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How much of Support for Israel is based on Biblical Mythology?

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 06:02 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
In this case, the accusation of anti-semitism for people arguing against the expansion of settlements is an unfounded ad-hominem. I will not that any of these argument can be disputed (Oralloy shows up quickly to dispute each one just on principle). But the point is that the arguments against the settlements are well founded in Western cultural values and international law (i.e. the Geneva Accords).

When the arguments are false accusations or are blatantly unfair, the accusation of anti-Semitism is very well founded.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 06:03 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Oralboy

Namecalling again.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 06:04 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
In my opinion, the settlements are designed to make a two-state solution impossible. That is certainly the aim of the Israeli right wing (and polls will tell you this). They do not want to cede any territory.

And I think the settlements will have exactly this result. As the settlements expand, Israel has more reason to not compromise.

The idea that "the only possible two-state solution is one that is based on 1967 borders" is a fallacy.

When the Palestinians are forced to have a state that is composed of Area A alone, that will be a two-state solution.


And no, it is not the settlements that make a two state solution based on 1967 borders impossible.

YOU, Max, have made such an outcome impossible with your outrageous denials of Israel's past peace offers.

Not you alone. But you along with every other person who outrageously denied the truth of Israel's past peace offers.

Shame on you for blaming the settlers for what YOU caused.
0 Replies
 
perennialloner
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 09:37 pm
Quote:
The notion that Muslims have any sort of legitimate claim to land that they steal from someone else is as preposterous as the idea that the Nazis had a legitimate claim to the artwork they looted.


I don't understand this. First, Palestinians are not exclusively Muslim. They are not defined by their religion. They are defined by their displacement from the land their families had lived on for generations. You cannot constantly proclaim to be this great teller of facts when you always manipulate the truth.

People lived on that land before Judaism was established. People lived on that land before the Jewish kingdoms. Obviously people lived on that land after the fall of those kingdoms. The people who lived there before Judaism was established are not irrelevant in any discussion of the population indigenous to the region. Not all the people in Canaan became Jewish and those people did not disappear once Jewish kings took control. I can accept that many Jewish people have roots in the area, but to say they are unequivocally the indigenous people does not make sense. Jewish or polytheistic people of the time who converted to Christianity and Islam do not become removed from the area because they changed religion.

Sergio DellaPergola, an Israeli demographer, estimates that in the first century BCE the majority of people living in the region were Jewish. He excludes unaffiliated people in the region though I'm sure they existed. Between the first century and fifth century, the Romans had significant influence which led many people in the region, Jews and others, to convert to Christianity. DellaPergola estimates that by the fifth century, Christians were the majority in the region.

These people who converted are still indigenous the region.

DellaPergola estimates that Muslims became the majority by the twelfth century. As we all know, that did not change until the founding of the Israeli state.

All of these people I've talked about, whether they converted or remained Jewish, can claim indigenous status.

It's not like the Muslims from the heart of Arabia came and completely wiped out the Semitic people already living there. Such a claim requires evidence that you don't have.

oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2017 11:40 pm
@perennialloner,
perennialloner wrote:
You cannot constantly proclaim to be this great teller of facts when you always manipulate the truth.

An unfortunate nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that you have to simplify your posts to the bumper-sticker level if you want your claims to register. Simplifying an argument so that it is effective isn't quite the same as trying to manipulate the facts.

One example of this is the Palestinians' right to live in the region. While the Palestinians are not descended from Iron Age Israel, they are descended from the broader Bronze Age Canaanite population that also gave rise to Israel. I suspect the Palestinians' ancestors were one of the other Iron Age cultures to emerge from the Canaanites, like the Moabites or the Edomites. As such, the Palestinians clearly have some sort of indigenous rights.

But if some jerk is shouting bumper sticker slogans like "the Israelis are not from the West Bank region" my reply is usually a bumper sticker slogan like "the Israelis are indigenous to the West Bank and the Palestinians are from somewhere else". The need to be clear that the Palestinians are indigenous to a region very close to the West Bank comes a far-distant second to the need to be clear that the Israelis are indigenous to the West Bank.


perennialloner wrote:
First, Palestinians are not exclusively Muslim. They are not defined by their religion.

I think the Palestinians are defined by Islam.

I do realize that some Palestinians are Xian, but Xians tend to be second class citizens in Islamic societies. And I suspect that Palestinian Xians would be treated even worse if they were not seen as a useful propaganda weapon against western Xians.


perennialloner wrote:
People lived on that land before Judaism was established. People lived on that land before the Jewish kingdoms. Obviously people lived on that land after the fall of those kingdoms. The people who lived there before Judaism was established are not irrelevant in any discussion of the population indigenous to the region. Not all the people in Canaan became Jewish and those people did not disappear once Jewish kings took control.

I think the Canaanites of the West Bank region all became Jewish.

Canaanites from neighboring areas became different Iron Age cultures, like the Edomites, Ammonites, and Moabites. One of these other Iron Age cultures is probably ancestral to the Palestinians.


perennialloner wrote:
Jewish or polytheistic people of the time who converted to Christianity and Islam do not become removed from the area because they changed religion.

The Jews didn't convert to a different religion. They were forcibly expelled against their will.


perennialloner wrote:
Sergio DellaPergola, an Israeli demographer, estimates that in the first century BCE the majority of people living in the region were Jewish. He excludes unaffiliated people in the region though I'm sure they existed. Between the first century and fifth century, the Romans had significant influence which led many people in the region, Jews and others, to convert to Christianity. DellaPergola estimates that by the fifth century, Christians were the majority in the region.

They didn't convert to Xianity. They were expelled against their will.


perennialloner wrote:
These people who converted are still indigenous the region.

This isn't a case of conversions. These people who were expelled against their will are still indigenous to the region.


perennialloner wrote:
DellaPergola estimates that Muslims became the majority by the twelfth century. As we all know, that did not change until the founding of the Israeli state.

The Muslims illegally invaded a country that was not doing them any harm. I reject any Islamic claim to this area.


perennialloner wrote:
All of these people I've talked about, whether they converted or remained Jewish, can claim indigenous status.

I recognize the Palestinians as indigenous to a region neighboring the West Bank. As such I recognize their right to peacefully have their own state based on 1967 borders. I do not recognize the Palestinians' right to Jewish holy sites like the Temple Mount. And since the Palestinians are not being peaceful, I see no problem in suspending their rights until such time as they agree to be peaceful.


perennialloner wrote:
It's not like the Muslims from the heart of Arabia came and completely wiped out the Semitic people already living there.

Close though. The Romans forcibly expelled the Jews. Then Muslims from the heart of Arabia came and took over without justification.


perennialloner wrote:
Such a claim requires evidence that you don't have.

I don't?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Levant
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2017 12:16 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I think the Palestinians are defined by Islam.

I do realize that some Palestinians are Xian, but Xians tend to be second class citizens in Islamic societies. And I suspect that Palestinian Xians would be treated even worse if they were not seen as a useful propaganda weapon against western Xians.
Why are you neglecting the Palestine Christians?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2017 01:22 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
oralloy wrote:
I think the Palestinians are defined by Islam.

I do realize that some Palestinians are Xian, but Xians tend to be second class citizens in Islamic societies. And I suspect that Palestinian Xians would be treated even worse if they were not seen as a useful propaganda weapon against western Xians.

Why are you neglecting the Palestine Christians?

How am I neglecting them? You just quoted me talking about them.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2017 07:25 am
@oralloy,
I wasn't familiar with that term (besides related to Chinese history, Chinese products ...) My bad.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2017 01:53 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
I think the Palestinians are defined by Islam.

I do realize that some Palestinians are Xian, but Xians tend to be second class citizens in Islamic societies. And I suspect that Palestinian Xians would be treated even worse if they were not seen as a useful propaganda weapon against western Xians.
Why are you neglecting the Palestine Christians?


I'm only guessing, but Christians of any nationality do know how to live peaceably with non-Christians.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2017 01:56 pm
@Foofie,
Nah Foof ugottabe kiddin'
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2017 02:00 pm
The title of this thread, in my opinion, presupposes that the bible is mythology. That is no more valid than saying that the Ten Commandments is what makes murder immoral. Murder is immoral for many reasons; support for Israel can be based on many reasons. This thread is based on the skewed premise of one argument, in my opinion. But, feed the false premise of this thread if that's what one likes to do. Without the Red Sox playing, the winter can be boring.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2017 02:15 pm
@Foofie,
Good'n' Foof, well put
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2017 03:11 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

The title of this thread, in my opinion, presupposes that the bible is mythology.


The fact is, the Bible IS mythology.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2017 03:13 pm
@Krumple,
Good'n' Krump, betcha shak'm up
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 02:38 am
@Foofie,
That presupposition is irrelevant to the point that some Christians and Jews DO evoke 'divine authority' for their support of Israel. The question is about the strength and possible manipulation of such support.
Joseph Keller was on the money in Catch 22 when he had the Chaplain praying for a 'tight bomb pattern'. Wink
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 02:57 am
@Foofie,
...it goes without saying that in this context the mythological status or otherwise of 'the bible' is inseparable from religious belief. Mere 'histories of occupation' are equivocal for both sides.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 03:07 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
The fact is, the Bible IS mythology.

Except for all the parts that have been confirmed by archaeology.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 03:30 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

...The Ashkenazim, from whom Zionism sprang, exhibit little genealogy originating from the Middle East let alone Palestine.


DNA analysis of Jewish male Ashkenazim finds a high percentage with Y (male) chromosomes from the middle east. A high percentage of the X (female) chromosomes comes from European indigenous (pagan) females. The theory is that early migrating Jews had sons marry out with the pagan women (not enough Jewish women in the small group of Jewish traders in the hinterland of pagan Europe).

You see, Jews are just a Hebrew/Gentile hybrid that practice the religion of the Hebrews. And, due to marrying within that gene pool, they inbred certain epigenetic traits, not to mention other regular genetic traits.

Please promulgate current research, rather than popular beliefs of the culture/society.

It is precisely the current research indicates that percentages of Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups originating in the Middle East exhibited by Ashkenazim is low, less than fifty percent. Add to that the high frequency of European mitochondrial DNA haplogroups exhibited by the Ashkenazim indicates a largely European origin of that Jewish demographic.

(See A MOSAIC OF PEOPLE: THE JEWISH STORY AND A REASSESSMENT OF THE DNA EVIDENCE

Ellen Levy-Coffman)

You're quoting the earlier, politically motivated research, and conflating "Middle Eastern" with "Hebrew" is a typical obfuscatory ploy.

Go peddle your prejudiced propaganda somewhere else.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 03:36 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
You're quoting the earlier, politically motivated research, and conflating "Middle Eastern" with "Hebrew" is a typical obfuscatory ploy.

Go peddle your prejudiced propaganda somewhere else.


But prejudiced propaganda is all he has.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2017 03:46 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
This is not true. At best, some of the Israelis trace their roots to the Middle East in general, not Palestine specifically. The Ashkenazim, from whom Zionism sprang, exhibit little genealogy originating from the Middle East let alone Palestine.

This simplistic position conflates Jewish nationalism with religious mythology, the idea that all Jews are from Palestine. One thing is the religion. Quite another thing is the people who follow that religion or have ancestors who did. The truth of the matter is that the Israeli Zionists originated from the countries that they inhabited before they emigrated to Palestine.

The fact that the Jews were forced from their homeland against their will does not in any way invalidate their claim to their homeland.

You're conflating Judeans with Jews. This simplistic idea obfuscates the truth of the matter that most Ashkenazim have origins in areas of the world other than the Middle East let alone Palestine.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Begging the question, however, the Palestinians have much more of a right to Palestine than people claiming ancient ancestry from there.

The notion that Muslims have any sort of legitimate claim to land that they steal from someone else is as preposterous as the idea that the Nazis had a legitimate claim to the artwork they looted.

The argument is that the Palestinians have legitimate claims to the land in which they originated. Your straw man argument is irrelevant.
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
This idea of a moral basis for accepting Israel's right to exist doesn't hold water, as it were.

The Jews have a right to live in their ancient homeland whether you like it or not.

Your assertion is merely opinion and does not negate the amorality of maxdancona's idea.

In other words, NUH-UH.
 

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