How much of Support for Israel is based on Biblical Mythology?

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Accusing people, of being anti-semitic simply because they criticize Israel's expansion of settlements is an ad hominem attack.

Not really. If the accuser didn't address the person's criticism and only resorted to the accusation, it would be. If the accuser can make an argument why it follows that the critic's position is anti-Semitic, that's something other than ad hominem.

You have accused people in this forum of being bigoted, based on what they have argued. Were you guilty of ad hominem?

[url]You posted two articles doing exactly that.[/url]

I did post two articles; without comment. Even if they are nothing but ad hominem how is that automatically imputed to me?

Quote:

For the record. I challenge ad hominem attacks when they come from my own side of the political spectrum. These types of attacks are not valid in an intellectual discussion.

I'll grant that you have, but not with pristine reliability. As referenced previously, you have made more than few accusations of bigotry yourself.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

In this case, the accusation of anti-semitism for people arguing against the expansion of settlements is an unfounded ad-hominem. I will not that any of these argument can be disputed (Oralloy shows up quickly to dispute each one just on principle). But the point is that the arguments against the settlements are well founded in Western cultural values and international law (i.e. the Geneva Accords).

There is nothing anti-semitic about opposing the actions of a militarily superior government against an ethnic minority.

I will also point out that it the left in the United States that has consistently fought for the rights of religious and ethnic minorities; including those of Jews. And Israel is not unique. We opposed Chile and Myanmar and South Africa. Countries that get US support tend to get more scrutiny.

If a person who defends the rights of ethnic minorities in the US still opposes the expansion of settlements in Israel... and there are many people who do just this, including Americans with a Jewish background... is it really right to call them antisemites?

If I have accused someone of bigotry who wasn't making an explicitly bigoted argument, please point it out to me and I will publically apologize. I try not to respond to arguments, not to people or issues. I am almost certain that I have never accused you, Finn, of bigotry. I know that I have accused some of Foofie's arguments as being bigoted, but that is because he was explicitly making the argument that some ethnic groups have more value than others.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

...The Ashkenazim, from whom Zionism sprang, exhibit little genealogy originating from the Middle East let alone Palestine.

DNA analysis of Jewish male Ashkenazim finds a high percentage with Y (male) chromosomes from the middle east. A high percentage of the X (female) chromosomes comes from European indigenous (pagan) females. The theory is that early migrating Jews had sons marry out with the pagan women (not enough Jewish women in the small group of Jewish traders in the hinterland of pagan Europe).

You see, Jews are just a Hebrew/Gentile hybrid that practice the religion of the Hebrews. And, due to marrying within that gene pool, they inbred certain epigenetic traits, not to mention other regular genetic traits.

Please promulgate current research, rather than popular beliefs of the culture/society.

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@maxdancona,

This thread is about you ducking the real issues. You're being inherently dishonest, reducing America's role in the ME to one of religious superstition. It's irrelevant, it may get a view votes domestically, but if there wasn't any oil there wouldn't be much support. If you just look at American support of Israel without taking the rest of the ME in to account you miss the point entirely.

Which is what you intended all along. You want to appear as the voice of reason and moderation, refusing to kowtow to all this superstitious nonsense and looking upon the Israel/Palestine conflict with a new spirit of enlightenment. It's all a load of patronising bollocks, and what's worse you've not even bothered to research the biblical stuff properly.

You can't engage with the real issues, you won't engage with the geopolitics, you don't have a clue. Btw, Oralboy has called all the Palestinian people vermin, whereas I have praised Israeli organisations like B'Tselem and Haaretz.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

...My hypothesis is that US domestic support for a hawkish policy on Israel stems largely fom Evangelical Christian religious ideas.

Which you then feel is reason enough to tell Israelis what to do with their country?

And, which you then feel is reason enough to tell American evangelical Christians that their beliefs are fallacies? Is it eithical to meddle in one people's religion, since you refrain from doing that with other faiths? Or, do you have opinions on other faiths? You just might be one holy guy?

I wonder if your humanistic universalist beliefs presuppose an objective morality that is above debate (aka, above reproach)?

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

You're being inherently dishonest.. . you miss the point entirely .... what you intended ...all this superstitious nonsense ... It's all a load of patronising bollocks... you've not even bothered to research the biblical stuff properly... You can't engage with the real issues, you won't engage with the geopolitics, you don't have a clue...

My point exactly.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

That's absolute nonsense, you refuse to see the situation in the ME for what it is. It's about securing America's interests, end of. That's why there's such a stink about Iran and why America is happy to sell state of the art weaponry to a country that does not allow women to drive.

You can't acknowledge that, you prefer living in a fantasy world where you're a bunch of white hatted do gooders. You're too scared to deal with reality which is why you accuse others of absolutism.

You can't even see the varying shades of political/religious/cultural difference throughout the ME which is why you retreat into your pseudo biblical bollocks, yet you accuse me of absolutism. Now that really is irony, you know, the quality you claim to enjoy, but have no understanding of.

The situation in the ME is way too complicated for someone with such ostrich reflexes. You don't understand it, nor do you possess the intellectual curiosity to try to understand it. In that you and Oralboy are exactly the same.

Btw, there's nothing remotely centrist or moderate about you. That's another fantasy.

In my opinion, you'll never get him to admit to any incorrect analysis.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

I don't think you are going to find common cause with Izzy, Foofie. Although this attempt to suck up to him is rather cute. You see, Izzy is opposed to what we both would call the Israeli Occpation of Palestine. And I am pretty sure that Izzy is happy with the recent UN resolution condemning Israel (although I would suspect he might think it went far enough).

I suspect that Izzy doesn't think any more highly of you than he does of me. But I will let him speak for himself.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

...If a person who defends the rights of ethnic minorities in the US still opposes the expansion of settlements in Israel... and there are many people who do just this, including Americans with a Jewish background... is it really right to call them antisemites?

Perhaps, yes, since the settlements may just be gentrification of a fifty year old gain from the spoils of war. And, if not gentrification, then perhaps eminent domain.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I don't think you are going to find common cause with Izzy, Foofie. Although this attempt to suck up to him is rather cute.

I suspect that Izzy doesn't think any more highly of you than he does of me. But I will let him speak for himself.

Wrong. I don't value cyberspace relationships. I just am involved with analysis, based on one's values. Please mind your own business, unless I comment on your posts. This thread of yours may be having a detrimental effect on your universal humanist humility, since you are fielding all sorts of adversarial comments?

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@maxdancona,

I've seen enough evidence of anti-Semitism in those arguing against the settlements to know it is present. This, of course, doesn't mean all opposition to them is based on anti-Semitism, but it's foolish to argue that it's not prevalent, anymore than it would be foolish to argue that racism wasn't a driving factor in some of the opposition to Obama.

I don't accuse you of anti-Semitism. Your bigotry lies with Christians.

The Left did very little in opposition to the junta in Myanmar and virtually nothing about the genocide in Rwanda (to name but two examples). Stop trying to paint your ideological tribe as wonderful defenders of the all the world's benighted, because it just isn't true.

In any case comparing the Israeli settlements to the actions of Pinochet, the Burmese Junta and apartheid South Africa is ridiculous.

Maybe it's Groupthink and not anti-Semitism that gets liberals all fired up about Israel, but there are far more noxious regimes receiving aid from the US and they don't get half of the left's attention.

I'm quite sure that the settlements won't be a barrier to a peace agreement should the Palestinians come to the table in good faith. In the meantime they provide Israel with leverage, and all the wailing from the Left is going to cause them to give that leverage up.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Well we disagree (and the ad hominems in your post made me chuckle). If your argument is that liberals are anti-semites, then we aren't going to find very much common ground. I don't think there is much to argue here other than I disagree with you.

In my opinion, the settlements are designed to make a two-state solution impossible. That is certainly the aim of the Israeli right wing (and polls will tell you this). They do not want to cede any territory.

And I think the settlements will have exactly this result. As the settlements expand, Israel has more reason to not compromise.

You believe liberals are antisemites, and that their opposition to the expansion of settlements is antisemitism. I believe that liberals are not antisemites and that opposition to expansion of settlements is reasonable.

Where we go from here?

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@maxdancona,

Well you've based your opinion that I believe all liberals are ant-Semites on nothing I've written. So chuckle away.

By your own analysis of the situation, the Palestinians have more concessions to make.

We won't know what Israel will do about the settlements until the Palestinians are prepared to negotiate in good faith. So far, there has been no indication what-so-ever that they are.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Accusing people, of being anti-semitic simply because they criticize Israel's expansion of settlements is an ad hominem attack.

Not when the alleged "criticism of Israel" is actually anti-Semitism.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

In this case the truth supports Oralloy's claim,

/bows

Truth is what I do.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

This is not true. At best, some of the Israelis trace their roots to the Middle East in general, not Palestine specifically. The Ashkenazim, from whom Zionism sprang, exhibit little genealogy originating from the Middle East let alone Palestine.

This simplistic position conflates Jewish nationalism with religious mythology, the idea that all Jews are from Palestine. One thing is the religion. Quite another thing is the people who follow that religion or have ancestors who did. The truth of the matter is that the Israeli Zionists originated from the countries that they inhabited before they emigrated to Palestine.

The fact that the Jews were forced from their homeland against their will does not in any way invalidate their claim to their homeland.

InfraBlue wrote:

Begging the question, however, the Palestinians have much more of a right to Palestine than people claiming ancient ancestry from there.

The notion that Muslims have any sort of legitimate claim to land that they steal from someone else is as preposterous as the idea that the Nazis had a legitimate claim to the artwork they looted.

InfraBlue wrote:

This idea of a moral basis for accepting Israel's right to exist doesn't hold water, as it were.

The Jews have a right to live in their ancient homeland whether you like it or not.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Oralboy

Namecalling.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Both of you are incapable of even admitting when facts don't match your arguments.

Nonsense. I defy you to point out even a single instance of me doing that.

maxdancona wrote:

And both of you commonly use personal attacks and ad hominems when people present another point of view.

And I defy you to point out a single case of me using personal attacks against anyone who didn't make a personal attack against me first.

You may be uncomfortable confronting the facts that I post, but that doesn't justify lying about me.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

It's about securing America's interests, end of. That's why there's such a stink about Iran

While it is true that we oppose Iran's terrorism and illegal pursuit of nuclear weapons because it is in our interests to do so, it is really in the interests of ALL lawful democracies to oppose Iran for those reasons.

izzythepush wrote:

You can't acknowledge that, you prefer living in a fantasy world where you're a bunch of white hatted do gooders.

That's not a fantasy. We really are white-hatted do-gooders.

izzythepush wrote:

Oralboy

Namecalling.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

My hypothesis is that US domestic support for a hawkish policy on Israel stems largely fom Evangelical Christian religious ideas.

Some of us support Israel because we understand that the Palestinians are the aggressors.

0 Replies

How much of Support for Israel is based on Biblical Mythology?

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