6
   

Obama steps away from Israel

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 02:40 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:
I simply cannot believe that non-citizens should have the right to vote.
There are quite a few countries where voting rights are extended to resident non-citizens, mainly in local and elections.

roger wrote:
... the right to vote should never hinge on someone's subscribing to a particular religion.
Benjamin Disraeli could only begin his political career in 1837 because he had been converted to Anglicanism at the age of 12. Wink
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 02:41 pm
@roger,
I don't think you are clear on US history. Do you want to guess when Native American were allowed to become US citizens.

(Hint: it was much later than 1776).
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 02:43 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:
I simply cannot believe that non-citizens should have the right to vote.

Palestinian claims are pretty goofy.


roger wrote:
On the other hand, the right to vote should never hinge on someone's subscribing to a particular religion. One is a citizen or not a citizen.

The US is a secular democracy. Israel is a Jewish democracy.

Perhaps though Israeli law should restrict citizenship to practicing Jews.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 02:51 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Perhaps though Israeli law should restrict citizenship to practicing Jews.
So roughly two million Palestinian citizens, non-Arab Christians, and those listed as having no religion, should not only loose their voting rights but 1/4 of the population should loose their citizenship as well? (Perhaps even more more, since you said "practicing Jews".)
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 02:51 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I just want to be absolutely clear here.

You accept the forcible removal of all Palestinians based only on ethnicity from the state of Israel including the West Bank.

If this is what you are really saying, then I guess we disagree strongly.

Well, I would certainly accept it. Given the outrages that the Palestinians have perpetrated, they deserve no less.

But it wasn't what I was saying.

It was not what I gave as my example of a fair outcome.

And it was not what I said Israel should do moving forward.


maxdancona wrote:
I find it incredibly troubling that the victims of ethnic cleansing in the 19th and 20th ceturies are now perpetrating ethnic cleansing in the 21st

They aren't. The fact that the Palestinians deserve to have it happen does not mean that it is being done.


maxdancona wrote:
If this is not what you are saying, please correct me. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

If it did happen, I'd certainly enjoy watching it. Karmic justice at its very best.

But it is far from what I just gave as an example of a fair outcome. And it is far from what I just advised that Israel do.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 02:58 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Foofie,

Let's be honest here. There are many Jews (and non-Jews) who love Israel and yet are horrified by the Israeli occupation. It may even be that a majority of Jews living in America oppose the occupation.

You may have noticed that while Bernie Sanders did not support the expansion of the Settlements... Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee did. The extremist support for the occupation in the US is coming from Evangelical Christians. They believe that Israel must control what they see as Biblical Israel so that Jesus can come back. At that time these Christians believe that all of the good Jews will turn to Jesus and be saved to live forever in Christian heaven.

It is a rather perverse political marriage... It is not respectful of Judaism.

Ethnic cleansing doesn't fit too well with modern Democracy. Of course, it goes wonderfully well with Christian extremism.


Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that the West Bank, prior to the '67 war was part of Jordan. So weren't the Palestinians Jordanians, regardless of their waxing nostalgic about their historical roots? Note that prior to the modern state of Israel, there were always some religious Jews that chose to live under Ottoman rule, as long as they were in their Holy Land. So, only after the Balfour Declaration did Jews begin the effort of have a modern Zionist state. Regardless, when did a vanquished population in history decide to have their own state, when the prior government lost a war. It's called being the spoils of war. They were either expelled or assimilated. What seems to be occurring is that the losers if the '67 war (Jordan) had their citizens attempt to undermine the victors by claiming statehood. Alice In Wonderland, in my opinion.

Notice how Jordan never invited the West Bank Palestinians to come back to Jordan. Apparently, the King of Jordan had enough Palestinians in Jordan proper? It is a sticky wicket, but no one is focusing on the dirty little secret that Jewish families in Israel are only 70 years after the Holocaust, by dumb luck, they survived. Americans cannot often understand that to make Israel a child's birthday party, where everyone is a winner, is tantamount to not learning the lesson of a Europe that either considered Jews expendable, or happy that Hitler did what good Christians could not do. For more than one European Christian, Hitler took the sin of genocide on himself. Do you see an analogy with another religion?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 02:58 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
But it wasn't what I was saying.

It was not what I gave as my example of a fair outcome.


I don't see where you clearly gave your example of a fair example. There are Palestinians living in the land controlled by Israel whose families have been living their continuously for centuries.

There are three possibilities.

1) They are forcibly removed. This is ethnic cleansing and you have already suggested that you would accept this since you think that as an ethnic group, they all deserve it.

2) They are kept in Israel with no or few political rights.

3) They are kept in Israel as citizens.

You have already said that you accept the ethnic cleansing solution. But I don't see where you suggest another solution.

Do you accept #2 or #3... or is there another possibility I am not thinking of? I didn't see you suggest any other logical solution other than ethnic cleansing.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 03:00 pm
@Foofie,
If families have been living in the same land for hundreds and thousands of years, they will likely have had borders redrawn around them many times. That doesn't mean they will leave the place of their ancestry.

There are many examples of border changing around people who are living in their ancestral homes.

That doesn't justify ethnic cleansing.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 03:00 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
So roughly two million Palestinian citizens, non-Arab Christians, and those listed as having no religion, should not only loose their voting rights but 1/4 of the population should loose their citizenship as well? (Perhaps even more more, since you said "practicing Jews".)

Sounds good to me. But I'd also say that conversions to Judaism would be acceptable.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 03:03 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Let's be honest here. There are many Jews (and non-Jews) who love Israel and yet are horrified by the Israeli occupation.

They are called Self-Hating Jews. The same sorts also helped the Nazis murder their fellow Jews during the Holocaust.


maxdancona wrote:
It may even be that a majority of Jews living in America oppose the occupation.

Doubtful.


maxdancona wrote:
You may have noticed that while Bernie Sanders did not support the expansion of the Settlements... Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee did. The extremist support for the occupation in the US is coming from Evangelical Christians. They believe that Israel must control what they see as Biblical Israel so that Jesus can come back. At that time these Christians believe that all of the good Jews will turn to Jesus and be saved to live forever in Christian heaven.

It is a rather perverse political marriage... It is not respectful of Judaism.

The non-extremist support for the settlements comes from all the people who are exasperated over all the unfair attacks against Israel.

The Palestinians had their chance at a fair peace. They blew it. Now Israel gets to keep the land for themselves.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 03:10 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Sounds good to me. But I'd also say that conversions to Judaism would be acceptable.
There are already about 500,000 'second-class' Jews in Israel - mainly American and Russian Jews, who are not Jewish enough for Israel's supreme religious authority - but they are citizens.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 03:22 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I don't see where you clearly gave your example of a fair example.

Fair has a couple of different meanings here. There was once a solution that would be fair to both sides.

For an example of where I stated this first sort of fairness, I wrote this:
"A fair peace would have been Ehud Barak's Taba offer. Or Ehud Olmert's similar offer from sometime around 2008."

And this:
"A fair solution had Israel been treated fairly from the start? I'd say Ehud Barack's offer to the Palestinians at Taba was fair. And also Ehud Olmert's offer to the Palestinians from around 2008."



However given the horrendous way Israel has been treated in recent decades, today the only thing that could be considered fair is something that harms the Palestinians.

For an example of where I stated this latter sort of fairness, I wrote this:
"A fair solution now, given the outrageous way Israel has been treated all these years? Have Israel finish building the Security Fence, including around Jerusalem and in the other places where Israel is being pressured not to complete it. Have Israel declare the Security Fence as their official international border and annex all land west of the Fence.

East of the Fence, increase Israel's military presence in Areas B and C, so that when the Palestinians unilaterally declare their own state, Palestinian sovereignty is restricted to Area A alone.
"


maxdancona wrote:
Do you accept #2 or #3... or is there another possibility I am not thinking of? I didn't see you suggest any other logical solution other than ethnic cleansing.

There is another possibility that you're not thinking of:

Have Israel finish building the Security Fence, including around Jerusalem and in the other places where Israel is being pressured not to complete it. Have Israel declare the Security Fence as their official international border and annex all land west of the Fence.

East of the Fence, increase Israel's military presence in Areas B and C, so that when the Palestinians unilaterally declare their own state, Palestinian sovereignty is restricted to Area A alone.


maxdancona wrote:
I didn't see you suggest any other logical solution other than ethnic cleansing.

I did not suggest ethnic cleansing. I only stated that it would warm the cockles of my heart.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 03:29 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
There are already about 500,000 'second-class' Jews in Israel - mainly American and Russian Jews, who are not Jewish enough for Israel's supreme religious authority - but they are citizens.

I'm not familiar with this supreme religious authority, so cannot judge whether their standards are reasonable or not.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 05:46 pm
One thing that this international clarification on the settlements gives the Palestinians is the opportunity to pursue legal action against the Zionists, so this resolution may turn out to be a bit more than merely symbolic.

From the New York times article, A Defiant Israel Vows to Expand Its Settlements:
Quote:
Palestinian leaders made clear that they would use the resolution in international bodies to press their case against Israel. With the imprimatur of a United Nations finding of illegality, they said, they will campaign to require that other countries not just label products made in the settlements, but ban them.

“Now we can talk about the boycott of all settlements, the companies that work with them, et cetera, and actually take legal action against them if they continue to work with them,” Riad Malki, the Palestinian foreign minister, was quoted as saying by the Palestinian news media.

He outlined other steps the Palestinians could now take, using the resolution to press the International Criminal Court to prosecute Israeli leaders, file lawsuits on behalf of specific Palestinians displaced by settlements and urge the international authorities to determine whether Israel is violating the Geneva Conventions.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 06:28 pm
@InfraBlue,
At some point Israel will lose their patience and will finish the Security Fence, including around Jerusalem and all the other places where they are being pressured to not finish it, and then declare it as Israel's official international border.

Then we will all get to laugh at the Palestinians and their demented supporters as they wail and sob that "that wasn't where they wanted the border to be drawn".

Well too bad. You had your chances to negotiate. You blew it.

Now keep pecking at Israel until they lose their patience. I could use some entertainment.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 07:34 pm
@oralloy,
Oralloy, you are talking as if there really is some Angry Powerful deity behind Israel. This is a myth.

Israel is just a country. Most of the developed democratic world understands that Israel is acting against democratic norms. The support of the US is what gives it leverage but even that has limits. The fact is that international isolation hurts Israel the same way it hurt South Africa under apartheid.

Israel is not infallible and they suffer from shunning the international community. Even hardliners like Netanyahu understand this.

That is why this 14-0 vote that has the support of most of the world's democracies is so important.
McGentrix
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 08:12 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that the West Bank, prior to the '67 war was part of Jordan. So weren't the Palestinians Jordanians, regardless of their waxing nostalgic about their historical roots? Note that prior to the modern state of Israel, there were always some religious Jews that chose to live under Ottoman rule, as long as they were in their Holy Land. So, only after the Balfour Declaration did Jews begin the effort of have a modern Zionist state. Regardless, when did a vanquished population in history decide to have their own state, when the prior government lost a war. It's called being the spoils of war. They were either expelled or assimilated. What seems to be occurring is that the losers if the '67 war (Jordan) had their citizens attempt to undermine the victors by claiming statehood. Alice In Wonderland, in my opinion.

Notice how Jordan never invited the West Bank Palestinians to come back to Jordan. Apparently, the King of Jordan had enough Palestinians in Jordan proper? It is a sticky wicket, but no one is focusing on the dirty little secret that Jewish families in Israel are only 70 years after the Holocaust, by dumb luck, they survived. Americans cannot often understand that to make Israel a child's birthday party, where everyone is a winner, is tantamount to not learning the lesson of a Europe that either considered Jews expendable, or happy that Hitler did what good Christians could not do. For more than one European Christian, Hitler took the sin of genocide on himself. Do you see an analogy with another religion?


I'd like to reiterate what Foofie has said here. The native Americans are on government granted reservations because they lost a war. The Palestinians are on lands granted to them because they lost a war. There is ZERO comparison between what's happening to and around the Palestinians that can even be mildly compared to the Holocaust.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 08:24 pm
@McGentrix,
Of course, Native Americans are not stuck on reservations any more. They can go and live wherever they want. I know you know that, but wanted to clarify for anyone else that shows up.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 08:29 pm
@McGentrix,
So it's okay to marginalize them and take their land forever.
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2016 08:29 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Of course, Native Americans are not stuck on reservations any more. They can go and live wherever they want. I know you know that, but wanted to clarify for anyone else that shows up.


Right. But, many do still live on "native land" and reservations. Most of the Casinos are on "native land" to avoid Federal taxes.
0 Replies
 
 

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