6
   

Obama steps away from Israel

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 08:30 pm
@roger,
And Native Americans can also vote.

By the way, it was Mcgentrix who started comparing Israel with the US. It makes the US look like a great example of a modern democracy in comparison to Israel (although it took us a while to get here).
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 08:30 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

So it's okay to marginalize them and take their land forever.


Yes, that's been the storybook for war all through history.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 09:09 am
@mark noble,
I will elaborate - Your interpretation of Netenyahu's function is misguided.
His only fuction is to 'follow his script'.

Are you, seriously, under the impression he is relevant?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 10:51 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
So it's okay to marginalize them and take their land forever.

Yes! Given the way Israel has been treated for having made all of their peace offers, that is exactly what it is now OK for Israel to do to the Palestinians.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 10:53 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Oralloy, you are talking as if there really is some Angry Powerful deity behind Israel. This is a myth.

No. I am talking as if Israel is strong enough to take what they want and kill whoever gets in their way. That is not a myth.

And I am talking as if, given the way they've been treated, Israel now has a moral right to take what they want and kill whoever gets in their way. That, also, is not a myth.

So now it's a waiting game. Sooner or later Israel will be pushed to the point where they lose their patience and take what they want, killing whoever gets in their way. It's just a matter of how much patience Israel has.


maxdancona wrote:
Israel is just a country. Most of the developed democratic world understands that Israel is acting against democratic norms.

No. An assortment of Nazis and anti-Semites falsely accuse Israel of such behavior.

Nazis and anti-Semites like to make false accusations against Jews and then try to use those false accusations to justify harming Jews.

Fortunately Israel is strong enough to kill anyone who tries to harm them, and is fully within their rights to do so.


maxdancona wrote:
The support of the US is what gives it leverage but even that has limits. The fact is that international isolation hurts Israel the same way it hurt South Africa under apartheid.

Fortunately most people recognize that Nazis and anti-Semites are wrong to try to harm Israel this way. And they reject such policies.


maxdancona wrote:
Israel is not infallible

Perhaps. But Israel is entirely in the right in this case.


maxdancona wrote:
and they suffer from shunning the international community. Even hardliners like Netanyahu understand this.

Like I noted above, most people recognize that it is wrong to allow Nazis and anti-Semites use false accusations as a basis for harming Israel.


maxdancona wrote:
That is why this 14-0 vote that has the support of most of the world's democracies is so important.

Sooner or later these Nazis are going to push too far, and Israel is going to finish building the Security Fence, including around Jerusalem and in the other places where Israel is currently being pressured not to finish it, and that will become Israel's international border.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 11:05 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

maxdancona wrote:
Oralloy, you are talking as if there really is some Angry Powerful deity behind Israel. This is a myth.

No. I am talking as if Israel is strong enough to take what they want and kill whoever gets in their way. That is not a myth.

And I am talking as if, given the way they've been treated, Israel now has a moral right to take what they want and kill whoever gets in their way. That, also, is not a myth.

So now it's a waiting game. Sooner or later Israel will be pushed to the point where they lose their patience and take what they want, killing whoever gets in their way. It's just a matter of how much patience Israel has.


maxdancona wrote:
Israel is just a country. Most of the developed democratic world understands that Israel is acting against democratic norms.

No. An assortment of Nazis and anti-Semites falsely accuse Israel of such behavior.

Nazis and anti-Semites like to make false accusations against Jews and then try to use those false accusations to justify harming Jews.

Fortunately Israel is strong enough to kill anyone who tries to harm them, and is fully within their rights to do so.


maxdancona wrote:
The support of the US is what gives it leverage but even that has limits. The fact is that international isolation hurts Israel the same way it hurt South Africa under apartheid.

Fortunately most people recognize that Nazis and anti-Semites are wrong to try to harm Israel this way. And they reject such policies.


maxdancona wrote:
Israel is not infallible

Perhaps. But Israel is entirely in the right in this case.


maxdancona wrote:
and they suffer from shunning the international community. Even hardliners like Netanyahu understand this.

Like I noted above, most people recognize that it is wrong to allow Nazis and anti-Semites use false accusations as a basis for harming Israel.


maxdancona wrote:
That is why this 14-0 vote that has the support of most of the world's democracies is so important.

Sooner or later these Nazis are going to push too far, and Israel is going to finish building the Security Fence, including around Jerusalem and in the other places where Israel is currently being pressured not to finish it, and that will become Israel's international border.


The fact that can't be denied is that they are stealing land by force of death. They claim the land belongs to them, kicking out the Palestinians. Its wrong, and any justification that it's fine is evil. Call me what ever the **** you want to try and silence the truth but Israel is in the wrong here. If anyone should know better to not do this ****, its the Jews. They are essentially doing the same **** they cry about. So **** Israel and anyone who supports them.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 11:14 am
Oralloy isn't making sense. I think I am bored with him.

Let the record show, I did make a sincere attempt.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 11:37 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Oralloy isn't making sense. I think I am bored with him.

Let the record show, I did make a sincere attempt.



It makes sense if you see that he has invested interest in supporting Israel. Friends or family probably side with them so he falls in line. The whole absurd thing to this is the Palestinians just want to have a home and live their lives but it's religion that stirs the pot and pins people against people. This is a one blatant drawback to religion. A god (if any exist) who would support such a thing is not even worthy if the title, "god".
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 11:47 am
@Krumple,
When Oralloy makes one-sided arguments that have no bearing in reality, it is frustrating. It makes reasoning with him difficult (which I think is his intent).

But when Oralloy states emphatically that "Israel has a moral right to kill anyone who gets in it's way" he crosses a line. This is something that an ISIS supporter would say (not a rational person arguing for a democratic state).

I would love to have a rational discussion with a reasonable person on the other side of this issue. I was hoping McGentrix would step up... but he seems to have ducked out.

Responding to Oralloy's extremist and entirely predictable absurd rhetoric is getting boring.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:03 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

When Oralloy makes one-sided arguments that have no bearing in reality, it is frustrating. It makes reasoning with him difficult (which I think is his intent).

But when Oralloy states emphatically that "Israel has a moral right to kill anyone who gets in it's way" he crosses a line. This is something that an ISIS supporter would say (not a rational person arguing for a democratic state).

I would love to have a rational discussion with a reasonable person on the other side of this issue. I was hoping McGentrix would step up... but he seems to have ducked out.

Responding to Oralloy's extremist and entirely predictable absurd rhetoric is getting boring.


Its a bizarre thing to me when on one hand a person can say the Nazis were bad with their treatment of the Jews but then justify another form of genocide. The only difference in this case is that Israel isn't lining up Palestinians and marching them into gas chambers. Instead they just mow down their homes with tanks and point assault riffles at them telling them to move and any resistance is met with bullets in their bodies even if they are women or children. How is this any better than nazi behavior? I see it as the same thing at least the Nazis gave the Jews one last meal before they murdered them. hi
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:29 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
The fact that can't be denied is that they are stealing land by force of death.

Hardly stealing. Israel has every right to that land.


Krumple wrote:
They claim the land belongs to them, kicking out the Palestinians.

Yes. Good.


Krumple wrote:
Its wrong, and any justification that it's fine is evil.

It's not wrong. Israel are the good guys here.

It is hardly evil to say that it is good when the good guys win.


Krumple wrote:
Call me what ever the **** you want to try and silence the truth but Israel is in the wrong here.

Far from silencing the truth, my goal is to defend the truth.

Israel is not in the wrong in any way here. They are not doing anything wrong.


Krumple wrote:
If anyone should know better to not do this ****, its the Jews.

I think they've learned quite well that it is good to use force against the bad guys.


Krumple wrote:
They are essentially doing the same **** they cry about.

Hardly. What Israel is doing is defending themselves against aggression.


Krumple wrote:
So **** Israel and anyone who supports them.

I prefer to side WITH the good guys. But it's a free country.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:30 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Oralloy isn't making sense.

I didn't see you try to challenge any of my facts.....


maxdancona wrote:
Let the record show, I did make a sincere attempt.

I don't doubt your sincerity. But since all you ever did was avoid confronting any of my facts, your effort was sort of doomed from the start.

Confronting facts is a much more productive way to go about a conversation.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:32 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
It makes sense if you see that he has invested interest in supporting Israel. Friends or family probably side with them so he falls in line.

Nah. I just believe in doing the right thing.


Krumple wrote:
The whole absurd thing to this is the Palestinians just want to have a home and live their lives but

If the Palestinians wanted that, they would have accepted peace when it was offered.

What the Palestinians want is to murder more children.


Krumple wrote:
but it's religion that stirs the pot and pins people against people. This is a one blatant drawback to religion. A god (if any exist) who would support such a thing is not even worthy if the title, "god".

Islam is a blight on humanity.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:33 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
When Oralloy makes one-sided arguments that have no bearing in reality, it is frustrating.

Hold on here. Every one of my arguments is based entirely in reality.

If my arguments are one-sided, it is because I always adhere to the truth.


maxdancona wrote:
It makes reasoning with him difficult (which I think is his intent).

My intent is to do the right thing and speak up in defense of the innocent.


maxdancona wrote:
But when Oralloy states emphatically that "Israel has a moral right to kill anyone who gets in it's way" he crosses a line.

When the good guys wage war to defend themselves, they do indeed have the right to kill those who are attacking them.

This is why it was OK for the US to drop A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


maxdancona wrote:
This is something that an ISIS supporter would say

Maybe so. But Islamic State are factually not the good guys, and factually have no legitimate justification for their use of force.

Israel are factually the good guys, and their use of force factually is completely lawful and legitimate.


maxdancona wrote:
(not a rational person arguing for a democratic state).

A rational person arguing for a democratic state can reasonably make the argument if it is actually true.


maxdancona wrote:
I would love to have a rational discussion with a reasonable person on the other side of this issue.

A rational discussion would involve you confronting facts instead of avoiding them. I'm here if you decide you really want to do that.


maxdancona wrote:
Responding to Oralloy's extremist and entirely predictable absurd rhetoric is getting boring.

It is absurd for me to point out facts and reality?

I can see how facts would be predictable though. They tend to be unchanging.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:40 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
Its a bizarre thing to me when on one hand a person can say the Nazis were bad with their treatment of the Jews but then justify another form of genocide.

Falsely accusing Jews of committing genocide is anti-Semitism of the most appalling sort. Shame on you.


Krumple wrote:
The only difference in this case is that Israel isn't lining up Palestinians and marching them into gas chambers. Instead they just mow down their homes with tanks and point assault riffles at them telling them to move and any resistance is met with bullets in their bodies even if they are women or children.

The ONLY violence that Israel exercises towards Palestinians is entirely self defense against aggression initiated by those Palestinians.


Krumple wrote:
How is this any better than nazi behavior?

The reason why "Jews defending themselves from those who would murder them" is better than "Jews being murdered" is because in both cases the Jews are the good guys and are not doing anyone any harm, and in both cases the bad guys are the people who are trying to murder the Jews.


Krumple wrote:
I see it as the same thing

"Jews defending themselves from those who would murder them" is not even remotely the same as "Jews being murdered".
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:43 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Krumple wrote:
Its a bizarre thing to me when on one hand a person can say the Nazis were bad with their treatment of the Jews but then justify another form of genocide.

Falsely accusing Jews of committing genocide is anti-Semitism of the most appalling sort. Shame on you.


Krumple wrote:
The only difference in this case is that Israel isn't lining up Palestinians and marching them into gas chambers. Instead they just mow down their homes with tanks and point assault riffles at them telling them to move and any resistance is met with bullets in their bodies even if they are women or children.

The ONLY violence that Israel exercises towards Palestinians is entirely self defense against aggression initiated by those Palestinians.


Krumple wrote:
How is this any better than nazi behavior?

The reason why "Jews defending themselves from those who would murder them" is better than "Jews being murdered" is because in both cases the Jews are the good guys and are not doing anyone any harm, and in both cases the bad guys are the people who are trying to murder the Jews.


Krumple wrote:
I see it as the same thing

"Jews defending themselves from those who would murder them" is not even remotely the same as "Jews being murdered".


You make a great Darth Vader. Congrats.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:50 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
You make a great Darth Vader. Congrats.

Note that you are the one defending evil and I'm the one defending good.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 04:09 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

If families have been living in the same land for hundreds and thousands of years, they will likely have had borders redrawn around them many times. That doesn't mean they will leave the place of their ancestry.

There are many examples of border changing around people who are living in their ancestral homes.

That doesn't justify ethnic cleansing.


There is no genocide. They are just protecting Jewish citizens from the extremist Arab elements. Where do you get the idea that there is wholesale, en masse, ethnic cleansing? Do you realize that only 70 years ago in Germany you were a Mischling? Sort of like the Germans version of a half-breed that would go to the gas chambers. Meaning, your progressive rhetoric is sort of myopic, since you and I would have both been Juden headed to get a whiff of Zyklon B. You are not qualified, in my opinion, to partake in this conversation with me.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 04:12 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Sounds good to me. But I'd also say that conversions to Judaism would be acceptable.
There are already about 500,000 'second-class' Jews in Israel - mainly American and Russian Jews, who are not Jewish enough for Israel's supreme religious authority - but they are citizens.


Let's wait a century or two, when these unkosher Jews become successful to the point of making the descendants of the Germanic tribes annoyed at these "outsiders." Do you think leopards really change their spots?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2016 04:22 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

Foofie wrote:

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that the West Bank, prior to the '67 war was part of Jordan. So weren't the Palestinians Jordanians, regardless of their waxing nostalgic about their historical roots? Note that prior to the modern state of Israel, there were always some religious Jews that chose to live under Ottoman rule, as long as they were in their Holy Land. So, only after the Balfour Declaration did Jews begin the effort of have a modern Zionist state. Regardless, when did a vanquished population in history decide to have their own state, when the prior government lost a war. It's called being the spoils of war. They were either expelled or assimilated. What seems to be occurring is that the losers if the '67 war (Jordan) had their citizens attempt to undermine the victors by claiming statehood. Alice In Wonderland, in my opinion.

Notice how Jordan never invited the West Bank Palestinians to come back to Jordan. Apparently, the King of Jordan had enough Palestinians in Jordan proper? It is a sticky wicket, but no one is focusing on the dirty little secret that Jewish families in Israel are only 70 years after the Holocaust, by dumb luck, they survived. Americans cannot often understand that to make Israel a child's birthday party, where everyone is a winner, is tantamount to not learning the lesson of a Europe that either considered Jews expendable, or happy that Hitler did what good Christians could not do. For more than one European Christian, Hitler took the sin of genocide on himself. Do you see an analogy with another religion?


I'd like to reiterate what Foofie has said here. The native Americans are on government granted reservations because they lost a war. The Palestinians are on lands granted to them because they lost a war. There is ZERO comparison between what's happening to and around the Palestinians that can even be mildly compared to the Holocaust.


The Holocaust just answers the question, "Why are the Israelis so recalcitrant?" The answer is that the Holocaust is the defining emotional experience for Jews in the 20th - ? centuries.

I have been told by someone of color that the fact that Germans (whites) could, without compunction, gas/shoot other civilian whites of their own country (German Jews) makes many non-whites wonder what whites are capable of doing to non-whites who have always be held in lesser esteem if they thought non-whites were "a problem." My point is that the Holocaust might have repercussions aside from Israel, considering the majority of humanity is non-white. But, if we just focus on the Holocaust as a "Jewish thing" the world might be able to ignore a deeper question.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
So....Will Biden Be VP? - Question by blueveinedthrobber
My view on Obama - Discussion by McGentrix
Obama/ Love Him or Hate Him, We've Got Him - Discussion by Phoenix32890
Obama fumbles at Faith Forum - Discussion by slkshock7
Expert: Obama is not the antichrist - Discussion by joefromchicago
Obama's State of the Union - Discussion by maxdancona
Demand a plan - Discussion by H2O MAN
 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 11/27/2021 at 09:03:05