Obama steps away from Israel

@oralloy,

Quote:

Potato, po-tah-to. His map looks fine to me.

Based on what? There are no credible sources for the information in that map, and quite a few reasons to believe that this map is fictional. This map is based on the Bible. The same Bible says there was a talking donkey, that the Sun stopped for a day and that mediums can talk to the ghosts of dead people.

These are religious myths.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Based on what?

Based on history and archaeology, and science in general.

maxdancona wrote:

There are no credible sources for the information in that map,

History and archaeology are pretty clear about the existence of a strong Israeli kingdom that had nearby kingdoms as vassals.

maxdancona wrote:

and quite a few reasons to believe that this map is fictional.

Well, the map has the southern kingdom of Judah as dominant. I know of some archaeologists who say that the northern Israelite kingdom was the dominant one. But other than that the map seems OK.

Which of the two Israeli kingdoms was dominant might be an interesting subject of study, but it hardly means that the Israelis were not the main power in the area.

maxdancona wrote:

This map is based on the Bible.

So?

maxdancona wrote:

The same Bible says there was a talking donkey, that the Sun stopped for a day and that mediums can talk to the ghosts of dead people.
These are religious myths.

National histories from ancient times always contained legends. That does not invalidate those national histories as a source of information. You wouldn't ask historians to stop referencing Egyptian hieroglyphs just because Egyptian deities are mentioned would you?

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

It looks like you merely reposted Max's post there.

As I said though, aside from a potential disagreement over which Israeli kingdom was the dominant one, the map seems pretty accurate.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

Well, that map has been printed in 1959.So it's fair to say that it uses data known until the mid-50's.

I don't know if and what archaeologic new evidence has changed the situation until today, but certainly every year will give new data.
(As an example: during the last couple of decades, the border [and timeline] between the Frankish and Saxon territories changed quite a few times [the Franks occupied more territory and earlier than previously thought]. And all we know about that is based on "myths" as well: Caesar, Tacitus, Pliny ...)

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

It looks like you merely reposted Max's post there.

As I said though, aside from a potential disagreement over which Israeli kingdom was the dominant one, the map seems pretty accurate.

I'm kind of OCD about over-sized images.

Frugal's map quotes biblical stories that have not been corroborated by archaeology, e.g. David's capturing of Jerusalem and making it his capital.

And some of the archaeological claims are left up to interpretation, e.g. Solomon's stables at Megiddo.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

The argument I think you are making is that God gave Israel the land, and that the Jewish race was chosen by God over the other races.

Are you arguing that tha land of Israel was given by God to his chosen people?

If you aren't arguing this, then I don't know why a Biblical map is at all interesting in a discussion about modern international politics.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, that map has been printed in 1959.So it's fair to say that it uses data known until the mid-50's.

I don't know if and what archaeologic new evidence has changed the situation until today, but certainly every year will give new data.
(As an example: during the last couple of decades, the border [and timeline] between the Frankish and Saxon territories changed quite a few times [the Franks occupied more territory and earlier than previously thought]. And all we know about that is based on "myths" as well: Caesar, Tacitus, Pliny ...)

There are archaeologists today who contend that the northern Israelite kingdom was the one that was powerful, as opposed to the southern kingdom of Judah.

I'm not sure that it ultimately matters. Either way the Israelis had a powerful kingdom in the area.

0 Replies

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

I'm kind of OCD about over-sized images.

You can reduce them.

Code:

[img width=500].................[/img]

verses

[img].................[/img]

The top one will size the image so that it is 500 pixels wide.

960 pixels seems to fit the current a2k column width (but is too large if the image is subsequently quoted).

InfraBlue wrote:

Frugal's map quotes biblical stories that have not been corroborated by archaeology, e.g. David's capturing of Jerusalem and making it his capital.
And some of the archaeological claims are left up to interpretation, e.g. Solomon's stables at Megiddo.

There is archaeology though that shows that the northern kingdom of Israel was powerful enough to have nearby kingdoms as vassals.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The argument I think you are making is that God gave Israel the land, and that the Jewish race was chosen by God over the other races.
Are you arguing that tha land of Israel was given by God to his chosen people?

Be serious. I said nothing of the sort, and quite clearly gave arguments that were based on science and history.

maxdancona wrote:

If you aren't arguing this, then I don't know why a Biblical map is at all interesting in a discussion about modern international politics.

It is a fact that the Israelis had a powerful kingdom in this area back then. Facts are worth defending.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

It is a fact that the Israelis had a powerful kingdom in this area back then. Facts are worth defending.

Do you have any unbiased information that isn't from a religious text to back up this "fact"?

1 Reply

@oralloy,

That's normal for Max.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Do you have any unbiased information that isn't from a religious text to back up this "fact"?

Does history and archaeology count?

The archaeological remains of their cities are pretty significant. There are records of the northern Israelite kingdom being a major participant in one of the major battles of the era, and also of a nearby kingdom (the Moabites) being forced to be a vassal to the Israelites at the height of their power.

Scroll down to the sections "Historicity" and "Archaeological evidence" here:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omrides

Here are the records of the Israelites being a major participant in one of the major battles of the day:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Qarqar
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurkh_Monoliths

And here are Moab's records of having been subjugated by the Israelites:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele

This quote sums it up best:
"The Tel Dan Stele, the Mesha Stele, the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser, and direct evidence from excavations, together paint a picture of the Omride kings ruling a rich, powerful, and cosmopolitan empire, stretching from Damascus to Moab,[34]"
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

1 Reply

@oralloy,

You are cherry picking Oralloy. Sure, it is clear that there was a Kingdom of Israel. Their military power or the extent of their borders is likely exagerrated in the religious text.

Mythology often has elements of truth... there was a city of Troy, that doesn't mean that Archilles was really dipped in the river Styx.

I am saying that the map in question is based on religious mythology with no sources to back it up. I have never implied that there never was a Kingdom of Israel or that it never had a battle.

1 Reply

We can all agree that 0bama would like to see Israel destroyed.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You are cherry picking Oralloy. Sure, it is clear that there was a Kingdom of Israel. Their military power or the extent of their borders is likely exagerrated in the religious text.

Aside from the question of whether it was the northern or southern kingdom that had the power, there doesn't seem to be any exaggeration.

maxdancona wrote:

I am saying that the map in question is based on religious mythology with no sources to back it up.

A map of the extent of the northern Israelite kingdom, fully backed up by history and archaeology, would look quite similar.

maxdancona wrote:

I have never implied that there never was a Kingdom of Israel or that it never had a battle.

It wasn't just a battle. The northern kingdom's contribution to this battle was the contribution of a major power.

1 Reply

@Frugal1,

Frugal1 wrote:

We can all agree that 0bama would like to see Israel destroyed.

No kidding. What was his problem with Israel anyway?

1 Reply

@oralloy,

It's probably a muslim thing that we wouldn't understand.

0 Replies

@oralloy,

Quote:

A map of the extent of the northern Israelite kingdom, fully backed up by history and archaeology, would look quite similar.

Quote:

It wasn't just a battle. The northern kingdom's contribution to this battle was the contribution of a major power.

Do you have any unbiased evidence from non-religious sources to support these claims?

You are providing any sources for your claims. It seems like you are just making stuff up.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Do you have any unbiased evidence from non-religious sources to support these claims?

Here are the records of the Israelites being a major participant in one of the major battles of the day:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Qarqar
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurkh_Monoliths

And here are Moab's records of having been subjugated by the Israelites:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele

This quote sums it up best:
"The Tel Dan Stele, the Mesha Stele, the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser, and direct evidence from excavations, together paint a picture of the Omride kings ruling a rich, powerful, and cosmopolitan empire, stretching from Damascus to Moab,[34]"
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

maxdancona wrote:

It seems like you are just making stuff up.

I am not the creator of the world's historical and archaeological records.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

I am not the creator of the world's historical and archaeological records.

No, you are just cherry picking the world's historical and archaelogical records to make dubious points about your view of history.

1 Reply

Obama steps away from Israel

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