Obama steps away from Israel

So it's okay to marginalize them and take their land forever.

So it's okay to marginalize them and take their land forever.

Oralloy, you are talking as if there really is some Angry Powerful deity behind Israel. This is a myth.

Israel is just a country. Most of the developed democratic world understands that Israel is acting against democratic norms.

The support of the US is what gives it leverage but even that has limits. The fact is that international isolation hurts Israel the same way it hurt South Africa under apartheid.

Israel is not infallible

and they suffer from shunning the international community. Even hardliners like Netanyahu understand this.

That is why this 14-0 vote that has the support of most of the world's democracies is so important.

maxdancona wrote:

Oralloy, you are talking as if there really is some Angry Powerful deity behind Israel. This is a myth.

No. I am talking as if Israel is strong enough to take what they want and kill whoever gets in their way. That is not a myth.

And I am talking as if, given the way they've been treated, Israel now has a moral right to take what they want and kill whoever gets in their way. That, also, is not a myth.

So now it's a waiting game. Sooner or later Israel will be pushed to the point where they lose their patience and take what they want, killing whoever gets in their way. It's just a matter of how much patience Israel has.

maxdancona wrote:

Israel is just a country. Most of the developed democratic world understands that Israel is acting against democratic norms.

No. An assortment of Nazis and anti-Semites falsely accuse Israel of such behavior.

Nazis and anti-Semites like to make false accusations against Jews and then try to use those false accusations to justify harming Jews.

Fortunately Israel is strong enough to kill anyone who tries to harm them, and is fully within their rights to do so.

maxdancona wrote:

The support of the US is what gives it leverage but even that has limits. The fact is that international isolation hurts Israel the same way it hurt South Africa under apartheid.

Fortunately most people recognize that Nazis and anti-Semites are wrong to try to harm Israel this way. And they reject such policies.

maxdancona wrote:

Israel is not infallible

Perhaps. But Israel is entirely in the right in this case.

maxdancona wrote:

and they suffer from shunning the international community. Even hardliners like Netanyahu understand this.

Like I noted above, most people recognize that it is wrong to allow Nazis and anti-Semites use false accusations as a basis for harming Israel.

maxdancona wrote:

That is why this 14-0 vote that has the support of most of the world's democracies is so important.

Sooner or later these Nazis are going to push too far, and Israel is going to finish building the Security Fence, including around Jerusalem and in the other places where Israel is currently being pressured not to finish it, and that will become Israel's international border.

Oralloy isn't making sense. I think I am bored with him.

Let the record show, I did make a sincere attempt.

When Oralloy makes one-sided arguments that have no bearing in reality, it is frustrating. It makes reasoning with him difficult (which I think is his intent).

But when Oralloy states emphatically that "Israel has a moral right to kill anyone who gets in it's way" he crosses a line. This is something that an ISIS supporter would say (not a rational person arguing for a democratic state).

I would love to have a rational discussion with a reasonable person on the other side of this issue. I was hoping McGentrix would step up... but he seems to have ducked out.

Responding to Oralloy's extremist and entirely predictable absurd rhetoric is getting boring.

The fact that can't be denied is that they are stealing land by force of death.

They claim the land belongs to them, kicking out the Palestinians.

Its wrong, and any justification that it's fine is evil.

Call me what ever the **** you want to try and silence the truth but Israel is in the wrong here.

If anyone should know better to not do this ****, its the Jews.

They are essentially doing the same **** they cry about.

So **** Israel and anyone who supports them.

Oralloy isn't making sense.

Let the record show, I did make a sincere attempt.

It makes sense if you see that he has invested interest in supporting Israel. Friends or family probably side with them so he falls in line.

The whole absurd thing to this is the Palestinians just want to have a home and live their lives but

but it's religion that stirs the pot and pins people against people. This is a one blatant drawback to religion. A god (if any exist) who would support such a thing is not even worthy if the title, "god".

When Oralloy makes one-sided arguments that have no bearing in reality, it is frustrating.

It makes reasoning with him difficult (which I think is his intent).

But when Oralloy states emphatically that "Israel has a moral right to kill anyone who gets in it's way" he crosses a line.

This is something that an ISIS supporter would say

(not a rational person arguing for a democratic state).

I would love to have a rational discussion with a reasonable person on the other side of this issue.

Responding to Oralloy's extremist and entirely predictable absurd rhetoric is getting boring.

Its a bizarre thing to me when on one hand a person can say the Nazis were bad with their treatment of the Jews but then justify another form of genocide.

The only difference in this case is that Israel isn't lining up Palestinians and marching them into gas chambers. Instead they just mow down their homes with tanks and point assault riffles at them telling them to move and any resistance is met with bullets in their bodies even if they are women or children.

How is this any better than nazi behavior?

I see it as the same thing

Krumple wrote:

Its a bizarre thing to me when on one hand a person can say the Nazis were bad with their treatment of the Jews but then justify another form of genocide.

Falsely accusing Jews of committing genocide is anti-Semitism of the most appalling sort. Shame on you.

Krumple wrote:

The only difference in this case is that Israel isn't lining up Palestinians and marching them into gas chambers. Instead they just mow down their homes with tanks and point assault riffles at them telling them to move and any resistance is met with bullets in their bodies even if they are women or children.

The ONLY violence that Israel exercises towards Palestinians is entirely self defense against aggression initiated by those Palestinians.

Krumple wrote:

How is this any better than nazi behavior?

The reason why "Jews defending themselves from those who would murder them" is better than "Jews being murdered" is because in both cases the Jews are the good guys and are not doing anyone any harm, and in both cases the bad guys are the people who are trying to murder the Jews.

Krumple wrote:

I see it as the same thing

"Jews defending themselves from those who would murder them" is not even remotely the same as "Jews being murdered".

You make a great Darth Vader. Congrats.

If families have been living in the same land for hundreds and thousands of years, they will likely have had borders redrawn around them many times. That doesn't mean they will leave the place of their ancestry.

There are many examples of border changing around people who are living in their ancestral homes.

That doesn't justify ethnic cleansing.

oralloy wrote:

Sounds good to me. But I'd also say that conversions to Judaism would be acceptable.

There are already about 500,000 'second-class' Jews in Israel - mainly American and Russian Jews, who are not Jewish enough for Israel's supreme religious authority - but they are citizens.

Foofie wrote:

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that the West Bank, prior to the '67 war was part of Jordan. So weren't the Palestinians Jordanians, regardless of their waxing nostalgic about their historical roots? Note that prior to the modern state of Israel, there were always some religious Jews that chose to live under Ottoman rule, as long as they were in their Holy Land. So, only after the Balfour Declaration did Jews begin the effort of have a modern Zionist state. Regardless, when did a vanquished population in history decide to have their own state, when the prior government lost a war. It's called being the spoils of war. They were either expelled or assimilated. What seems to be occurring is that the losers if the '67 war (Jordan) had their citizens attempt to undermine the victors by claiming statehood. Alice In Wonderland, in my opinion.

Notice how Jordan never invited the West Bank Palestinians to come back to Jordan. Apparently, the King of Jordan had enough Palestinians in Jordan proper? It is a sticky wicket, but no one is focusing on the dirty little secret that Jewish families in Israel are only 70 years after the Holocaust, by dumb luck, they survived. Americans cannot often understand that to make Israel a child's birthday party, where everyone is a winner, is tantamount to not learning the lesson of a Europe that either considered Jews expendable, or happy that Hitler did what good Christians could not do. For more than one European Christian, Hitler took the sin of genocide on himself. Do you see an analogy with another religion?

I'd like to reiterate what Foofie has said here. The native Americans are on government granted reservations because they lost a war. The Palestinians are on lands granted to them because they lost a war. There is ZERO comparison between what's happening to and around the Palestinians that can even be mildly compared to the Holocaust.