Paul Johnson: Quite simply, Kerry must be stopped

Dookiestix wrote:

Stupidity and denial run hand in hand it would seem.

As you keep demonstrating... :wink:

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Cheap shots do not sit well with reasoned argument, backed up by facts.

Is it my imagination, or do the dark forces of the Right seem a bit more rattled than previously, a little less arrogant and smug, a bit more desperate?

No, I don't think it is.

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McTag wrote:

Cheap shots do not sit well with reasoned argument, backed up by facts.

Is it my imagination, or do the dark forces of the Right seem a bit more rattled than previously, a little less arrogant and smug, a bit more desperate?

No, I don't think it is.

It definitely is not your imagination, McTag!

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McTag wrote:

Cheap shots do not sit well with reasoned argument, backed up by facts.

I think your point rests uncomfortably on the question of just which of the preceeding three posts was the cheap shot, and which was the deserved response.

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Well that's fair comment, George. I always agree with anyone who makes a good point, unless they are Ican or McG.....not that that gets tested very often. :wink:

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georgeob1 wrote:

blatham wrote:
george
Are you joking? What in god's name are you reading? If you want to answer your own question about what Brits are thinking about the madness presently masquerading as American politics, here's three links for you.
...
ps...there is no country...NO COUNTRY...where the citizens approve of this present American administration except Israel.

The world is a very fickle place, and one in a position of power and responsibility cannot expect to be loved as a result. Attempts to curry favor usually lead to disaster. (I saw in another post that Litchenstein and Niger favored us, so perhaps there is hope.)

Cast your mind back several months to the open letter from some thirty or fifty Brit diplomats who described how the Bush administration had done serious damage to peace in the middle east. I think you may have called them 'bureaucrats'. You granted their expertise and experience no credence. Who you trust seems clearly dependent upon what they say, and not else.

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blatham wrote:

Cast your mind back several months to the open letter from some thirty or fifty Brit diplomats who described how the Bush administration had done serious damage to peace in the middle east. I think you may have called them 'bureaucrats'. You granted their expertise and experience no credence. Who you trust seems clearly dependent upon what they say, and not else.

I don't recall the details, but don't dispute the observation. It is true, I am a bit selective in who or what I rely on for accuracy in reporting facts and in interpreting them. Often this does lead me to overvalue those with whom I agree, and ignore or discount contrary views or even facts.

There - I feel better already.

I think the possibility of peace in the Middle East was lost in stages, beginning in 1916 (Balfour); 1919 (Versailles & promises to Hussein); 1920 (betrayal of both Arabs and Jews by the Allies); and continuing through 1925 (early conflicts); 1943 (Holicaust); 1945 (European indifference to "displaced persons" = Jews); 1948 (war);; 1956(war), 1967(war and the ill-advised Israeli occupation of the West Bank); 1973 (war); right up to the present.

Perhaps, in the view of some, irreparable damage has been done recently. However if these notable experts truly thought there were real possibilities in 2000, using the modalities then in use, then I am inclined to seriously doubt the quality of their insights and judgements. More likely they are merely indignant at some changes that have disturbed their worlds.

Frankly the direct support of a two state solution and pressures for a responsible Palestinian government offer more hope of incremental improvement than all of the hopeful breakthroughs of the past -- in my opinion.

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The Israel/Palestine problem isn't one I'd be able to solve. But I'm pleased to see that confession yet stirs the souls of you Irish.

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Glad to see that you have descended from the lofty heights of indignation to the green, but contradiction-filled valley below. The air is not so thin down here.

You are right about the virtues of confession. It was the resolution-to-never-do -it-again part that gave me all the trouble.

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There's only one reasonable way the basic middle eastern problem can be resolved. The muslim world has to be forced to find a place to put the palestinians, at least 500 miles from Israel. There's simply no reasonable way anybody could ask the Israelis to accept them as neighbors at this stage of the game.

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Quote:

The muslim world has to be forced to find a place to put the palestinians, at least 500 miles from Israel.

I think that's virtually impossible, as the Arab population in Israel has exploded and will soon force the Jewish population into a minority.

Here's the transcript from last night's broadcast between "David Makovsky, a senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy who was previously with the Jerusalem Post and the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, and Hisham Melhem, Washington correspondent for the Beirut newspaper As-Safir and host of a weekly program on the Arab news channel al-Arabiya."

A must read regarding this topic (IMO).

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec04/gaza_10-26.html

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Thanks, that's interesting, but there's one little questino which does not seem to be getting asked anywhere in the picture, which is what the muslims living in the Gaza strip are going to do for a living after Israel seals the place off.

The obvious answer to me seems to be that either they all starve, or the UN and muslim charities support them in situ, or they move them someplace where they come closer to being wanted and have some chance of supporting themselves. The third choice seems manifestly better than the other two and, if nothing else, less expensive.

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Much can change as well, as Arafat may be on his last leg:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6329315/

Further loss of an central authority will only cause further civil strife. Although arabs will still work in Israel, I doubt they will be completely cut off. Allowing the Palestinian region to further suffer economic strife thanks to Israel's purging of arab workers will only intensify the Intifada (IMO), and create even more chaos in the region. But then again, "how can the World Bank work in Gaza if there's no authority that is recognized as legitimate?" Let alone determined who it might be.

It will be a challenge regardless of the outcome.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Glad to see that you have descended from the lofty heights of indignation to the green, but contradiction-filled valley below. The air is not so thin down here.

You are right about the virtues of confession. It was the resolution-to-never-do -it-again part that gave me all the trouble.

This lull is temporary. As grandad said to grandma on their wedding night, "Brace yerself, Olga"

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gungasnake wrote:

There's only one reasonable way the basic middle eastern problem can be resolved. The muslim world has to be forced to find a place to put the palestinians, at least 500 miles from Israel. There's simply no reasonable way anybody could ask the Israelis to accept them as neighbors at this stage of the game.

Well, no. That's not going to happen.

However, thank you for posting Paul Johnson. He is a great man. He also has the history of the world under his belt. And therefore, he is also a great authority. Which gives his condemnation of Kerry great factual and philosophical weight.
I would also suggest Bernard Lewis.

In the meantime, the Palestinian problem will be solved when they all (Arabs; Islamic fascists; death cultists; etc.) simply give up or die. After their sick philosophy and sorry way of life has been beaten to the dust, the remnants will come out of their caves and seek peace.
And, the Israelis will be more than happy to forgive and forget.
Except maybe the minority nutballs. Sigh. They will end up being arrested or killed too. Sigh.
I give the Arab/Islamic fascists about four more years, maybe six or eight, before they totally cave.
Because, what they don't realize is that after Bush slams their asses for four more years, Hilary is going to follow right on through. Talk about Thatcher being the Iron Lady, we ain't seen nothin' yet.
Laughing

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gungasnake wrote:

There's only one reasonable way the basic middle eastern problem can be resolved. The muslim world has to be forced to find a place to put the palestinians, at least 500 miles from Israel. There's simply no reasonable way anybody could ask the Israelis to accept them as neighbors at this stage of the game.

Poor buggers, they are pawns in everyone else's game. They have had their land and posessions stolen, and they are murdered daily by Israeli military might, backed by American money and supplies.

However they have been left in camps by the wider arab world, instead of being helped, dispersed and assimilated.

Your are right in this sense, this does not make them disposed to be good neighbours. The rest of your post does not warrant a reply.

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I see that since abuzz has died, the supercons have needed to find another site to infest, and turn to sh!t like everything else they touch.

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gungasnake wrote:

There's only one reasonable way the basic middle eastern problem can be resolved. The muslim world has to be forced to find a place to put the palestinians, at least 500 miles from Israel. There's simply no reasonable way anybody could ask the Israelis to accept them as neighbors at this stage of the game.

Well, nonetheless they ARE neighbours - and there's an end to it - smokedreams notwithstanding.

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Dookiestix wrote:

I think that's virtually impossible, as the Arab population in Israel has exploded and will soon force the Jewish population into a minority.

A rarity, but I agree with Dookie here. The statement is certainly true if one includes the West Bank in Israel.

For a while Israelis held off the Palestinian demographic bomb with subsidised immigration of just about anyone who claimed to be Jewish from the former Soviet Union. That has ended and the terror campaign has choked off any further immigration, giving the Palestinians a substantial long-term demographic advantage.

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Wilso wrote:

I see that since abuzz has died, the supercons have needed to find another site to infest, and turn to sh!t like everything else they touch.

Now there's a nice, enlightening, rational contribution to the shared dialogue here. Good to see a contributor adding so much of himself to the conversation.

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Paul Johnson: Quite simply, Kerry must be stopped

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