@perennialloner,
perennialloner wrote:You cannot constantly proclaim to be this great teller of facts when you always manipulate the truth.
An unfortunate nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that you have to simplify your posts to the bumper-sticker level if you want your claims to register. Simplifying an argument so that it is effective isn't quite the same as trying to manipulate the facts.
One example of this is the Palestinians' right to live in the region. While the Palestinians are not descended from Iron Age Israel, they are descended from the broader Bronze Age Canaanite population that also gave rise to Israel. I suspect the Palestinians' ancestors were one of the other Iron Age cultures to emerge from the Canaanites, like the Moabites or the Edomites. As such, the Palestinians clearly have some sort of indigenous rights.
But if some jerk is shouting bumper sticker slogans like "the Israelis are not from the West Bank region" my reply is usually a bumper sticker slogan like "the Israelis are indigenous to the West Bank and the Palestinians are from somewhere else". The need to be clear that the Palestinians are indigenous to a region very close to the West Bank comes a far-distant second to the need to be clear that the Israelis are indigenous to the West Bank.
perennialloner wrote:First, Palestinians are not exclusively Muslim. They are not defined by their religion.
I think the Palestinians
are defined by Islam.
I do realize that some Palestinians are Xian, but Xians tend to be second class citizens in Islamic societies. And I suspect that Palestinian Xians would be treated even worse if they were not seen as a useful propaganda weapon against western Xians.
perennialloner wrote:People lived on that land before Judaism was established. People lived on that land before the Jewish kingdoms. Obviously people lived on that land after the fall of those kingdoms. The people who lived there before Judaism was established are not irrelevant in any discussion of the population indigenous to the region. Not all the people in Canaan became Jewish and those people did not disappear once Jewish kings took control.
I think the Canaanites of the West Bank region all became Jewish.
Canaanites from neighboring areas became different Iron Age cultures, like the Edomites, Ammonites, and Moabites. One of these other Iron Age cultures is probably ancestral to the Palestinians.
perennialloner wrote:Jewish or polytheistic people of the time who converted to Christianity and Islam do not become removed from the area because they changed religion.
The Jews didn't convert to a different religion. They were forcibly expelled against their will.
perennialloner wrote:Sergio DellaPergola, an Israeli demographer, estimates that in the first century BCE the majority of people living in the region were Jewish. He excludes unaffiliated people in the region though I'm sure they existed. Between the first century and fifth century, the Romans had significant influence which led many people in the region, Jews and others, to convert to Christianity. DellaPergola estimates that by the fifth century, Christians were the majority in the region.
They didn't convert to Xianity. They were expelled against their will.
perennialloner wrote:These people who converted are still indigenous the region.
This isn't a case of conversions. These people who were expelled against their will are still indigenous to the region.
perennialloner wrote:DellaPergola estimates that Muslims became the majority by the twelfth century. As we all know, that did not change until the founding of the Israeli state.
The Muslims illegally invaded a country that was not doing them any harm. I reject any Islamic claim to this area.
perennialloner wrote:All of these people I've talked about, whether they converted or remained Jewish, can claim indigenous status.
I recognize the Palestinians as indigenous to a region neighboring the West Bank. As such I recognize their right to
peacefully have their own state based on 1967 borders. I do
not recognize the Palestinians' right to Jewish holy sites like the Temple Mount. And since the Palestinians are not being peaceful, I see no problem in suspending their rights until such time as they agree to be peaceful.
perennialloner wrote:It's not like the Muslims from the heart of Arabia came and completely wiped out the Semitic people already living there.
Close though. The Romans forcibly expelled the Jews. Then Muslims from the heart of Arabia came and took over without justification.
perennialloner wrote:Such a claim requires evidence that you don't have.
I don't?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Levant