Obama steps away from Israel

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Do you have any unbiased evidence from non-religious sources to support these claims?

You are providing any sources for your claims. It seems like you are just making stuff up.

Do you have any unbiased evidence from non-religious sources to refute them?

Please share with the class.

0 Replies

@InfraBlue,

I read a piece about Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction by a scientist who thought it might be true. He believes a meteor might have struck earth with enough mass to rain molten rock on the cities. Sounded rational to me. Never studied it any further.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

No, you are just cherry picking the world's historical and archaelogical records to make dubious points about your view of history.

I am not sure I understand your complaint about cherry picking. It stands to reason that I would reference findings that support my position as opposed to findings that don't.

The records in question are pretty clear. What is dubious about my points?

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@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

I read a piece about Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction by a scientist who thought it might be true. He believes a meteor might have struck earth with enough mass to rain molten rock on the cities. Sounded rational to me. Never studied it any further.

The most reasonable explanation is that the story is mythology.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Israel Finkelstein, an archaeologist at Tel Aviv University, in the Israeli daily Haaretz:

Quote:

We are probably dealing here with an etiological story, that is, a legend that developed in order to explain a landmark. In other words, people who lived in the later phase of the Iron Age, the later days of the kingdom of Judah, were familiar with the huge ruins of the Early Bronze cities and told a story of how such important places could be destroyed.

Source

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

I really like Finkelstein's take on the archaeology in Palestine. He's straddles the line between the minimalist and maximalist interpretations of the archaeologists there.

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trevorw2539 wrote:

The Biblical Kingdom of David is nearly twice the size of the archaeological kingdom of Omri.

Maybe, but the Omrides ruled over an expansive area and included at least one neighboring kingdom as vassals.

trevorw2539 wrote:

The Mesha stone and Tell Dan inscription give evidence of his existence but the numbers on the inscription are doubtful. Every victor over estimated the enemy to make his victory more of an accomplishment.

The exaggeration would have applied to all the forces that were allied with the Israelites. If all the numbers are reduced, the Omrides would still be one of the major powers in the alliance.

trevorw2539 wrote:

I think we are talking about different interpretations. If you are referring to the Merneptah Stela that is referring to people living in Palestine. I was referring to the people supposed to have exited Egypt (mythical). 'Israel' is down to the interpretation of the Egyptian language

I was in part referring to the Merneptah Stele, but also the archaeological evidence of the Israelite culture living in the area starting around 1200 BC.

There are reasons to believe that a group of escaped slaves did provide inspiration to the Israelite culture. Textual analysis shows that the escape across the Red Sea is the most ancient part of the Bible. Also, Egyptian records from around 1400 BC show that the Hebrew deity was a local deity in the lands of the Bedouin nomads. That is right where a group of escaped slaves would run across it while wandering in the desert.

trevorw2539 wrote:

That really depends on what is large. It was certainly larger than the southern kingdom, but then what was a 'kingdom'. Most 'Kingdoms' and even empires of the time were often made up of independent cities with their own 'kings'. Cities in areas were often related with citizens of the same nationality and joined together in times of danger.

There is evidence that they were a major military power, and evidence that they subjugated at least one nearby kingdom (the Moabites).

I think this quote is a reasonable characterization:
"The Tel Dan Stele, the Mesha Stele, the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser, and direct evidence from excavations, together paint a picture of the Omride kings ruling a rich, powerful, and cosmopolitan empire, stretching from Damascus to Moab,[34]"
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

trevorw2539 wrote:

So you invade your neighbours property/land and won't withdraw without some agreement.

In the context of your neighbor waging perpetual war against you, and your invasion being in self defense against that perpetual war, yes!

1 Reply

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/04/01/researchers-asteroid-destroyed-sodom-and-gomorrah.html

2 Replies

@RABEL222,

Huh???

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@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/04/01/researchers-asteroid-destroyed-sodom-and-gomorrah.html

Hempsall and Bond's assertions are based on a lot of question begging. Their's remind me of Erich von Däniken's. There is no evidence (like the most obvious of all: a crater) of an asteroid impact having caused the massive landslide at Köfels in Austria let alone a trail of destruction that encompassed Palestine.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

Maybe, but the Omrides ruled over an expansive area and included at least one neighboring kingdom as vassals.
URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-6337332

But if you believe the Bible David's Kingdom was from the Egyptian border north to the Euphrates. He also conquered Moab and Edom. He couldn't conquer the powerful Philistines.

If, of course, we put aside the exaggerated stories of David, the Omrides probably were 'strong'. But taken into context of the times, you didn't have to be particularly strong to overcome the north of Moab. You picked off the small 'city states' one at a time - and there were very few of them.

I was in part referring to the Merneptah Stele, but also the archaeological evidence of the Israelite culture living in the area starting around 1200 BC.

There are reasons to believe that a group of escaped slaves did provide inspiration to the Israelite culture. Textual analysis shows that the escape across the Red Sea is the most ancient part of the Bible. Also, Egyptian records from around 1400 BC show that the Hebrew deity was a local deity in the lands of the Bedouin nomads. That is right where a group of escaped slaves would run across it while wandering in the desert.

URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-6337332

What has 'escaped slaves' from Egypt got to do with Israelite culture. Egypt controlled much of Palestine for centuries. That could easily influence its culture.
How textual analysis can show the Red Sea story as the most ancient part of the Bible is beyond me. It never happened. The whole early part of the Bible was written by scribes in the 7th century BCE, while they were in Babylon.. There's no sign of any Noah, Abraham, Moses anywhere in ancient history. In fact, ancient history disqualifies much of the early Bible.
As to the deity, the Hebrews were never monotheistic until their Babylonian exile. The Bible shows that, and archaeology shows it. Teraphim have been found in many ancient houses.

I think this quote is a reasonable characterization:
"The Tel Dan Stele, the Mesha Stele, the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser, and direct evidence from excavations, together paint a picture of the Omride kings ruling a rich, powerful, and cosmopolitan empire, stretching from Damascus to Moab,[34]"
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-6337332

I suppose you could say that of a Dynasty that ruled just 200 square miles of territory. Pity such a rich, cosmopolitan and powerful empire could only last 50 years.

By the way 'The Bible Unearthed' facts were known and written about by another Jewish author before this book.

In the context of your neighbor waging perpetual war against you, and your invasion being in self defense against that perpetual war, yes!

URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-6337332

How it is 'in defense'. The Jews are building on the land. If peace came would they give the houses to the Arabs.

2 Replies

Help. How do you enclose quotes on here.

1 Reply

@trevorw2539,

Code:[quote]text[/quote]

results in:

Quote:

text

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Thanks

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Sodom and Gomorrah both lay at the north part of the East African Rift Valley, like Jericho. Earthquakes have occurred. Earthquakes have destroyed Jericho - on the Dead Sea - and these were close by. Why not an earthquake?

This is not a criticism of what you posted.

1 Reply

@trevorw2539,

trevorw2539 wrote:

Thanks

It's easier to just turn on the quote button in your preferences.

But if you want to do it the hard way, in addition to the generic quotes:

Code:[quote="oralloy"]text[/quote]

results in:

oralloy wrote:

text

Code:[quote="trevorw2539"]text[/quote]

results in:

trevorw2539 wrote:

text

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@trevorw2539,

trevorw2539 wrote:

But if you believe the Bible David's Kingdom was from the Egyptian border north to the Euphrates. He also conquered Moab and Edom. He couldn't conquer the powerful Philistines.

The Bible's depiction of David's kingdom may go further south than the Omrides' actual kingdom, but in general their characteristics as a regional power seem fundamentally the same.

trevorw2539 wrote:

What has 'escaped slaves' from Egypt got to do with Israelite culture.

They converted to the Hebrew religion on their way through the desert and then brought their new religion home with them (along with an inspirational story of escape from slavery that they credited to their new religion).

trevorw2539 wrote:

Egypt controlled much of Palestine for centuries. That could easily influence its culture.

It did.

trevorw2539 wrote:

How textual analysis can show the Red Sea story as the most ancient part of the Bible is beyond me.

Think about how "Old English" reads to someone used to modern English. Go back a little ways, and you get "thees" and "thous" and a stilted sentence structure. Go back farther yet and the vowels change. Trying to read English from 500 years ago can be like reading a foreign language.

The same sort of changes happen to other languages too. The part of the Bible that was written about the escape across the Red Sea is in language that is more ancient than the language of any other part of the Bible.

trevorw2539 wrote:

It never happened.

There is no basis for concluding that. There is no reason that a group of slaves couldn't escape from Egypt. And Egyptian records show that the Hebrew deity was worshiped locally in the lands of the desert nomads in 1400BC.

If escaped slaves did not bring the Hebrew religion to the West Bank, there would have to be some other explanation how the worship of a local deity from the lands of the Bedouin nomads suddenly became a popular religion in the West Bank area.

trevorw2539 wrote:

The whole early part of the Bible was written by scribes in the 7th century BCE, while they were in Babylon..

Not all of it. Some parts were written earlier. It is sort of a mishmash of different sources from different times.

trevorw2539 wrote:

There's no sign of any Noah, Abraham, Moses anywhere in ancient history. In fact, ancient history disqualifies much of the early Bible.
As to the deity, the Hebrews were never monotheistic until their Babylonian exile. The Bible shows that, and archaeology shows it. Teraphim have been found in many ancient houses.

Presumably the leader of the band of escaped slaves had a name. There is no reason it couldn't have been Moses. But who knows.

trevorw2539 wrote:

I suppose you could say that of a Dynasty that ruled just 200 square miles of territory. Pity such a rich, cosmopolitan and powerful empire could only last 50 years.

I mark it as a bit more than 200 years. 950BC to 722BC. And when Samaria was destroyed Jerusalem absorbed many of the former Israelites and then prospered greatly as a vassal to Assyria.

1 Reply

@trevorw2539,

trevorw2539 wrote:

How it is 'in defense'.

The Arabs were attacking Israel and Israel was defending themselves.

trevorw2539 wrote:

The Jews are building on the land. If peace came would they give the houses to the Arabs.

Most likely Israel would tear down the settlements and hand over the vacant land.

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@trevorw2539,

Their existence hasn't even been verified, though, especially given the sexed up details of fire and brimstone raining from the sky. I think that the writers took the evidence of ancient ruins and then ascribed to them moralistic narratives that would fit their religious purposes.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Dident say it was proof. We were talking about things that could have happened 10 or 20 thousands of years ago before written history that was passed on by mouth by people who knew nothing of science and so made it understandable to uneducated mentalities. Myths. The 1992 and 4 Mississppi flood could morph into a world wide flood if it had happened in 15,000bc.

1 Reply

Obama steps away from Israel

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