Views of the US election from non-US folk

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Mebbe we get into constant over-correction loops here - where each side focusses on the negatives of the other, seeing this as a correction to over-focus on positives by the other - sort of like a sugar dump, where too much sugar promotes too much insulin, followed by low sugar, and a desire to eat sweets????? (I like digressions and odd thoughts.)

Not so much a "digression and odd thought" as a valid and probably true observation, IMO.

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I do consider Iraq part of a sort of imperialist US scheme - but not merely for historic reasons. Do you deny that it is? In fact, I don't really understand what you are trying to say there. And - you DO control - or try to - lots of countries - with few actual invasions. You didn't invade Iran or Chile - just set up a puppet government. This is an example of how you do things - as did the soviets - though they favoured invasion more than you guys do - at least just after the war they did. And when countries got frisky - like Poland and Czechoslovakia.

Yes, I do. The reasons for the invasion of Iraq were many and valid. Getting our grubby little hands on the oil so we could steal it, was not one of them. I do not discount the strategic benefit of having some measure of control over oil, and that part of the world (ME) is very strategic for that reason. But the "over-correction" by some lefties to say the only reason we went to Iraq was to plunder its natural resources causes me to bristle.

Saddam is no longer in power. It behooves not only the US, but the rest of the world to instill a democratic government. Doubtless the government will be friendly towards the US, but that may not always be the case. It certainly pays some countries to have the US as its ally. But I do not believe the claim of "puppet" government if warranted. For I am equally certain that in the right climate, the US and Iraq will differ. So too will the US and Afghanistan. This may be years down the road, but I put no stock in the claim that either of those two governments are nothing more than "puppet governments."

And thank you for pointing out a distinction between the democratic United State, and the Communist Soviet Union. You might also mention the gulags and the murderous regimes of the former USSR, just in case someone harbored any questions about the differences between our countries over the years.

Einherjar wrote:

Not true, Japan gives more, in dollar amount.

I knew I could count on someone in this thread to correct me on that point if I was wrong. :wink:

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"Yes, I do. The reasons for the invasion of Iraq were many and valid. Getting our grubby little hands on the oil so we could steal it, was not one of them."

Sigh - I never said nothing about no oil. I am thinking power base - you know - your hegemony.

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From the California Institute of Technology

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~kai/foreignaid.jpg

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I think that these contributions should be worked out proportional to the countrys wealth. I think that you'd probably find that America would slip down the list of generosity.( obviously beaten to it by that snazzy graph above! - Ireland is missing though!! as of 2002 .41% of GNP was going to aid))

What was the latest I heard? $15 billion spent on aid for other countries - which is, in anyones book, a huge amount of money AND admirable. However when you look at that amount and what they spent on the military in the same period - well, lets just say it could've been so much more!!

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Well, and Israel gets 12.5 % of the US foreign aid - a country, what most other countries don't have on the list for foreign aid at all!

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Walter, I've known you to be a pretty fair man. That last post is just plain ignorant.

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"Saddam is no longer in power."

That is interesting.

Can we possibly have conversation where we put aside the bristle thing, do you think?

You see, when I see that, I bristle. It drives me nuts - because I read into it a smug triumphalism and a crowing "Look - with the worst of motives (unacknowledged) we have pulled this rabbit out of the hat!!! And yah boo sucks to all the objections you nasty people raise - we got rid of Saddam!!!"

And, yes, you did. That is good - I have acknowledged that it is. If I prayed, I would be praying for success in Iraq - for a proper government - for a chance of goodness and happiness for those folk.

But - because - rightly or wrongly - I read in all the other stuff, (be honest - was it there???) I want to correct - to say all the harm that I believe has been done by this war - my terrible fears for the future for Iraq - and the history - you guys helped make him the monster that he was!!!!! Dammit, can't you SEE that!!!

And so, on with the fight.

Look - I am overjoyed that Saddam is gone. There.

Can you, in turn, admit that my concerns are real and honestly held - not just attempts to bash America?

(Nevermind that Oz is in there, too, so - when I criticise, I criticise my country just as fiercely)

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dlowan wrote:

"Yes, I do. The reasons for the invasion of Iraq were many and valid. Getting our grubby little hands on the oil so we could steal it, was not one of them."

Sigh - I never said nothing about no oil. I am thinking power base - you know - your hegemony.

You will forgive my being engaged in an "over-correction" loop.

dlowan wrote:

"Saddam is no longer in power."

That is interesting.

Can we possibly have conversation where we put aside the bristle thing, do you think?

You see, when I see that, I bristle. It drives me nuts - because I read into it a smug triumphalism and a crowing "Look - with the worst of motives (unacknowledged) we have pulled this rabbit out of the hat!!! And yah boo sucks to all the objections you nasty people raise - we got rid of Saddam!!!"

*sigh* Can't I simply state a fact and try and make a point without falsely being accused of "smug triumphalism"?

I can admit you have fears and concerns. And that they're honestly held. And further, that they're real. But I retain optimism that in the end, when all is said and done, the world is and will remain a better and safer place without Saddam in power. In the end, Iraq will be a stable force in the region. This will take time, but it will come.

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gav wrote:

I think that these contributions should be worked out proportional to the countrys wealth. I think that you'd probably find that America would slip down the list of generosity.( obviously beaten to it by that snazzy graph above! - Ireland is missing though!! as of 2002 .41% of GNP was going to aid))

What was the latest I heard? $15 billion spent on aid for other countries - which is, in anyones book, a huge amount of money AND admirable. However when you look at that amount and what they spent on the military in the same period - well, lets just say it could've been so much more!!

Gav, you're Irish, no?

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Er - Tico - you missed the point.

I was trying to explain what happens to me when I read those seemingly simple words in the current polarised context - what I read into them - I was ASKING you, and explaining to you, not accusing you.

But - you have come through on the other bit anyway. " can admit you have fears and concerns. And that they're honestly held. And further, that they're real."

You see, I think the polarity here has recently got so bad, that even that is impossible for lots of folk to do. But - the demonization thing is sickening me so much, that I may be exaggerating the polarity.

Anyhoo - interesting discussion!

Thankee.

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panzade wrote:

Walter, I've known you to be a pretty fair man. That last post is just plain ignorant.

Well, I've only checked some European country's foreign aid contributions: Israel is here not seen as country for foreign aid but just a "business partner" as any other non-"third-world"-country.

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McGentrix wrote:

Sorry Blatham. I was quoting from that Jerry McQuire movie is all.

Oh, and you are free to marry as many times as you wish to whomever you wish. Why would you think that would bother me

McG

Sorry, didn't recognize the quote. And as to the other...I was funnin. Actually, I'm hoping to become your neighbor, and then we can sit down in the rec room and drink beer and throw darts at pictures of Jane Fonda (but the Barbarella pictures because they are kind of horny), and then we can go out to the garage and look at your new car and our wives will bring us little triangle sandwiches and they'll share anecdotes about Annette Funnicello's sad illness. This is the future I want.

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SOunds comforting. Be sure you get a shed.

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dlowan wrote:

Hmm, Blatham - I think that Imperial Britain, for example, had hubris aplenty - but it is not IN OUR FACES!!! America's is.

Imperial Britain excused its depradations, if it bothered to do so at all, in a similar way to current US think - eg "civilising (bringing democracy and liberty to) the savages (Middle East).

Athens suffered from terrible hubris, and possibly died because of it.

I think America's is no better and no worse. It is just overpaid, over-sexed and over here, NOW.

deb

Well, I was saying two things. The first is, really, what you've said above...America isn't alone at my prisoner's dock and it's no easy task to point to the particular swarthy cut-throat more guilty than those he, shoulders bowed now, stands with.

So I can't say America is worse. But if that lands upon one's inner-ear as intellectually fair and careful, then we ought to apply the same gracious standard to the opposite case...that America is better.

I consider modesty and reflection admirable characteristics in those more powerful than myself. The Dutch and the Athenians can't get at me.

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Ticomaya wrote:

Gav, you're Irish, no?

Aye

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Take a break, Blatham. A long break. Otherwise the politically correct among us will pile on you for your.....

"...America isn't alone at my prisoner's dock and it's no easy task to point to the particular swarthy cut-throat more guilty than those he, shoulders bowed now, stands with."

.....on the same grounds they piled on Walt Disney for The Lion King depiction of jackals as having black faces. The fact jackals DO have black faces makes no difference - but, hey, who you callin' "swarthy"?! <G>

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georgeob1 wrote:

Tico, You will very quickly be told that, although in absolute terms the amount given may be larger, in terms of % of GDP it is less than that of most European nations.

So you have learned something during your time here !!!

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panzade wrote:

Walter, I've known you to be a pretty fair man. That last post is just plain ignorant.

and the plain truth

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gav wrote:

I think that these contributions should be worked out proportional to the countrys wealth. I think that you'd probably find that America would slip down the list of generosity.( obviously beaten to it by that snazzy graph above! - Ireland is missing though!! as of 2002 .41% of GNP was going to aid))

What was the latest I heard? $15 billion spent on aid for other countries - which is, in anyones book, a huge amount of money AND admirable. However when you look at that amount and what they spent on the military in the same period - well, lets just say it could've been so much more!!

"Worked out" by whom? The United Nations? Sorry, we are a sovereign nation and make our own choices.

Until about a decade ago Ireland was the recipient of substantial EU aid. In those days lots of money was sent by Irish Americans in my family to family back in Dungarvan, Ennis and Kenmare. Same goes for thousands of others. No one counts that in the statistics.

Do you believe the world would be a better place without the American military?

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"Worked out" by whom? The United Nations? Sorry, we are a sovereign nation and make our own choices.

Pretty sure Iraq was a sovereign nation, did they choose to have an invasion?

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Do you believe the world would be a better place without the American military?

I think the world we a better place if the American military was used more wisely.

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Views of the US election from non-US folk

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