192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
layman
 
  -2  
Wed 17 May, 2017 11:54 am
Many on the left are now basically conceding that there's no proof Trump committed any crime, but insist that you don't have to commit a crime to be impeached.

As I said before, all this impeachment, on any possible pretense, talk is just the product of cheese-eaters' self-delusory confirmation biases.

The Republicans control the house, senate, and presidency for the first time in many years. Some Republicans seem to hate Trump, too. But if you think that even those republican haters are going to vote to impeach and convict the president, based on actions that aren't even prohibited by law, you're completely out of touch with reality.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Wed 17 May, 2017 11:59 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
The Espionage Act is blatantly unconstitutional...


I guess I missed the news reporting that the Limey-ass Guardian has been appointed to replace the U.S. Sumpreme Court, eh, Walt?
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  5  
Wed 17 May, 2017 12:00 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I'm sure the Coast Guard class was deeply moved by his bitch and moan address. Poor, poor Trump. It probably drives him crazy that Putin can 'alledgedly' have perceived troublemakers disfigured or killed.......life is so unfair.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Wed 17 May, 2017 12:19 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
The real danger, which got far less attention, was that Trump might use the draconian 100-year-old Espionage Act to target reporters with prosecution for publishing classified information.


These Limey-ass U.S constitution wannabe experts might be surprised to learn that this federal statute AINT the espionage act, and it aint 100 years old (it was last amended in 1996), eh?

Quote:
18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

(a) Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 17 May, 2017 12:21 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
people who know far more about the law than you do disagree with you

No one who knows more about the law than me disagrees with me.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 17 May, 2017 12:24 pm
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:
High crimes and misdemeanors are not necessarily felonies.

So after ensuring that Bill Clinton got away with committing the actual legal definition of obstruction of justice, the Democrats now want to go after Trump for violating an imaginary made up definition of obstruction of justice?

All the liberals are doing is proving that they are deranged kooks. I've seen that about liberals for a long time. But it's going to become more and more obvious to ordinary people.
layman
 
  -2  
Wed 17 May, 2017 12:39 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

All the liberals are doing is proving that they are deranged kooks... it's going to become more and more obvious to ordinary people.


True dat. They're only fooling themselves, not rational american citizens.
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  5  
Wed 17 May, 2017 12:43 pm
Senate Intelligence Committee invites Comey to testify publicly (CBS NEWS)
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  5  
Wed 17 May, 2017 12:51 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I found the following to be informative, I don't claim to understand all of it. In fact I am saving it to keep reading it.

Lawfare/Another Bomb Drops: Initial Thoughts on Trump Asking Comey to Kill the Flynn Investigation
layman
 
  -2  
Wed 17 May, 2017 01:02 pm
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:
Quote:
High crimes and misdemeanors are such immoral and unlawful acts as are nearly allied and equal in guilt to felony, yet, owing to some technical circumstance, do I not fall within the definition of "felony." State " v. Knapp, 6 Conn. 417, 16 Am. Dec. 68
The Law Dictionary


This "online" legal dictionary doesn't seem to be that authoritative, eh? It only cites a 200 year old State case (not the U.S. Supreme Court) as it's sole "definition."

Even so, this ancient state case says that the behavior must be just as bad, legally and immorally, as to be equivalent to a felony. It's not just "something I don't like."
layman
 
  -2  
Wed 17 May, 2017 01:11 pm
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

I found the following to be informative, I don't claim to understand all of it. In fact I am saving it to keep reading it.

Lawfare/Another Bomb Drops: Initial Thoughts on Trump Asking Comey to Kill the Flynn Investigation


Bomb, eh? Unfortunately this article starts out, in it's very first sentence, by re-asserting a false claim made by the NYT . The entire essay seems to accept that false premise as being true:

Quote:
The New York Times is reporting that President Donald Trump asked then-FBI Director James Comey to drop the FBI’s investigation into former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn.


This is a blatant attempt at revisionism. According to Comey's memo (as reported) Trump did NOT "ask" him to drop the investigation.
revelette1
 
  3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 01:31 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Even so, this ancient state case says that the behavior must be just as bad, legally and immorally, as to be equivalent to a felony. It's not just "something I don't like."


Something about the circumstance make high crimes and misdemeanors not fall under a felony. I am betting influencing the head of the FBI to let the inquiries of Flynn go would fall under those circumstances and be as equal to a felony.

First though the memos has got to be verified which they are looking to do with having Comey come testify.
glitterbag
 
  3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 01:31 pm
The DOW has dropped 316.35 points, but the closing bell doesn't ring until Four PM.......don't look at your 401k's today.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  5  
Wed 17 May, 2017 01:32 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
According to Comey's memo (as reported) Trump did NOT "ask" him to drop the investigation.

What exactly, then, did Trump do in regard to his entreaty to Comey, which, according to the Times, went, “I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go, he is a good guy. I hope you can let this go.”?
layman
 
  -3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 01:36 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

What exactly, then, did Trump do


He did "exactly" what it said he did. He expressed his personal "hopes," no more. Why don't you read recent posts in this thread which show this, eh?

Hint: He didn't "demand" that Comey stop the investigation.

He didn't "order" Comey to drop the investigation.

He didn't "ask" Comey to drop the investigation.

He didn't "threaten" Comey in any way.

He implicitly conceded that it was completely up to Comey to do what he thought was right.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Wed 17 May, 2017 01:36 pm
@revelette1,
As has been noted by giujohn the term is somewhat vague and likely deliberately so in order to allow the Senate to not be tightly restrained by the technicalities of a statue, but I think you are wrong in reading that an illegality would not be required.

First of all, if the House is held by the president's party (as it is with Trump) there is no way he would be impeached without clear evidence of a serious violation of a significant statute.

Even if the opposition party holds the House they are not likely to attempt impeachment without clear evidence of illegality in the sense of how most ordinary people (would understand the term) (Although at this time in America, all sorts of outrageous things are possible).

No matter how immoral and offensive anyone might have considered Bill Clinton's fellatio in the Oval Office, the Republican House would never have proceeded with Impeachment if that's all they had. The evidence of perjury was crucial and even it didn't sit right with a great many Americans.

If the Dems held the house and attempted to impeach Trump solely on the basis of what we know about either the Comey meeting or the Russian meeting, the American public would, in my opinion, react vehemently if not violently. A few lawyers who can fashion a possible argument for obstruction of justice based on an alleged memo that no one has seen and even if it exists might lead to a he said/he said contest isn't even close to what would be needed to make a case most Americans would be willing to consider.

This isn't to say that the Dems wouldn't try it or wouldn't be successful given the partisan hysteria of DC, but to then expect even a Dem controlled Senate to go along? No way (at least I sincerely hope not).

There have been numerous call for the production of the Comey memo...if it exists. I concur with them. To some extent it would be playing into the strategy of a Trump Opposition that is prepared to constantly throw false or hyped allegations from even dubious sources, against the wall in the hope something will stick, but if that is the Opposition strategy, the only way to put a stop to it is to reveal the full extent of its pernicious nature.

Clearly, if the memo cannot be produced the NYT should suffer a significant blow to their credibility and reputation. What are they going to argue? Their "reliable" source managed to lose or destroy it shortly after leaking its existence and contents?

Even if it can be produced, its mere existence isn't a smoking gun that will take down the president. While it is unlikely that Comey would have written a memo about a conversation that didn't happen, the fact that there is a memo isn't proof positive that one occurred.

Obviously the content of the memo will be critical as well. It might prove what has been suggested that Trump was merely trying to suggest to Comey that he might find a way to ease up on good guy like Flynn. (Comey supposedly agreed with Trump that Flynn is a good guy). While you can always find an "expert" to make a case for just about anything, most of the legal opinions I've so far read, are that simply advocating discretion on behalf of a friend or colleague is not obstruction. What would be required would be evidence that Trump ordered Comey to drop the investigation or somehow threatened him with some consequence (firing?) if he did not.

If the memo exists and its contents are so explosive that an effort to obstruct can reasonably be inferred, a very important question must be asked. Why didn't Comey tell anyone? Virtually everyone agrees that if faced with a clearly deliberate effort by the president to obstruct an investigation, it's almost inconceivable that the FBI Director would not feel it his duty to bring such action to the attention of others, whether in the DOJ or Congress. Some have even suggested that Comey would have been legally bound to do so and by not, might be criminally charged.

Federal institutions have become worse than sieves, and even if Comey felt too intimidated to directly report the president's efforts to Congress or the DOJ, does anyone believe he would have felt restrained from leaking it to the media? How an FBI Director could be so intimidated is difficult to imagine too. Did Trump threaten him with his death and the deaths of his family members, or does anyone believe that Comey is so lacking in character and principle that he would ignore criminal acts of the president to preserve his job?

While they are at it, Congress should find out for certain if conversations in the Oval Office are being taped, and if so demand copies from the day Trump met with Comey.

Technology is such that the authenticity of any tapes can be verified. Editing attempts can reliably discovered.

If there is no memo or it is innocuous and/or a tape of the Trump/Comey conversation contains nothing about the Flynn investigation or only a simple statement and question like "Flynn's such a good guy, a real patriot. Are you sure his investigation has to continue?" the sleazy strategy of the NYT reporter and his editors will be exposed.

I can appreciate any president's desire to protect executive privilege for himself and the office, and when you back off on any privilege or protection you have, you weaken it for the future, but it is crucial that the White House put not only the Comey story to bed, but expose the Opposition's strategy so that public reaction and pressure might put an end to it. At the very least it will finish off what little credibility the MSM still has.

And if Trump did try and obstruct the Flynn investigation and threatened Comey with any consequence if it continued, we obviously need to know that too. An authenticate tape could be a smoking gun or disprove claims entirely. The memo won't tell us for certain unless there were witnesses to the conversation who confirm its content, but I understand Trump cleared his office of other visitors before concluding his conversation with Comey. Still, even though the memo cannot be the smoking gun it can be exculpatory and if it doesn't even exist...? In any case it is absurd and harmful to be in a situation where members of Congress and prominent members of the MSM are flinging all sorts of extreme allegations and conclusions based on the account of an anonymous source reading excerpts of a memo no one has even seen to a NYT reporter over the phone. Is this really the way we want our government to run?

Clearly, the Democrats and the MSM are all too willing to base very serious charges on the most flimsy evidence, but there's no reason they should simply be allowed to continue doing so and they will if Trump doesn't confront it or encourage Republicans in Congress to do so. If he doesn't, even valid reasons concerning executive privilege, will understandably be perceived as part of a cover-up. The Opposition will continue with their strategy until the Trump White House dies the death of a thousand cuts.

Personally, I've reached a point where my support for Trump is on shaky ground. If he doesn't grab the bull by the horns and force the issue to a conclusion that can't be denied it will tell me that he is either a) Dirty as claimed, or b) such an egotistical fool that he can't recognize the danger his administration and his agenda are in. Clearly a is worse than b, but both are bad. It may be unfair that the Administration must get sucked into the machinations of the Opposition, but that's DC and if he has any chance of draining the swamp and transforming the DC culture he has to do a lot more than he has thus far in substantively confronting his accusers. Tweeting childish insults is certainly not the way.

Britt Hume was on TV last night and made the comment that he has never seen this level of hysteria and vitriol in the response of the MSM and the opposition party to any president. If you dismiss Hume as a FOX hack you reveal your foolishness. He's been around a long time, seen a lot, and is as much of a straight shooter as someone like Bob Woodward. He added to his observation that while Trump's treatment is grossly unfair, it is what it is and the president has to start properly responding to it, and more importantly, stop the unforced errors and self-inflicted wounds.

Some will argue that Trump can't win, that an Opposition willing to resort to unethical tactics are creating pitfalls that can't be avoided. Baloney, and if he can't find a way to win (especially when half the battle is to stop shooting himself in the foot) he should resign. Like it or not, fair or unfair, these incessant attacks and the WH's poor handling of responses will prevent him from getting anything done and will eventually erode the support of his base. The notion that his supporters wouldn't care if he shot someone in Times Square may have had some validity in the past, but it can't continue and especially if the person he's shooting is himself.

I really couldn't care less about Trump the person. I don't like Trump the public person, but I don't care about that either. What I care about is the current state of this nation and the dangerous hybrid leviathan of a corrupt political Establishment, a news media that has abandoned any pretense of objectivity and ethics, and a growing Deep State. I never believed he was even close to the champion we need, but he was the only one available. With his team of advisers and measure of self-discipline I believe he' capable of being a good president and making some important changes, but someone needs to smash the recording of "My Way" that plays in his head because if he continues on his current path he is going to blow it and not just for his presidency, but for anti-establishment conservatives and future efforts to right the American ship.



glitterbag
 
  3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 01:38 pm
@layman,
today I find you extremely entertaining.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Wed 17 May, 2017 01:40 pm
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:
I am betting influencing the head of the FBI to let the inquiries of Flynn go would fall under those circumstances and be as equal to a felony.

I recommend not placing any money on that bet.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Wed 17 May, 2017 01:43 pm
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

today I find you extremely entertaining.


Entertain this, eh?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Wed 17 May, 2017 01:55 pm
@layman,
You hide and watch, though. Soon the endlessly repeated false narrative will transmute into the assertion that Trump "demanded" that Comey desist. Then it will morph into the claim that he "ordered" Comey to immediately cease the investigation.

Best to take it one small step at a time, eh?
0 Replies
 
 

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