Got a bible? Grab it and look at this.

To quote Stevie Wonder . . .

When you believe in things
You don't understand
You'll suffer . . .
Superstition ain't the way . . .

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Some people continue to say they "believe in" humans taking responsibility for themselves, and not God because there is no God.

In the movie "Ray" Ray Charles took responsibility for himself. So did Tina Turner in whateverthenameofthatmovie about her. There is no separation between taking-responsibility-for-yourself and "God." People who take responsibility for themselves eventually do what they came here to do -- be anything in this world they want. God experiences through us, and he/she likes to sing and dance! and write books, paint pictures, teach, serve others.

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sunlover wrote:

Some people continue to say they "believe in" humans taking responsibility for themselves, and not God because there is no God.

In the movie "Ray" Ray Charles took responsibility for himself. So did Tina Turner in whateverthenameofthatmovie about her. There is no separation between taking-responsibility-for-yourself and "God." People who take responsibility for themselves eventually do what they came here to do -- be anything in this world they want. God experiences through us, and he/she likes to sing and dance! and write books, paint pictures, teach, serve others.

This "God" you keep mentioning, Sunlover...how do you know it exists?

Or is it that you DO NOT know...and are just typing words?

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existence of God
Frank
I know that your question was directed to sunlover, but I hope you don't mind my answering it.
How do I know that there is a God? I look at the evidence. When I weigh the evidence for or against, I am convinced that there is a God. The experiences of my life are a major part of this evidence. I am well aware that this is probably not going to convince anybody who does not already believe in God. After all those experiences were mine. It would not be reasonable to expect that they would impact someone else in the same way they did me. Also i spent many yrs denying the existence of God. Then I tried to make him into what I wanted him to be. With this kind of a past, I can hardly look down on nonbelievers. You've likely noticed that I have only answered the question "how do I know" and not "why should anyone else believe". I am convinced that God sometimes taps us on the shoulders to get our attention. If we don't respond to that it may be a good swift kick in the ass that we need. I pray that everyone would simply be receptive to the tap. I know personally, that kick sure can hurt. You might try reading some of LEE Strobel books. He has a gift for writing that I clearly lack. Thanks for patiently reading this and God Bless you.
dadothree

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Dad...

I understand and appreciate where you are coming from. I hope you can understand and appreciate my position.

I am not saying there is no God.

I do not know if there is a God...or if there are no gods.

And I do not see anywhere near enough unambiguous evidence upon which to make a reasonable guess in either direction.

Theists, like you, often mention that they weigh the evidence for an against...and are convinced, based on that evidence, that a God exists.

Atheists often mention that the weigh the same evidence for and against...and are convinced, based on that evidence, that there are no gods.

As respectfully as possible...I think you are both kidding yourselves.

There is no evidence FOR THE EXISTENCE OF A GOD...that cannot be easily otherwise explained...or, in fact, used as evidence AGAINST THE EXISTENCE OF GODS.

Conversely, there is no evidence AGAINST THE EXISTENCE OF GODS...that cannot be easily otherwise explained...or, in fact, used as evidence FOR THE EXISTENCE OF A GOD.

I know I do not know either way...and I know I do not have enough evidence upon which to base a reasonable, meaningful guess.

I SUSPECT you folks don't either.

I think theists and atheists simply guess...wild blind guessing.

It is my opinion that when atheists do this...it is simply bull-headedness. When theists do it...it is superstition.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

koodles4you wrote:
Frank, say we as Christians are wrong, where do we go? what happens to us? if you are wrong and we are right you will spend the rest of eternity in hell.

Only if the God that happens to exist is a monstrous, scumbag like the god described in the Bible.

If that piece of shyt god actually exists...I AM going to spend eternity in hell...because there is no way I can even stand that god, let alone love and worship it.

But the question I might ask you is: Why would you worship...or pretend to love...a god who plans to punish some people by torturing them relentlessly for all the rest of eternity?

Saddam Hussein was not that disgusting; Napoleon wasn't; Nero wasn't.

Why would you worship...or pretend to love...a god who plans to punish some people by torturing them relentlessly FOR ALL THE REST OF ETERNITY?????

Frank, I love this entire post.

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koodles4you wrote:

Frank, say we as Christians are wrong, where do we go? what happens to us? if you are wrong and we are right you will spend the rest of eternity in hell.

I have always found it interesting that some Christians use this as some justification for their faith. It's plainly ignorant and a useless statement.

koodles4you, say you as Christians are wrong and that another religion is right (pick any one of the hundreds), where do you go? what happens to you? if you are wrong and the other religion is right you will spend the rest of eternity in hell (or wherever).

I would like you to answer one question for me.

Why do you believe in Christianity above all other religions?

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SmokingFire wrote:

In fact, it saddens the heart of god to have his children reject him, regardles of all the people he sent in your way.

I will pleasently spend the rest of my days saddening your god.

I also felt a need to fix your punctuation. You had a bunch of capital letters in the wrong places.

Quote:

It saddens my heart to see people speak so blatently against their own lives as well, now, I will bever force anyone to believe what I believe, no, that is your walk not mine. All I do is bring forth of what I know and what I live to light, so people can judge for themselves.

While my intention is not to sadden YOUR heart, and suppose it's an inevitable by-product of me not believing in your god. You do realize that there are 5 billion people who do not believe in your god right? Do you weep for them as well?

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maporsche wrote:

Frank, I love this entire post.

Thanks, Maporsche.

Welcome to A2K. Hope you stick around and contribute to the threads.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

maporsche wrote:

Frank, I love this entire post.

Thanks, Maporsche.

Welcome to A2K. Hope you stick around and contribute to the threads.

Thank you, and I plan too.

Some of the most interesting discussion on the web, based on what I've read so far.

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existence of God

Quote:

As respectfully as possible...I think you are both kidding yourselves.

There is no evidence FOR THE EXISTENCE OF A GOD...that cannot be easily otherwise explained...or, in fact, used as evidence AGAINST THE EXISTENCE OF GODS.

Conversely, there is no evidence AGAINST THE EXISTENCE OF GODS...that cannot be easily otherwise explained...or, in fact, used as evidence FOR THE EXISTENCE OF A GOD.

I know I do not know either way...and I know I do not have enough evidence upon which to base a reasonable, meaningful guess.

I think theists and atheists simply guess...wild blind guessing.

Frank
I appreciate your effort to be respectful. thank you
I will not insult you by saying you must believe this or that. I will simply point to some examples of the evidence that lead me to believe.
detracters used to say that there was no archaeological evidence for a Jewish King named David or a Roman Governor named Pilate. It was often said that David was only a fictional embodiment of several other kings. Then an inscription was found in Syria referring to him. If the biblical writers had simply made up a story, it would seem more likely that they would have picked a different king. They would have picked someone whose name was all over to be the greatest of the Jewish Kings.
Pilate case is very similar. A brick was discovered fairly recently with the name Pilate.
Also convincing to me are the lives and deaths of the apostles. They were willing to give their lives because they believed in something. I know that modern Muslims are also willing to give their lives for their faith and I obviously believe that muslims are mistaken. But there are important differences. The apostles did not grow up believing Jesus was their messiah. They expected a more earthly power. The fact that they were willing to give their lives for a new type of worship is compelling. Muslims on the other hand grow up being told of Mohammed. Their faith is less compelling because it is not a departure from what they grew up believing. Also the apostles gave their lives in submission to violent brutality. They did not try to conquer the world to gain power and as a result suffer death. They suffered death and thereby conquered the world. Not a good plan if they had falsified their accts of Jesus. Mohammed by contrast, forced people to accept Allah or die. So it can be argued that they first sought power and used religion to gain it.
Again these are just some of my reasons. I hope you do come to know God someday. But if so it will likely be due to some other evidence.
Goodnight and God bless you Frank
dadothree

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dadothree wrote:

I will simply point to some examples of the evidence that lead me to believe.

Okay...this is the best way to go.

As you noted, I mentioned that I think both theists and atheists are kidding themselves when they say they have evidence for (or against) the existence of gods.

Quote:

detracters used to say that there was no archaeological evidence for a Jewish King named David or a Roman Governor named Pilate. It was often said that David was only a fictional embodiment of several other kings. Then an inscription was found in Syria referring to him. If the biblical writers had simply made up a story, it would seem more likely that they would have picked a different king. They would have picked someone whose name was all over to be the greatest of the Jewish Kings. ilate case is very similar. A brick was discovered fairly recently with the name Pilate.

Well so far...you have shown no evidence whatever for the existence of any gods. The historical data in almost any piece of fiction is hardly evidence that it is non-fiction. All of the people mentioned in the Bible could be real people...or based on real people...and it would provide no evidence of any gods.

Quote:

Also convincing to me are the lives and deaths of the apostles. They were willing to give their lives because they believed in something.

When the time came to "give up their lives"...in other words, share in the fate of Jesus...they fled. They didn't give up their lives.

If you are talking metaphorically...using "giving up their lives" meaning "they devoted themselves to a cause"...

...even if that were granted, that would not be proof of the existence of gods. People throughout history have been willing to fight and die for causes (often in the name of mythological gods).

Quote:

I know that modern Muslims are also willing to give their lives for their faith and I obviously believe that muslims are mistaken. But there are important differences. The apostles did not grow up believing Jesus was their messiah. They expected a more earthly power. The fact that they were willing to give their lives for a new type of worship is compelling.

It may be compelling...but it is not even remotely evidence that there are gods.

Quote:

Muslims on the other hand grow up being told of Mohammed. Their faith is less compelling because it is not a departure from what they grew up believing. Also the apostles gave their lives in submission to violent brutality. They did not try to conquer the world to gain power and as a result suffer death. They suffered death and thereby conquered the world. Not a good plan if they had falsified their accts of Jesus.

First of all...where are you getting the information that the apostles submitted their lives to violent brutality? With the exception of Peter...I don't know that any of this stuff rings very true.

And even if some did die because of what they "believed"...does that make it true???

Even you acknowledge that terrorists (and Kamikaze's) submit to death in furtherance of what they suppose is true. Are you prepared to argue that the many Kamikaze pilots deaths PROVE the emeror of Japan is a God?

Quote:

Mohammed by contrast, forced people to accept Allah or die. So it can be argued that they first sought power and used religion to gain it.
Again these are just some of my reasons. I hope you do come to know God someday. But if so it will likely be due to some other evidence.

No...I do not think any of this comes even close to evidence that there is a God...and quite frankly, I don't see how you do either.

Let's start at the beginning and talk about any evidence you have to support what you wrote:

Quote:

How do I know that there is a God? I look at the evidence. When I weigh the evidence for or against, I am convinced that there is a God.

Quote:

Goodnight and God bless you Frank

I thank you for that, Dadothree. I understand you mean it in a very nice way....and I appreciate it.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

sunlover wrote:
.

This "God" you keep mentioning, Sunlover...how do you know it exists?

Or is it that you DO NOT know...and are just typing words?

"It?" God is an "It?" I would say that God is a "process." People have been asking for "proof" of God since time forever. We can be the proof, the evidence just by how we live, what we accomplish. Nobody can give anybody else what they may think is "proof" there's God except to tell their own story. Somehow, I just don't think that's going to happen here. Nope, don't see any great inventors, creators typing a few lines to describe life-changing experiences.

Happy New Year
Sunlover

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sunlover wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
sunlover wrote:
.

This "God" you keep mentioning, Sunlover...how do you know it exists?

Or is it that you DO NOT know...and are just typing words?

"It?" God is an "It?" I would say that God is a "process."

Oh really!

And I am supposed not to use "It" in favor of "process" because of your guess?

Why would I do that?

Quote:

People have been asking for "proof" of God since time forever.

Perhaps they have...but I haven't.

So why are you bringing this up to me?

Quote:

We can be the proof, the evidence just by how we live, what we accomplish. Nobody can give anybody else what they may think is "proof" there's God except to tell their own story. Somehow, I just don't think that's going to happen here. Nope, don't see any great inventors, creators typing a few lines to describe life-changing experiences.

Whatever!

But this sounds like mumbo jumbo to me.

Quote:

Happy New Year
Sunlover

Back at ya, Sunlover. I hope 2005 is a terrific one for you. For all of the A2Kers.

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I know its been a while, but I couldnt help jumping in on this one.
What kind of proof are we looking for in this conversation? Are we trying to disprove the idea of God --or just the Christian/Hebrew god?
We also need to narrow down and talk about one thing at a time. Are you looking for physical, historical, epistemological, or philosophical proof that God exists?
While I ponder this, can someone please prove to me that God doesn't exist? As a theist I am constantly asked to prove that God exists. But, I dont think this is the kind of crowd for that question, I think we all agree that there is a chance something exists out there... well, except the agnostics who don't pick sides. haha. (ok, so that wasnt funny...)
Also, if you are an agnostic, and since as an agnostic you havent made a decision but will always argue against the idea of a higher deity, please prove to me why you believe there might be a God.
Seriously, I really want to know.

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rmurphy wrote:

I know its been a while, but I couldnt help jumping in on this one.
What kind of proof are we looking for in this conversation? Are we trying to disprove the idea of God --or just the Christian/Hebrew god?

I can't speak for everyone in this thread...but I am not asking for proof of anything.

A couple of people have asserted that they have evaluated the evidence for or against the existence of (some god or another)...and I am asking what that evidence is.

Personally...as I have now mentioned twice...I don't think there is any reasonable, unambiguous evidence pointing in either direction.

Quote:

We also need to narrow down and talk about one thing at a time. Are you looking for physical, historical, epistemological, or philosophical proof that God exists?

As I said, I'm not looking for proof...I'm looking for the evidence that causes anyone to suggest it is more likely "there is a God" over "there are no gods"....or to suggest it is more likely "there are no gods" over "there is a God."

Quote:

While I ponder this, can someone please prove to me that God doesn't exist? As a theist I am constantly asked to prove that God exists. But, I dont think this is the kind of crowd for that question, I think we all agree that there is a chance something exists out there...

There is a chance there is a God....there is a chance there are no gods.

That doesn't say anything.

Quote:

...well, except the agnostics who don't pick sides. haha. (ok, so that wasnt funny...)

No...and it didn't make any sense either. I am an agnostic...and I will readily acknowledge that there may be a God...or that there may be no gods.

I also assert that I do not see enough evidence to "pick a side."

If you want me to toss a coin...I will do it....but that doesn't make much sense either.

Right?

Quote:

Also, if you are an agnostic...

No "if" about it...I am definitely an agnostic.

Quote:

... and since as an agnostic you havent made a decision but will always argue against the idea of a higher deity...

Where on earth do you get this stuff from? Do you make it up as you go along...or what?

Why are you supposing that I ever argue against the idea of a "higher deity"...let alone, that I "always" do so.

I don't.

I DO NOT KNOW IF THERE IS A GOD...I DO NOT KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO GODS...AND I DO NOT SEE ENOUGH UNAMBIGUOUS EVIDENCE UPON WHICH TO BASE A GUESS IN EITHER DIRECTION.

I am VERY consistent on that.

Quote:

...please prove to me why you believe there might be a God.

I won't ask you for proof in this area...and I ask that you not ask me for proof.

There is no way that I do any "believing"...and certainly, there is no way I "believe" there might be a God.

I KNOW that there might be a God.

Quote:

Seriously, I really want to know.

Hey...I am happy you are here...and I would love to discuss this with you for as long as you want. I love doing that.

Please excuse the fact that I sometimes state my position with a certain amount of fervor, Murphy. I mean no disrespect with my passion.

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existence of God
Frank
I guess one of the most persuasive things to me is the inerrancy of the bible. People keep saying that this or that was proven wrong only to later have their assertion proven wrong instead. I know that their are scholars who disagree with this. The discovery channel seem to really favor the most radical ones. But even a novice like me can see through their misinterpretations.
The prophecies of the old testament which were fulfilled and the wisdom of the proverbs also convince me.
I know this may not sway everyone or anyone. I trust that you recognize that my inability should not be used as evidence against his existence. I am sorry that I have not been more effective. Not because I want to prove myself right, but because I think knowing God is an incredible blessing. I'll continue to hope that you discover him someday. Until that time please keep my apology in the back of your mind, as it will mean more to you then.
May God bless you and all.
dadothree

Ps You might try Lee Strobels books The case for Christ, and the case for God.

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I appreciate your blessings, Dadothree...but respectfully as possible, I think you are dealing with superstition.

You mentioned prophecies.

The so-called prophecies have been thoroughly debunked over the years.

Thomas Paine did an excellent job in two essays...links to which I provide.

Take a look at them.

http://www.deism.com/paine_essay03.htm

http://www.deism.com/paine_essay04.htm

I wish you well.

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Quote:

I can't speak for everyone in this thread...but I am not asking for proof of anything.

Frank (on an earlier posting)

Quote:

Well so far...you have shown no evidence whatever for the existence of any gods.

This is what led me to believe the conversation was about proof.

I said

Quote:

We also need to narrow down and talk about one thing at a time. Are you looking for physical, historical, epistemological, or philosophical proof that God exists?

This was not to argue with discussions already in place but rather see if we could discuss from a narrow perspective.

Frank

Quote:

No...and it didn't make any sense either.

Sorry, I guess what I said came out wrong, I was only stating that from my perspective I (as well as other theist and atheists) am different from agnostics in that I came to a conclusion in whether we believe in God or not.

Frank

Quote:

...well, except the agnostics who don't pick sides. haha. (ok, so that wasnt funny...)

No...and it didn't make any sense either. I am an agnostic...and I will readily acknowledge that there may be a God...or that there may be no gods.

I also assert that I do not see enough evidence to "pick a side."

Maybe I wasn't wrong

Frank

Quote:

Where on earth do you get this stuff from? Do you make it up as you go along...or what?

First off, no. What I mean by what I said is that over and over you state that you dont know if there is or isnt. I should have worded this as "As an agnostic you havent sided one way or another."

I said

Quote:

...please prove to me why you believe there might be a God.

What I meant by this is purely, I would like to see an atheist argue the points that seperate he/she from atheists. That is all I meant. I am simply interested in why you arent an atheist.

Also, I respect a passionate person. I took nothing personally. To be honest, I sometimes (or more than that) say things without thinking it through, or without really explaining. I appreciate you calling me on it.

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Stick around, Murph.

We got a long way to go yet...although this particular thread may run out before anything gets resolved.

You will hear me state my agnosticism over and over again in these threads. It is not a fence-sitting position...and it is rock solid.

Quote:

What I meant by this is purely, I would like to see an atheist argue the points that seperate he/she from atheists. That is all I meant. I am simply interested in why you arent an atheist.

I suspect you meant to write "...see an agnostic argue the points that separate him from an atheist."

Well...I gave them...but let me reiterate:

Insofar as a theist claims to know there is a God...or an atheist claims to know there are no gods...my difference with both is that I do not know either way.

Frankly, when a theist or an atheist asserts he/she KNOWS what the REALITY is with regard to the issue...I mostly just laugh and walk away. EVERY indication is that they do NOT KNOW.

Insofar as a theist claims to believe (which is to say, guesses) there is a God...or an atheist claims to believe (which is to say, guesses) there are no gods...my difference with both is that I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess...AND I SUSPECT neither do either of them.

Now...that should be a clear differentiation between my agnosticism...and theism AND ATHEISM.

If you still have any questions...do ask. I will discuss this with anyone...and for as long as he/she wants.

Edited to correct two minor errors...which are now in bold.

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