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Paul Johnson: Quite simply, Kerry must be stopped

 
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 07:44 am
George and McTag - having just returned from a business trip to the Middle East and Europe may have some additional perspective to the points you make:

1. The Brits were driven out of the chaos that was Iraq in the early 20th century following an alliance between Shia and Sunni Moslems - naturally they would be watching for a similar formation now.

2. The collapse of the Ottoman Empire dates at least to the early 19th century with uprisings from the Balkans to latter-day Saudi Arabia, continuing with the Crimean War, and only papered over in the 1918 date mentioned by George. One important effect of the Treaty of Versailles, btw, making the straits of Marmara international waters (key to Russian interests for access to warm water ports) is the ultimate reason why Turkey cannot and will not be admitted to the EU - it has no contiguous land in Europe.

Finally: the Economist's endorsement of Kerry is so lukewarm - they call him incompetent - as to barely deserve mention. Besides, the Brits aren't voting on Tuesday <G>
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McTag
 
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Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 10:17 am
Awareness of history is always an advantage, but of course historical texts and perspectives vary a lot.

Discussion of history has not brought tangible advances in Ireland, Palestine or the Balkans. I doubt it will in Iraq.
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 10:42 am
But the only tangible advances that have occurred in Ireland and the Balkans have themselves been the result of concrete steps taken to address the fundamental historical issues. Without a right understanding of history and the fundamental issues, no such steps can be either identified or taken. I think you are making my point.

The "Peace Process" in Israel/Palestine has failed consistently and precisely because the fundamental issues have never been addressed. Notwithstanding the Zionist propaganda, there IS a Palestine, and there ARE people who have lived there in an organized, civilized manner for centuries. On the other hand, no serious claim to self-government by these people can be entertained until they organize some real governmental apparatus, with some features beyond mere murder and terrorism. A one-state solution embracing both peoples with justice and mutual tolerance would be best. Given that the historical opportunity for such a solution has, so far, been wasted, a two-state solution may be the best that is attainable. Until recently I have seen little of constructive value on the parts of either Europe or the United States towards this now very old problem.

The evident contempt of many continental European states for Israel, and their eagerness to accomodate the Islamist distemper - both things they did so much to create - betrays a truly malignant failure to understand their own histories - or perhaps a desire to forget them.
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Einherjar
 
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Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 11:55 am
georgeob1 wrote:
The "Peace Process" in Israel/Palestine has failed consistently and precisely because the fundamental issues have never been addressed.


I agree

Quote:
Notwithstanding the Zionist propaganda, there IS a Palestine, and there ARE people who have lived there in an organized, civilized manner for centuries.


Correct

Quote:
On the other hand, no serious claim to self-government by these people can be entertained until they organize some real governmental apparatus, with some features beyond mere murder and terrorism.


They have as much of a government now as they will ever have until the occupation ends. They can easily make a claim to self government despite lacking an organised governmental structure.

Quote:
A one-state solution embracing both peoples with justice and mutual tolerance would be best.


Israeli's would never accept this, as they would then become a minority.

Quote:
Given that the historical opportunity for such a solution has, so far, been wasted, a two-state solution may be the best that is attainable. Until recently I have seen little of constructive value on the parts of either Europe or the United States towards this now very old problem.


Not much Europe can do is there, the US has the required leverage over the Israeli's to achive progress, but does not seem eager to use it.

Quote:
The evident contempt of many continental European states for Israel, and their eagerness to accomodate the Islamist distemper - both things they did so much to create - betrays a truly malignant failure to understand their own histories - or perhaps a desire to forget them.


How so?
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 12:09 pm
Good post George, although I disagree with some of the last bit.

Tempting though it is to further discuss the Israeli-Palestine question, I think here is not the place to do it, so I respectfully withdraw.
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