Outlaw Cities

@McGentrix,

McGentrix,

You are making a rational argument. You make two good points; that legal immigrants should be preferred to illegal immigrants, and that there needs to be a "line in the dirt".

However it isn't as simple as that. There are three confounding factors.

1) Our immigration system is deeply flawed in that it is completely detached from economic reality. If our immigration laws were enforced to the letter, several sectors of our economy would collapse. For example, our agricultural sector would either fold up and go to Mexico (after the workers), or the price of our food would increase drastically.

2) Human behavior (including yours) is effected as much by economic reality than by laws. You drive over the speed limit. The problem of Americans downloading music and movies illegally was to give up on enforcement and change the laws. Many Americans still break the letter of the copyright laws. Since the industry realized it wasn't worth fighting in many cases, no one cares.

3) The real battle of immigration is over American Culture. The biggest disagreement between Gunga and I (which is mirrored by many Republicans in Congress, and by Trump in some of his tweets) is what American Culture means.

There is the idea that people going to a Mosque, or speaking Spanish is damaging to real Americans. Many of us disagree. Note: I am being careful here not to use the word "racism". I am trying to describe a real difference in as fair a way as possible.

It is a fact that most people in Boston and New York have no problem with hearing multiple languages in public, wearing religious garb or many types or having different skin colors or foods.

We feel that there is a misguided goal of immigration policy, to favor the traditional White Protestant culture over every other culture. That is why when Republicans talk about the threat to "American Culture" it makes me respond defiantly. To my family, speaking Spanish is a big part of American culture.

4) If we had an immigration policy that was fair, economically sound, and accepting cultural diversity, then I would support a strong enforcement.

We don't have that. It makes your line in the dirt rather muddy.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Isn't this what Gunga is arguing? Gunga, do you think that "anchor babies" are equally American as you are?

No other nation on Earth has this problem...

0 Replies

@farmerman,

Quote:

From what great bodily orifice did you pull this outta? The ancient kingdom of Punt and the nearby IFE were some of the mot advanced civilizations that had been lost to Eurocentric archaeologists.
You should watch Prof Gates program on the history of Africa, (I watched it from the sense of art and saw the IFE bronzes as much more sophisticated than what was being done in the "civilized world" at the time.

Interesting contrast between Russia and Somalia....

Basic stone cold/ hard realities as regards Russia:

The Soviet Union is dead and buried; Russians had a 70 year look at that bullshit and understands it, much better than we do in fact.

Russia is a Christian nation, substantially more so than we are in fact. In fact there are enough lunatics in the world that we should not even have weapons pointed at Christians.

The deep state, the military-industrial complex, and the banking cabal which the Democrat party serves all want to Russia as a perpetual adversary for a simple reason: Russia is the only theoretical adversary which could justify the fat cat pocket lining projects and technologies, aircraft carriers, the F35 fighter jet etc. etc.

In fact, if your goal is to simply reinstate McCarthyism, and you need a nation to use as a McCarthy boogie man for purposes of Democrat/deep state propaganda, the Muslim world offers several candidates which would work vastly better than Russia for that sort of thing. One stunningly good candidate would be Somalia, and this is despite the fact that Somalis appear to have actually been prioritized by American and EU immigration officials and the Obunga regime for immigration.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/99-muslim-43000-somali-refugees-settled-in-us-under-obama/article/2608316

Somalis figure prominently in many of the horror stories which you read about crime and grief being perpetrated by recent immigrants and "refugees"

http://www.wnd.com/2016/07/muslim-refugees-threaten-minnesota-community-with-rape/

There appear to be reasons for that which go beyond the ordinary questions of religious fanaticism. A listing of average IQ by nation shows average IQ in Somalia being 68, that's right, two points below the standard definition for mental retardation.

https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

This is not a racial thing, this is a predictable consequence of people marrying their own cousins for many centuries. Islam encourages that; Muslims view Mohammed as the ideal man, worthy of emulation all things, and Mohammed was known to have married at least a couple of his own cousins.

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/why-so-much-retardation-among-somalis.html

There may in fact be places in Somalian society for people with IQs at or below 68; there is no reasonable job or function for such people in America. Nor is there any possible decent motive for politicians like Bork Obunga or Angela Ferkel to prioritize immigration from a place like Somalia. Even if the objective was to import voting blocks for a foobar political party which was no longer capable of generating support amongst even the lower half of the gene pool in a country like America, Germany, or Sweden, it would be more trouble than it would be worth.

The only motive I can imagine for such a policy would be a desire to create chaos and render the unfortunate nation in question susceptible to political chaos and upheaval.

1 Reply

Again, the website which gives average IQs by nation:

https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

For the benefit of snowflakes whose knee-jerk reactions will be to claim that IQ represents degree of Westernization, white privilege and so forth or something like that, consider the first eight or 10 places in that listing:

Quote:

Rank Country IQ
1 Hong Kong Hong Kong 108
1 Singapore Singapore 108
2 South Korea South Korea 106
3 Japan Japan 105
3 China China 105
4 Taiwan Taiwan 104
5 Italy Italy 102
6 Iceland Iceland 101
6 Mongolia Mongolia 101
6 Switzerland Switzerland 101
7 Austria Austria 100
7 Luxembourg Luxembourg 100
7 Netherlands Netherlands 100
7 Norway Norway 100
7 United Kingdom 100
8 Belgium Belgium 99
8 Canada Canada 99
8 Estonia Estonia 99
8 Finland Finland 99
8 Germany Germany 99
8 Poland Poland 99
8 Sweden Sweden 99
9 and so forth,,,,, 98 ......

Notice that ninth item on the list... How westernized is Mongolia supposed to be? How much white privilege is the typical Mongol supposed to be benefiting from??

Granted Mongolia was once the most powerful military nation which has ever existed, even that was many centuries ago. But there is one thing to about Mongols, at least at the time of Genghis Khan, which I would point out here: they were completely exogenous, not marrying even within their own tribe, much less their own family, and it could easily be that this practice remains largely an effect today.

Being exogenous is the polar opposite of inbreeding... Unfortunately, Mongolia does not have the population for anybody to hope that very many of them would ever immigrate to the United States...

0 Replies

@gungasnake,

McGentrix,

I am assuming that you do not want to be linked together with Gunga's positions. I would like my discussion with you to be separate from what Gunga is saying.

Please tell me if this assumption is wrong.

0 Replies

http://thedcgazette.com/2014/muslim-inbreeding-may-genetic-catastrophe/

The "rat people" of Pakistan, 1400 years of people marrying their own cousins:

http://cdn.thedcgazette.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/defect.jpg

2 Replies

@gungasnake,

gungasnake wrote:

marrying their own cousins

This could be the caption for most yearbook pictures south of the mason dixon

1 Reply

@djjd62,

It is true that the average IQ of northern states is higher than the IQ of southern states. And Atheists have a higher average IQ than Christians.

And people who have high IQs realize that this type of correlation is nonsense.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

You approve of the idea of prioritizing people with IQs below 68 for immigration??

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

McGentrix,

You are making a rational argument. You make two good points; that legal immigrants should be preferred to illegal immigrants, and that there needs to be a "line in the dirt".

However it isn't as simple as that. There are three confounding factors.

It is as simple as that. We, as a country, have borders and crossing those borders illegally is a crime and you risk everything committing that crime. Every illegal immigrant knows the risks.

Quote:

1) Our immigration system is deeply flawed in that it is completely detached from economic reality. If our immigration laws were enforced to the letter, several sectors of our economy would collapse. For example, our agricultural sector would either fold up and go to Mexico (after the workers), or the price of our food would increase drastically.

Here is the link: https://www.uscis.gov/

Tell me the flaws.

Quote:

2) Human behavior (including yours) is effected as much by economic reality than by laws. You drive over the speed limit. The problem of Americans downloading music and movies illegally was to give up on enforcement and change the laws. Many Americans still break the letter of the copyright laws. Since the industry realized it wasn't worth fighting in many cases, no one cares.

The economic reality of getting caught breaking the law far outweighs my desire to break the law than to do something illegal. America is over burdened by laws against almost everything. We are no longer the home of the free, we are the home of the prisoner now.

I care. I have instilled in my children that they need to care.

Quote:

3) The real battle of immigration is over American Culture. The biggest disagreement between Gunga and I (which is mirrored by many Republicans in Congress, and by Trump in some of his tweets) is what American Culture means.

What is there to fear about American culture? Most of the immigrants I interact with bath in American culture and they are quick to point out others who do not. Speaking English and going to McDonalds while driving a Ford with a baseball game on the radio is nothing to fear. The real fear is ostracizing one self in a ghetto not knowing how to communicate and building up animosity for the people around you taking advantage of their freedoms.

Quote:

There is the idea that people going to a Mosque, or speaking Spanish is damaging to real Americans. Many of us disagree. Note: I am being careful here not to use the word "racism". I am trying to describe a real difference in as fair a way as possible.

There are also those that see people go to a Catholic church are anti-abortion and anti-illegal immigrant is damaging to "real" Americans. Many of us disagree.

Quote:

It is a fact that most people in Boston and New York have no problem with hearing multiple languages in public, wearing religious garb or many types or having different skin colors or foods.

We feel that there is a misguided goal of immigration policy, to favor the traditional White Protestant culture over every other culture. That is why when Republicans talk about the threat to "American Culture" it makes me respond defiantly. To my family, speaking Spanish is a big part of American culture.

4) If we had an immigration policy that was fair, economically sound, and accepting cultural diversity, then I would support a strong enforcement.

We don't have that. It makes your line in the dirt rather muddy.

We have an immigration policy already that was not enforced for the last 8 years. You disagreeing with it doesn't make it wrong. I am sure you disagree with a lot of stuff.

America is a mixed soup and no group is favored over another. Just that they all follow the laws and be breaking it the very first time you set foot in America is no way to start a life in America.

2 Replies

@McGentrix,

Quote:

Most of the immigrants I interact with bath in American culture and they are quick to point out others who do not.

What is American culture? Who defines it? Clearly the culture you get in Boston, San Francisco and New York City is vastly different than the culture you experience in middle America.

You are brushing this aside. Speaking Spanish is part of the American experience in many parts of the country. And yet, you here many politicians and conservatives lamenting that anyone speak a language other than English.

Quote:

Tell me the flaws.

I told you a couple of the main flaws. You might want to read what I wrote again.

Quote:

We have an immigration policy already that was not enforced for the last 8 years. You disagreeing with it doesn't make it wrong. I am sure you disagree with a lot of stuff.

Here is where we get to the political reality. There are many of us, particularly in the cities and the coasts, where we value our immigrants and diverse culture. I like the fact that I can step on the street and hear a dozen different languages. I pass by a mosque, a synagogue and a church taking my daughter to school.

Our communities of American citizens are determined to protect our immigrant communities... even the parts that are undocumented. People marry, and have children and build relationships and friendships and communities. You don't arrest "illegal" immigrants without deeply impacting our communities which includes many of us who are American citizens.

This is why we are fighting.

I get what you are saying about laws and borders. I concede the point that people are breaking the law and that it would be better if they came legally. That is not my argument. The argument is that the law isn't working and should be changed... and that this "enforcement" you are calling for is morally wrong.

We are not without political power. Even Trump understands this and is treading lightly, especially with the Dreamers. Someone has wisely told him that there will be a grave political cost if he steps too far... and that is how Democracy works.

Our immigration laws are not reasonable or realistic. We have set up a system that provides an economic incentive for coming and then pushes people into the shadows. This is ridiculous and inhumane.

That is why there is a lot of political pressure, from American citizens, for immigrant rights.

This is how Democracy works.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

This is your main problem

Quote:

Here is where we get to the political reality. There are many of us, particularly in the cities and the coasts, where we value our immigrants and diverse culture. I like the fact that I can step on the street and hear a dozen different languages. I pass by a mosque, a synagogue and a church taking my daughter to school.

You, and others, keep conflating "Legal" immigration and "illegal" immigration. Have I ever said anything about having a problem with immigrants? If you continue, I will see no use in continuing this conversation.

To answer your other question, American culture is American culture. It's not Mexican culture, it's not polish culture, it's not Argentinian culture, or any other culture. It's about coming to America and being an American. Not coming to America and being Mexican.

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

Yes, to me (and to many Americans) there is little important difference between legal and "illegal" immigration. If my co-worker gets herself to work... I don't care whether she sped to get there or not. I care that she is there to contribute to the project.

I understand that this is an important distinction to you. It isn't one to me. Of course, I would prefer that all immigration be done legally... but to get there, in my opinion, we are going to have to change the laws.

I will point out that there are many cases where laws that are being routinely broken are changed to match economic reality. Do you remember a few years ago when the RIAA (who represent record companies) was suing people for downloading music illegally? The RIAA was absolutely correct legally speaking. But when grandmothers showed up on TV who were being hurt by lawsuits, it was the RIAA that backed down. The rules were changed to match the reality.

In my opinion this is the same situation we face with immigration. I understand that there there is a political disagreement here and that many people think differently about this.

Quote:

American culture is American culture. It's not Mexican culture, it's not polish culture, it's not Argentinian culture, or any other culture. It's about coming to America and being an American. Not coming to America and being Mexican.

This doesn't answer the question at all. Who gets to say whether speaking Spanish is part of American culture or not? Who says if going to mosque is American, or if eating frankfurters is American? Who decides if having a Bar Mitzvah is part of American culture.

There are Americans who believe that each of these practices is an integral part of American culture. And, there are Americans who believe that each of these things is foreign, un-American and possibly dangerous.

Who decides who is right? There is a group of people (Gunga included) who seem to think that only Northern European, Protestant culture counts as American. There are others that believe that American culture includes different languages, religions, foods and customs that have been woven together through our history.

My understanding and appreciation of American culture revolves around freedom and diversity, acceptance of our differences and cultural heritages. I accept that there are some who disagree with me.

1 Reply

I was thinking unless Mc G can speak Navajo, or Yupik or Sioux, he is not engaging in an american language.

0 Replies

@gungasnake,

You are a shining example of what it takes to be a Trump supporter, gungasnake.

The US has a long history of exploiting people in this same fashion. Countless folks were the subject of fair side shows that were staple of Ike the war criminal's time.

Quote:

World: South Asia

The rat children of Pakistan

Medieval contraptions

The allegation that the children are being deformed using medieval contraptions is of course denied by those associated with the shrine in Gujrat. They say the rat-children are suffering from a genetic disease.

But Pakistan's top genetic scientist, Dr Qasim Mehdi, who investigated this for three years, says this is medically impossible.

"In order for a disease to be genetically inherited you have to have a disease running in the family" he says.

"The point is that these children are not related to one another by any stretch of the imagination. Our investigation shows that they come from very different backgrounds, from very different families. So if there is no blood relationship between any two individuals and between even an incident where a father or son or uncle was involved, it cannot be a genetically inherited disease."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/122670.stm

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

People with a high IQs don't sit silent while their American countrymen/women tell gigantic lies.

Wait, on second thought, they actually do.

0 Replies

@McGentrix,

Quote:

I care. I have instilled in my children that they need to care.

Have you told them about the tens of millions from the poor countries of the world that have been cared into graves by benevolent America bringing them democracy?

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Yes, to me (and to many Americans) there is little important difference between legal and "illegal" immigration.

I don't see much use in discussing this with you any further. We will just agree to disagree.

2 Replies

@McGentrix,

Running away again, McGentrix.

0 Replies

@McGentrix,

Ok McGentrix. Although I think it is interesting to see where we agree, and where we disagree.

You are seeing a growing Sanctuary movement that is supported by a number of American citizens. And apart from this you will see a number of cities and states enact moderate policies protecting "illegal" immigrants and their families that have the support of American citizens.

If you want to understand this better or talk about it in a rational way... I am here.

1 Reply

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know