to vote ___" (with the blank being filled by the eventual victor), that helps his quest.


Bingo! I agree with everything you said except the part about him preferring Bush. I don't pretend to know which guy he prefers, or even whether it matters to him at all who is our president. I believe that he is looking at the big picture, the world view. He is looking for legitimacy and power, and although he may prefer one or the other of our candidates, he is playing to the world, not just the U.S. The more people outside the U.S. that he can convince, the more powerful he becomes. His success depends on perceptions of the U.S. by the rest of the world, and how effective he can be at isolating us as the "evil empire."

This is not just about what the people in the United States think.

In the rush to associate him with one or the other of our candidates in people's own narrow-minded partisan interests, the big picture is being overlooked.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 07:43 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I think I pre-empted that post in my response to D'art, Thomas. :wink:

Okay, let me check something here: In your opinion, is there anything Bush could have said that wouldn't have looked like a Kerry endorsement to you? Judging by your point about reverse psychology and so forth, you could always find some interpretation under which Bin Laden supports John Kerry. So could you give me an example Bin Laden could have said and that you would have not interpreted as an endorsement of John Kerry?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 08:43 pm
The full transcript of the message is here: http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0411/S00034.htm

There's A LOT that was not reported before -- some of which I think is very relevant to the discussion. Like:

Quote:
As for it's results, they have been, by the grace of Allah, positive and enormous, and have, by all standards, exceeded all expectations. This is due to many factors, chief amongst them, that we have found it difficult to deal with the Bush administration in light of the resemblance it bears to the regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the military and the other half which are ruled by the sons of kings and presidents.


Quote:
All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two Mujahideen to the furthest point East to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies.

This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the Mujahideen, bled Russia for ten years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.

All Praise is due to Allah.

So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah.

That being said, those who say that al-Qaida has won against the administration in the White House or that the administration has lost in this war have not been precise, because when one scrutinizes the results, one cannot say that al-Qaida is the sole factor in achieving those spectacular gains.

Rather, the policy of the White House that demands the opening of war fronts to keep busy their various corporations - whether they be working in the field of arms or oil or reconstruction - has helped al-Qaida to achieve these enormous results.

And so it has appeared to some analysts and diplomats that the White House and us are playing as one team towards the economic goals of the United States, even if the intentions differ.

And it was to these sorts of notions and their like that the British diplomat and others were referring in their lectures at the Royal Institute of International Affairs. (When they pointed out that) for example, al-Qaida spent $500 000 on the event, while America, in the incident and its aftermath, lost - according to the lowest estimate - more than 500 billion dollars.

Meaning that every dollar of al-Qaida defeated a million dollars by the permission of Allah, besides the loss of a huge number of jobs.

As for the size of the economic deficit, it has reached record astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars.

And even more dangerous and bitter for America is that the Mujahideen recently forced Bush to resort to emergency funds to continue the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, which is evidence of the success of the blee-until-bankruptcy plan - with Allah's permission.

It is true that this shows that al-Qaida has gained, but on the other hand, it shows that the Bush administration has also gained, something of which anyone who looks at the size of the contracts acquired by the shady Bush administration-linked mega-corporations, like Haliburton and its kind, will be convinced. And it all shows that the real loser is...you.


This kind of reinforces my opinion that his goal is to get us to overextend ourselves and bleed us dry.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 08:52 pm
Bin Laden is speaking mainly to the Muslim world, and is echoing their grievances in regard to our transgressions against them. Are their complaints legitimate? Do we even care about their complaints?
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 09:40 pm
Thomas, I suspect you are playing some kind of game with me here. While I don't like it much, I'll play along once more for courtesy's sake. I'm going to go ahead and assume you meant to ask is there anything Bin Ladin could have said that wouldn't have looked like a Kerry endorsement (as opposed to Bush?)... Though that is an interesting slip.

The answer is of course. Remove the Democratic talking points and add some Republican talking points. Instead of stealing material from Michael Moore, get some from the swifties instead. If he had done that, I probably would have named the thread "Usama Bin Ladin goes to bat for George Bush... why?

We still wouldn't know his true motive and we'd have had pretty much the same discussion... accept since everyone knows I'm no fan of Kerry, the Republicans might not have reacted quite so overly-defensively. Or maybe they would have and I'd be apologizing and explaining myself to them instead of you fine people, 33 pages later.

If he hadn't specifically targeted either man for ridicule 3 days before the election... I don't know what I'd have named the thread. Perhaps your suspicions would have been realized and I'd have named it the same. I doubt it, but I can't honestly say for sure. But, since he did take material almost verbatim from Michael Moore's ABB Film, I named it what I did.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 08:01 am
I posted this on Timber's thread, but I wanted to put it here too:

All morning I've been reading everything I get my hands on... including the transcript for a third time. I find Timber's explanation very, very plausible and will be surprised not at all when the next strike hits a State who's electoral votes go to Bush. I suspect it will be Florida, if we do indeed vote Bush (I will be). Imagine the credibility of having warned against Bush specifically to States... and then striking his next blow directly to one who didn't listen. This meshes perfectly with Nimh's interpretation of Bin Ladin's goals.

People listening in the ME will see that Bin Ladin did everything in his power to warn us away before attacking us. He can speak with great regret after he does. It is a brilliant strategy... not unlike 9-11 itself.

Let me note that I don't think the election will have any bearing what-so-ever on Bin Ladin's actions. He can always use "Kerry didn't change anything" for his excuse... but imagine how much more powerful his voice will seem after his self-fulfilling prophecy is realized and he attacks a Bush State. Idea

Btw, I'm not in the habit of believing what Bin Ladin says. If I were, I'd consider joining his cause... because his argument is very, very compelling. However, credibility is something he needs and I am now convinced that he's come up with a brilliant strategy to expand it.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 08:04 am
"meshes perfectly with nimh's interpretation of bin Laden's goals"?

I'll let nimh get that one. Don't think so, though.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 10:49 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Thomas, I suspect you are playing some kind of game with me here. While I don't like it much, I'll play along once more for courtesy's sake. I'm going to go ahead and assume you meant to ask is there anything Bin Ladin could have said that wouldn't have looked like a Kerry endorsement (as opposed to Bush?)... Though that is an interesting slip.

That was indeed what I meant to say. Gotcha.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
The answer is of course. Remove the Democratic talking points and add some Republican talking points.

A fair suggestion. Given my assumption that Bin Laden is trying to bash the American president, and given that the American president also happens to be a Republican, which president-bashing Republican talking points would you suggest? I don't know any, and doubt that such talking points exist at all. I continue to find it far fetched that Bin Laden's tape has the effect of endorsing Kerry. I find it much less far-fetched that the allegation that it does has the effect of smearing Kerry for something that isn't his fault.

As for the game-playing, I am not playing games with you, and I am not assuming you are playing games with me. I believe this is one of these genuine internet irritations that sometimes make nice people think their correspondents have all lost their mind. It's not pretty for either of us, and it's one of these things that suck about the internet. I guess I'll just leave this thread alone until we have all cooled off a bit. Let's hope this happens as soon as early next morning.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 11:25 am
Fair enough Thomas. We're all on edge... but not for much longer. I assure you I'm playing no game with anyone. This is just a tough one to see eye-to-eye on I guess. I can't speak for anybody else, but I fault John Kerry not at all for Bin Ladin's untimely outburst. Nor does it strengthen my support for Bush. I finally made up my mind that it had to be Bush because I want the other dictators of the world to know Bush has mandate. Without the American people behind him, I fear his tough talk is that much less effective. In 4 years we'll know if Iraq was a good idea or not. Good luck to everyone.
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 11:32 am
We don't have 4 years and 60,000 more casualties frittered away to find out Bill. On that note...I'll also say good luck to everyone.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 01:27 pm
Quote:
I finally made up my mind that it had to be Bush because I want the other dictators of the world to know Bush has mandate


Quote:
If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." --- George W. Bush


Question
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 01:40 pm
Quote:
Pundits conceded they were wrong on bin Laden tape predictions

Several pundits have conceded that polling has not borne out their initial speculation that the release of a videotaped message from Osama bin Laden on October 29 would benefit President George W. Bush politically.

As Media Matters for America noted on October 30, October 31, and November 1, polls conducted since the tape's release have shown a stable race or a trend towards Senator John Kerry.

Some pundits acknowledged that their initial predictions appeared to have been wrong:

• Karen Tumulty, TIME magazine national political correspondent, on October 29:

Quite frankly, I find it hard to find any way that this helps John Kerry. What we've seen over and over and over again is that when terrorism is the topic, and when people are reminded of 9-11, Bush's numbers go up. [CNN, Lou Dobbs Tonight]

Tumulty on November 1:

Roger [Simon, U.S. News & World Report chief political correspondent and fellow panelist] and I both thought that the Osama bin Laden tape was probably going to be enough to move at least a few voters. Well, you look at the weekend polling, and that does not seem to have happened. [CNN, Lou Dobbs Tonight]

• Mike Barnicle, Boston Herald columnist, on October 29:

Instinctively, I would say it would play strongly for President Bush, especially among those that might be undecided at this late stage in the election ... this would be, I think, play right to George Bush's strength. [MSNBC, 4 Days & Counting: An Election Special]

Barnicle on October 31:

RON REAGAN (MSNBC political analyst): What tipped me was that the eagerness of some people on the Bush/Cheney team and on the right seized on the bin Laden tape as the October surprise that's gonna throw it to Bush. It's like suddenly bin Laden's their friend, and I thought, well, this is ironic If you're counting on Osama bin Laden to, like, endorse you in an odd backwards way --

BARNICLE: I fell for that hype on Saturday. [MSNBC, After Hours]

• Pat Buchanan, MSNBC analyst and former Republican presidential candidate, on October 29:

Clearly, bin Laden is showing us he's alive and well and taunting us and saying Bush did not get me despite what he said. But clearly at the same time, he is insulting and challenging the president of the United States, and if he turns this in Osama bin Laden versus Bush, the president is going to benefit for the next three days. [MSNBC, 4 Days & Counting: An Election Special]

Buchanan on November 1:

I thought it would be beneficial to Bush. ... But there's no doubt that we thought it would have much more impact than it appears to have had on the mindset [of the electorate]. Posted to the web on Tuesday November 2, 2004 at 2:10 PM EST

http://mediamatters.org/items/200411020007
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 03:44 pm
How about that, Dook? Bin Ladin's pollsters must have taken too small of sample. Razz
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 03:51 pm
I'll say it again -- overall intent was not to sway the American electorate but to tell the Muslim world, after the fact, "I swayed the American electorate."
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 03:52 pm
sozobe wrote:
I'll say it again -- overall intent was not to sway the American electorate but to tell the Muslim world, after the fact, "I swayed the American electorate."


Question
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 03:56 pm
I mean, he doesn't particularly care if it's Bush or Kerry -- he is not actually trying to steer American voters one way or the other. The intended audience is the Muslim world, and he wants to be able to say, after the fact, that he had an influence, and the reelection of ___ (eventual victor) is what he wanted all along.

Anyway, I've said that plenty of times now, will zip it for a bit.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 03:56 pm
sozobe wrote:
I'll say it again -- overall intent was not to sway the American electorate but to tell the Muslim world, after the fact, "I swayed the American electorate."


Quite likely - (though who the heck knows what bin Laden's tactics really mean) and, if Kerry wins, I wonder if the right will then spend the next four years saying "He only won because of bin Laden"?
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 04:11 pm
dlowan wrote:
sozobe wrote:
I'll say it again -- overall intent was not to sway the American electorate but to tell the Muslim world, after the fact, "I swayed the American electorate."


Quite likely - (though who the heck knows what bin Laden's tactics really mean) and, if Kerry wins, I wonder if the right will then spend the next four years saying "He only won because of bin Laden"?
You won't hear that from me. When they swear in a President, he's the President. End of story for 4 years.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 04:12 pm
On ya, as we say in Oz.
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