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Got a bible? Grab it and look at this.

 
 
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 01:49 pm
Leviticus 20:13. What is your interpretation? Here is a little excerpt that I thought was sort of ridiculous and will make you think twice before you order a steak medium-rare. Leviticus 17:10. These are worth looking up so give it a try and tell me what you think. Maybe a good discussion will come out of this.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 12,794 • Replies: 230
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 02:08 pm
My Leviticus 20:13 is sponsered by 'Fit Forever':

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh3.htm

Incidentally, where is your excerpt beyond a scripture reference? If you read the entire thing, it's a metaphor for Jewish divorce. Laughing
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 02:10 pm
What is to interpret in Leviticus 20:13?

The barbaric god of the Bible tells anyone willing to listen to its nonsense that it is so offended by a particular act...that anyone engaging in that act ought to be stoned to death!


The god of the Bible is very big into ordering the death of people doing things that offend it...and damn near everything that humans do (other than kissing the god's ass) offends it.
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CarbonSystem
 
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Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 02:33 pm
I thought the part about eating red meat is especially ridiculous. My question about the bible is this, who was given the power to write the words that are now reveered as holy? We have no idea now who wrote them. They can be wild exaggerations and sometimes even totally false, and yet some people take the messages literally.
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rufio
 
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Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 03:51 pm
False compared to what? What would you consider to be a "true" bible, if this one is so unreliable? If you don't think the bible is "real," than there's nothing anyone can do to convince you otherwise, so go find something you think is.
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dauer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 03:55 pm
I think you misunderstand blood being forbidden. The slaughterer kills the animal in such a way that much of the blood is spilled. This blood used to be buried symbolically, or covered with earth just as one buries a human body, but I have been told this is no longer done because pagans were doing this as part of worship of other gods.

After, the animal is cut up and some veins are removed. Then kosher salt is used to drain out the blood. If it is a type of blood that moves, it is inedible. But if it is stationary in the animal, it is no different from meat and is edible. This isn't a law for health reasons. It is honoring the life of the animal. That is why it says that the life is in the blood.
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squinney
 
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Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 04:00 pm
Thanks for the link, Cav. (I too can lose weight, trim my tummy while reading the Bible!)

Anyways, what I liked was at the bottom of the page:

Death is sometimes required by the Hebrew Scriptures as the punishment for ritual transgressions. These included the worshiping of other Gods, gathering sticks on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36), improper eating of ritual offerings (Numbers 18:32), ineligible persons acting as priests (Num 3:10). Over the last few centuries, most Christians and Jews have rejected Leviticus 20:13. They no longer call on the death penalty for homosexuals. Only Christian Reconstructionists and a few Christian hate groups wish to revert to mass executions of gays and lesbians today.


Gee, if I'm gonna have to die I'd rather it be for having had sex with another woman than for gathering sticks!!! Laughing
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ww
 
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Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 02:14 pm
God says what he means and means what he says.

The Old Covenant, a covenant of Law, was fulfilled when Jesus bore our sins upon the cross and died.

The Law was given that man would know he is a sinner. Under the Old Covenant sin was punishable.

We are now living under a New Covenant, a covenant of Grace.

So here I go...

Is homosexuality wrong in the sight of God? Yes! It was when he created the universe and still is today. The act is a sin, but the price of that sin has been paid for by Jesus on the cross. Therefore God is not going to strike you down where you stand, God will not tell his faithful followers to stone you. Why? Because God so loved the world that he gave a New covenant, a new Law. The old law still applies, but the penalty has already been paid, but only IF the sinner accepts Jesus as their saviour.

If people do not accept Jesus, the Christ, as their personal saviour, when their mortal bodies die, their immortal Souls will be separated from God for eternity.

God says what he means, and means what he says. And he loves us so much that he gave.

ww
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sobriquet
 
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Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 04:04 am
i don't see any logic in that. the man who accepts jesus as his savior and kills 50 in his name is pardoned of his sins.

the agnostic who lived a life of virtue but decided one day to gather some sticks on sabbath is banished to hell.

extremes? yes. but this is a perfect god you're talking about, and these things shouldn't happen.

God is the father who gave his children the loaded gun of free will.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 06:59 am
ww wrote:
God says what he means and means what he says.

The Old Covenant, a covenant of Law, was fulfilled when Jesus bore our sins upon the cross and died.


According to Paul...but not according to Jesus.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE." Matthew 5: 17ff

So I guess the question reduces to: Whom do you trust on this issue...Paul or Jesus?


Quote:
Is homosexuality wrong in the sight of God? Yes! It was when he created the universe and still is today. The act is a sin, but the price of that sin has been paid for by Jesus on the cross. Therefore God is not going to strike you down where you stand, God will not tell his faithful followers to stone you. Why? Because God so loved the world that he gave a New covenant, a new Law. The old law still applies, but the penalty has already been paid, but only IF the sinner accepts Jesus as their saviour.


Okay...but you are saying that the GOD that made the hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy...and the hundreds of billions of galaxies that we know about...

...is so offended by the act of homosexuality...that he prescribed death by stoning for the offense.

It may or may not be correct to assume the God no longer demands "death"...but if a homosexual were to die during sexual play...he would be punished in a way that is much, much, much more terrifying than death! He would be denied Heaven -- and, depending on how you see things, possibly subjected to excruciating, unrelenting torture throughout all the rest of eternity.

No matter how much lipstick you put on this pig, ww, it is still gonna be a pig.


Quote:
If people do not accept Jesus, the Christ, as their personal saviour, when their mortal bodies die, their immortal Souls will be separated from God for eternity.

God says what he means, and means what he says. And he loves us so much that he gave.


So you agree that the god still exacts a rather high price (eternal punishment) for the act...in fact, a price much higher than the one you argued against.

And as for this "..he so love the world that he..." thing...

...I think John 3:16 is one of the most disgusting passages in the Bible...and I am surprised so many of you Christians quote it as often as you do.

Essentially, John 3:16 reduces to:

I am God...I am offended by many things you humans do. I can easily forgive you those things...(or simply stop being offended by so damn much)...but I will not do so until you first torture and kill my son.

Just what do you see about that passage that you find so edifying?

It is barbaric!
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ww
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 08:38 pm
Frank,

Do you believe in God the Father, maker of heaven and earth?

ww
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 08:43 pm
Why is it that in Christianity... it's all about the Father... and nothing about the Mother? That seems so unnatural to me.
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Isha
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 11:48 pm
Frank, I really like your sense of humor and your boldness. I'm that way too. Just say it.

Though I no longer share your views because I did accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I have to say that seeing things from your point of view makes some sense to me.

I used to hate Chritianity and loathed Christians, but still, I didn't quite look at so many of those
bible verses the way you do.

Quite illuminating...I can see it.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 04:31 am
ww wrote:
Frank,

Do you believe in God the Father, maker of heaven and earth?

ww


I am an agnostic...and I do not do this thing you call "believing."

In my opinion, people mostly use the words "believe" and "belief" to disguise the fact that they are offering a guess about the unknown.


As for Ultimate Questions...well...

Is there a God?

I do not know!

If there is a God...what is that God like?

I do not know!

If there is a God...does the God have any expectations of me...and if YES, what are those expectations?

I do not know!


And there is not nearly enough unambiguous evidence to point me toward an answer to any of these questions.
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Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 04:33 am
Isha wrote:
Frank, I really like your sense of humor and your boldness. I'm that way too. Just say it.

Though I no longer share your views because I did accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I have to say that seeing things from your point of view makes some sense to me.

I used to hate Chritianity and loathed Christians, but still, I didn't quite look at so many of those
bible verses the way you do.

Quite illuminating...I can see it.


Thank you, Isha.

Stick around. There's lots more to come.

:wink:
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ww
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 07:12 pm
Rom 1:19-20

I believe in that I know to be true, and not only believe, I also have faith in.

ww
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 07:59 pm
ww wrote:
Rom 1:19-20

I believe in that I know to be true, and not only believe, I also have faith in.

ww





Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy.



Jerry Livingston
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Isha
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 08:51 pm
Hi WW
I still beleive and still have faith and nothing will change that. I've gone thru too many horrible things in my life and only God got me thru it, but I can see where Frank is coming from.
Frank has obviously read the bible because he quotes it well and I respect his opinion.
It's just that we see it differently, kind of like the glass with water, half empty, half full.

I discussed this forum with my mom, and even she admitted that yeah, looking at it from Frank's and many other's point of view, it does look ugly and dismall........but.........I still see something beautiful in it....
One of my favorite verses is:
(and I know I might get some flak...flack..flake..?...whatever... for it)
Heb. 13:5
I will never fail you. I will never forsake you.

Yes..Yes....I know guys...Jesus screamed on the cross:
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me"?!

I've heard different teachings on that, and so far it made sense to me...enough said.

So......like I said, because of some devastating things that I went thru, and outcomes to things that should have been tragic, but weren't because God answered my anguished cries....I will never stop beleiving.

And no...not ALL my prayers have been answered...yet... Laughing
I still haven't won the lottery, I still can't seem to loose those last 10 lbs,
I want a dark, silver hummer....but seriously....there still are some things that only a miracle could cure...I'll continue praying. Rolling Eyes :wink:
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 06:08 am
Isha wrote:
Hi WW
I still beleive and still have faith and nothing will change that. I've gone thru too many horrible things in my life and only God got me thru it, but I can see where Frank is coming from.
Frank has obviously read the bible because he quotes it well and I respect his opinion.
It's just that we see it differently, kind of like the glass with water, half empty, half full.

I discussed this forum with my mom, and even she admitted that yeah, looking at it from Frank's and many other's point of view, it does look ugly and dismall........but.........I still see something beautiful in it....
One of my favorite verses is:
(and I know I might get some flak...flack..flake..?...whatever... for it)
Heb. 13:5
I will never fail you. I will never forsake you.


Yes, Isha, the god of the Bible does indeed say, " I will never fail you. I will never forsake you."

And it is very instructive to see the context in which the god said those words.

You can read them in Deuteronomy 31:1-6.

You will see that the god is telling "his chosen people" that they can move into "the promised land" and they may destroy all the peoples and nations in their path...and that the god will help them with their carnage!

This god of the Bible is not a very pretty god!




Quote:
Yes..Yes....I know guys...Jesus screamed on the cross:
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me"?!

I've heard different teachings on that, and so far it made sense to me...enough said.

So......like I said, because of some devastating things that I went thru, and outcomes to things that should have been tragic, but weren't because God answered my anguished cries....I will never stop beleiving.


If you are comforted in your religion...live with it...and I think I can speak for most of us in saying that we wish you nothing but the best.

But if you come to an Internet forum to discuss these things...you will hear some things that you probably should avoid if you think you will be less comfortable if you question the god.

Because hear them you will!
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Isha
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 10:19 am
Yes, I agree...I will hear things I may not like, but I"m a strong girl, and I'm willing to hear them.
Must tell you, I'm going to start researching the bible again and start writing down some of these things that do make some good questions.
You've made some valid points and now I must seek answers.....I'm also going to turn it into a discussion with some of my friends that are beleivers and non believers at work....I want to see what answers they can come up with.
Now I must go....to work.....I'll bring up these questions in between flights.
I'll get back 9 1/2 hours from now.
Ciao,
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