192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
MontereyJack
 
  5  
Wed 17 May, 2017 07:09 am
@giujohn,
people who know far more about the law than you do disagree with you
McGentrix
 
  -3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 07:22 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

people who know far more about the law than you do disagree with you


And there are a bunch that agrees. /shrug

Does that matter or change anything? They aren't here.
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 07:58 am
I have been trying to look up what exactly high crimes and misdemeanors means in terms of impeachment proceedings. All I found so far is on Wiki. I got other things to do today but, from what I read, it doesn't necessarily mean there has to be an illegality in the sense of how most ordinary people (not professionals) would understand the term. Am I right?
giujohn
 
  -3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 08:06 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

people who know far more about the law than you do disagree with you


You don't have to be Clarence Darrow to figure this out although I understand why YOU
would think so.

Please name these noted legal experts and their learned opinions for all of us to see.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  -2  
Wed 17 May, 2017 08:11 am
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

I have been trying to look up what exactly high crimes and misdemeanors means in terms of impeachment proceedings. All I found so far is on Wiki. I got other things to do today but, from what I read, it doesn't necessarily mean there has to be an illegality in the sense of how most ordinary people (not professionals) would understand the term. Am I right?


I would look to Blacks Law Dictionary or another respected publication...not wiki.

But ultimately it is the Senate that defines what it's.

The framers meant it to be purposely vague. Also the word "high" in this times refered to violations perpetrated by high officials not the level if severity.
revelette1
 
  4  
Wed 17 May, 2017 08:18 am
@giujohn,
Thanks

Quote:
High crimes and misdemeanors are such immoral and unlawful acts as are nearly allied and equal in guilt to felony, yet, owing to some technical circumstance, do I not fall within the definition of "felony." State " v. Knapp, 6 Conn. 417, 16 Am. Dec. 68

Law Dictionary: What is HIGH CRIMES? definition of HIGH CRIMES (Black's Law Dictionary)


The Law Dictionary
revelette1
 
  4  
Wed 17 May, 2017 08:37 am
Quote:
Pressure intensifies for GOP to step up oversight of Trump administration

Congressional Republicans are increasing pressure on the Trump administration to produce documents related to the latest string of controversies involving President Trump, amid flagging confidence in the White House and a growing sense that scandal is overtaking the presidency.

A key House committee asked the FBI for records of communications
between Trump and the agency’s former director James B. Comey on Tuesday night following reports that the president sought to shut down a federal investigation into former White House national security adviser Michael Flynn.

Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah), the chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, requested the documents be delivered by May 24 and said he would subpoena the information if necessary.

In an interview, Chaffetz said he wasn’t prejudging the case. “I simply want to see the documentation,” he told The Post. “We will let the evidence take us where it does.”

His request came in response to media reports disclosing the existence of a memo written by Comey, whom Trump fired last week, alleging that Trump asked him to end the Flynn investigation during a meeting at the White House in February.


WP
giujohn
 
  -4  
Wed 17 May, 2017 08:48 am
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

Quote:
Pressure intensifies for GOP to step up oversight of Trump administration

Congressional Republicans are increasing pressure on the Trump administration to produce documents related to the latest string of controversies involving President Trump, amid flagging confidence in the White House and a growing sense that scandal is overtaking the presidency.

A key House committee asked the FBI for records of communications
between Trump and the agency’s former director James B. Comey on Tuesday night following reports that the president sought to shut down a federal investigation into former White House national security adviser Michael Flynn.

Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah), the chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, requested the documents be delivered by May 24 and said he would subpoena the information if necessary.

In an interview, Chaffetz said he wasn’t prejudging the case. “I simply want to see the documentation,” he told The Post. “We will let the evidence take us where it does.”

His request came in response to media reports disclosing the existence of a memo written by Comey, whom Trump fired last week, alleging that Trump asked him to end the Flynn investigation during a meeting at the White House in February.


WP


I could tell the above was from a biased liberal rag even before checking the source.

It is clear Chaffetz's motivation is to put to rest this obvious ploy by yellow jouralists at the WP to bring down a president and relive the glory days of Watergate. The problem is those were real jounalists...nowadays all that's there are partisan hacks.
layman
 
  -3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 09:03 am
A few excerpts from an ABC article which doesn't seem quite so anxious to play judge, jury, and executioner as the rest of the MSN:

Quote:
Would Trump request to end Flynn probe have broken law?

WHAT IS OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE?

Simply put, it's preventing authorities — such as police or prosecutors — from doing the work of investigating and applying the law.

IS SUCH A REQUEST OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE?

Criminally speaking, obstructing justice applies to a variety of scenarios — like threatening a juror, retaliating against a witness, or impeding a grand jury proceeding — and Trump's alleged request would not fit neatly into any of them, legal experts said

To bring an obstruction charge, a prosecutor would have to show the president was trying to "corruptly" influence the investigation, and proving an improper intent can be hard.

Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University, said Trump would have some lines of defense. "The president can claim he was raising an issue of concern for a longtime associate," Turley said.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/qa-trump-request-end-flynn-probe-broken-law-47451579

As the Wapo story itself noted, people, especially defense attorneys, try to persuade authorities to drop investigations every day. Presenting a request, or a persuasive argument, is not PREVENTING an investigation or actively trying to "impede" it.

If a wife asks cops to please stop investigating her husband, no one would try to accuse her of "obstructing justice." Her request can be easily ignored, and she has done nothing to impede, prevent, or interfere with an investigation. This would be especially true if she honestly believed her husband was completely innocent.

Here, according to the contents of Comey's alleged memo, Trump did not even ask him to drop the investigation, let alone order or demand it. He didn't threaten him, directly or indirectly, if he didn't. He merely shared his "hopes" with Comey, and implicitly assumed that Comey was completely free to do what he thought best. There is nothing illegal about this, whoever does it.

revelette1
 
  3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 09:05 am
@giujohn,
We will see how it unfolds.
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  5  
Wed 17 May, 2017 09:07 am
@layman,
High crimes and misdemeanors are not necessarily felonies.

Put it another way. My boss ask to see my expenses report. Do I take it as just a friendly suggestion? Trump was Comey's boss with the capability of firing him.
glitterbag
 
  5  
Wed 17 May, 2017 09:23 am
@revelette1,
The Russians are getting far too familiar with the White House, they used to try to be a tad subtle but they seem to be almost galloping into view, overly chummy and ridiculously obvious about making themselves at home. I think it's just a matter of time before they start measuring for drapes and picking out upholstery fabric for the couches in the Oval office. Trump will hand them the tape measure.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 09:24 am
@layman,
If we could not only read the transcript Putin offered but listen to the recorcings done by Trump as well ... it's not what you say, but how you say it.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 09:27 am
@giujohn,
giujohn wrote:

As a police officer you learn that words matter in the legal process. For instance, on a traffic stop there is a difference between me saying, " I'd like to look in your trunk, could you open it please?" and "I'm going to look in your trunk, open it now." Can you tell which search is illegal? (As Mr. Rogers says, "I know you can!)


Right, John, a cop has every right to request permission to search, but he cannot DEMAND it without probable cause.

Some people aint that bright though, including some cops. I have had a cop threaten me with prosecution for "obstruction of justice" when I refused to give him permission to search my crib.

He was about as illogical and ignorant as some here appear to be. I just told him to get the **** off of my front porch and slammed the door in his face.
layman
 
  -3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 10:07 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

He was about as illogical and ignorant as some here appear to be. I just told him to get the **** off of my front porch and slammed the door in his face.


What happened next was kinda humorous, and may share a few parallels with this case, even if it's not strictly relevant to this topic, so I'll share it.

Needless to say, the cop was furious (like Comey). I watched him through my door window. He just stood there, kinda shaking, for about 20 seconds. Then, finally, he walked off my porch toward his squad car, which was parked in the street, blocking one lane of traffic.

When he got to his car, he didn't get into it. He just stood there for another 30 seconds or so.

Then he started walking toward my crib again. Just as he got to my front steps, he stopped again, and just stood there motionless for 10-20 seconds. Then he turned around and headed back to his car.

But, once again, he didn't get in it. He hesitated, stood there, then started back to toward my crib again. But this time he stopped again, after only a few steps, and just stood there.

He did that one more time, then finally got in his car and left.

No matter how pissed off and out for revenge you might be, and no matter how badly you would like to charge someone with "obstruction of justice," there comes a time when ya gotta realize it whan ya aint got a leg to stand on, eh? This cop finally came to that realization.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -3  
Wed 17 May, 2017 11:03 am
@MontereyJack,
Let's look at the weaknesses in trying to make a case for "obstruction of justice" which Wapo itself presents, eh? Your post was so long and run-together that it makes it difficult to filter through.

Quote:
“It depends on what he said and how he said it,” said Edward B. MacMahon Jr., another criminal defense lawyer. “I call all the time and ask prosecutors to stop investigations. It just depends on how it’s done.”

The laws governing obstruction of justice require prosecutors to show a person “corruptly” tried to influence a probe — meaning investigators have to find some evidence of what a person was thinking when taking a particular action.

That is important, analysts said, because if the president were merely asserting that “he personally knows the target of the investigation and he’s just trying to provide his two cents,” that might not present him any legal problems, Cohen said.

“The question is, if the president committed the crime or attempted to commit the crime of obstruction, and you serve the Constitution and not the president, why didn’t you say something about this before you were fired?” Cohen said.

Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Wed 17 May, 2017 11:17 am
@layman,
How the other side thinks: Writers from across the political spectrum consider the consequences of James B. Comey’s memo on his meetings with President Trump, collected by the NYT:

Right and Left React to Comey’s Memo on Trump Meeting
layman
 
  -2  
Wed 17 May, 2017 11:23 am
The FBI claimed to have amassed a mountain of evidence against the Clinton's that they used the Clinton Foundation as an instrument of "influence peddling."

Even so Loretta Lynch steadfastly refused to allow subpoenas to be issued to assist the FBI's investigation, and refused to allow the formation of a grand jury to hear the evidence against the Clintons.

Many FBI agents were said to be thoroughly disgusted. For some damn reason, I didn't hear the cheese-eaters screaming about Lynch trying to stop an investigation then, eh?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -4  
Wed 17 May, 2017 11:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Thanks for the link, Walt. It's a good one. They present excerpts and links to opinions purportedly from the left, right, and center. Here's a couple from the "center" that reinforce what I've been saying:

Quote:
Noah Feldman is a professor of constitutional and international law at Harvard University. In this column, he explains how difficult it would be to bring criminal charges in this situation..."With the evidence now available, it’s extremely unlikely that an ordinary prosecutor could convict Trump.”

====

The Lawfare blog has become a reliable, centrist source of quick but thorough reactions and analysis for the news out of the White House. "Obstruction convictions are difficult to obtain. Despite broad statutory language, to obtain a criminal conviction, the government must demonstrate an attempt to “influence, obstruct, or impede” the administration of the law in a pending proceeding. "

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  6  
Wed 17 May, 2017 11:46 am
Quote:
Look at the way I have been treated lately, especially by the media. No politician in history, and I say this with great surety, has been treated worse or more unfairly. You can't let them get you down, you can't let the critics and the naysayers get in the way of your dreams.


Above comments by Trump, today at the United States Coast Guard Academy.

An opinion in The Guardian: The Trump news you missed: he asked Comey to jail journalists
Quote:
The real danger, which got far less attention, was that Trump might use the draconian 100-year-old Espionage Act to target reporters with prosecution for publishing classified information. Less than six months into his presidency, we now have reason to believe this is a distinct possibility.

The Espionage Act is blatantly unconstitutional, which is part of the reason why every justice department in modern history has avoided reaching the point of prosecution against a newspaper. But it has long been a specter hanging over journalists: if you read just the text of the law, it is being violated almost daily by reporters at every major paper in the country. (And it’s not just journalists: the law is so wildly broad that just by reading the New York Times, you are arguably guilty.)
 

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