192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
revelette1
 
  4  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 01:26 pm
@Baldimo,
I don't know, you would have to ask same sex couples who were denied services why they didn't sue and so get into the news. (If the video is legit) (didn't watch it) In any event, the Muslim bakers would probably lose in a lawsuit as well, as well they should.

Baldimo
 
  -2  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 01:47 pm
@revelette1,
I think the point is that Christian bakers were targeted more than anything else, the left won't go after Muslim, they are a protected class. I wonder how many bakers the gay couples went to before "hitting it rich" with a Christian baker. I find the whole thing suspect and targeted.
revelette1
 
  5  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 02:09 pm
@Baldimo,
I'm sure you do. Personally I find it hard to believe most Muslims would be stupid enough to bring attention to themselves like that. But, hey, everybody has opinions.
hightor
 
  8  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 02:15 pm
@Baldimo,
"Muslim bakeries" are few and far between in flyover country so most gay couples probably wouldn't have the opportunity to get discriminated against whereas it's pretty easy to find an evangelical or fundamentalist in comparison. This episode took place in Dearborn, which has a large Muslim population unlike Arkansas or Colorado; it's interesting that a sting was required to find the offending bakeries. Anyway, if a bakery is exposed this way, it should be fined and compelled to obey the law. No one's "religious freedom" is being violated — those who claims religious persecution because they have to pipe "Ben and Steve Forever" on a cake are making a mockery of the religious freedom clause in the 1st amendment.
Baldimo
 
  -2  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 02:27 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
"Muslim bakeries" are few and far between in flyover country so most gay couples probably wouldn't have the opportunity to get discriminated against whereas it's pretty easy to find an evangelical or fundamentalist in comparison.

You sound pretty sure about this statement? I don't think there as many "evangelical or fundamentalist" bakers as you seem to think there are.

Quote:
This episode took place in Dearborn, which has a large Muslim population unlike Arkansas or Colorado;

I can't speak for Arkansas but I live in CO, have you been here to see the Muslim population? It is larger than you think. You must also think cows still walk the streets of Denver...

Quote:
it's interesting that a sting was required to find the offending bakeries.

That's the odd part of this whole thing. Those people just happen to walk into those bakeries and find an issue? It reeks of targeting. In all of the stories about Christian bakers, there was never any mention of them doing a sting, but it's odd that they found some Christians to sue on their first cake buying trip...

Quote:
Anyway, if a bakery is exposed this way, it should be fined and compelled to obey the law. No one's "religious freedom" is being violated — those who claims religious persecution because they have to pipe "Ben and Steve Forever" on a cake are making a mockery of the religious freedom clause in the 1st amendment.

There shouldn't be a law in the first place, it's stupid to make people do things against their beliefs. I can tell a majority of people who agree with the destruction of a business don't have the first understanding of what religious freedom is, unless it meets their non-religious meanings of what religious freedom is. I'm not a Christian and don't follow the religion but I don't think people should be forced to do anything they don't agree with when it comes to their own business. You guys act as if there is only 1 baker per town.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 02:35 pm
@revelette1,
I doubt there's that much demand for same sex wedding baklavas, or any wedding baklava for that matter.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  5  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 02:51 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

for example, if your special, can you be very special??


bigly, 100 percent Laughing
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  4  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 03:28 pm
@Baldimo,
Quote:
You sound pretty sure about this statement?

Admittedly it's a guess based on the relative populations of conservative Christians and Muslims in the USA.
Quote:
You must also think cows still walk the streets of Denver...

Poked along by Massai herdsmen...I was really thinking about the hinterlands, not metropolitan areas — I realize that there are big demographic changes going on and had originally put "Idaho" but changed it to Colorado because that was the scene of the court battle cited in the article.
Quote:
It reeks of targeting.

Some instances might have been but factual information is needed. I'm not sure it matters, legally.
Quote:

There shouldn't be a law in the first place, it's stupid to make people do things against their beliefs.

It's even stupider to allow people to claim they are exempt from civil authority because of their religious beliefs. Where does it end? It's against my beliefs to vaccinate my child. It's against my beliefs to pay taxes. It's against my beliefs to register my car. It's against my beliefs to sell cosmetic products to unmarried women.

Religious liberty guarantees freedom to worship any god and belong to any church but that's a far cry from just allowing any sort of behavior outside a religious context based on something as subjective as one's spiritual beliefs. Part of living in a pluralistic society is knowing where the boundaries between the public, private, and personal spheres are and not trying to force society at large to conform to the your own views. There are plenty of religious communities that recognize this and make the effort to separate themselves from the society at large to avoid this kind of conflict.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  3  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 04:03 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
This view seems to be shared by a growing number of people. Here's Mitt Romney's 2012 campaign adviser:

Quote:
Senior Republican adviser says something is ‘deeply wrong’ with Donald Trump

Comments follow what adviser described as ‘the most bizarre press conference in history’

A senior Republican adviser said there is something “deeply wrong” about President Donald Trump after watching his first solo press conference in office.

"Something is deeply wrong with our president and the country is in danger," wrote Gabriel Schoenfeld, former adviser to Mitt Romney during the 2012 presidential campaign, in an op-ed for New York Daily News.

"The danger will only be averted when the Republican leadership in Congress publicly acknowledges what they and the rest of the entire world already know: America's president is not wearing any clothes."

Mr Schoenfeld listed the controversies that Mr Trump has sparked or dealt with during four weeks in the White House. This included his immigration executive order being blocked by a federal court, his open feud with intelligence agencies and his national security adviser Michael Flynn resigning over his calls to the Russian ambassador.

The Republican adviser concluded that the President was "delusional" if he really believed his statements that his government was a "fine-tuned machine", or that his Muslim ban had enjoyed a "perfect roll-out".

[...]
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 04:03 pm
@blatham,
By now my aunt Nan would be 116 years old. She had quite an interesting life. Before my Disney uncle, she had taught at some island off of Washington state, in an old school house; I'm guessing circa 1918. She married the editor of an early magazine called College Humor. He died of TB and she was quarantined herself for some time, I think in Arizona.. I gotta say I liked and loved her way more than any other aunts. Waaaaay more. In some other a2k threads, I called her my hundred year old aunt. Discerning reader, among other assets. Her second husband Paul wasn't bad either - always took us cousins out for ice cream. Those were the days.
camlok
 
  0  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 04:06 pm
@ossobucotemp,
You are right, those were the days.
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 04:26 pm
Back to Spud, today's name by me for Trump.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 04:47 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

This view seems to be shared by a growing number of people.


What people? The ones in Europe?

Wow. Color me surprised.
nimh
 
  2  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 06:52 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Given what was in them, I was definitely fine with those leaks. The timing was stupid, but we're learning more about that every day.

__

As noted in many places, many times, the problem is the fire, not the alarm.


Counter-argument:

America's spies anonymously took down Michael Flynn. That is deeply worrying.

A taste:

Quote:
The United States is much better off without Michael Flynn serving as national security adviser. But no one should be cheering the way he was brought down.[...]

[N]o matter what Flynn did, it is simply not the role of the deep state to target a man working in one of the political branches of the government by dishing to reporters about information it has gathered clandestinely. [...]

The chaotic, dysfunctional Trump White House is placing the entire system under enormous strain. That's bad. But [...] as Eli Lake of Bloomberg News put it in an important article following Flynn's resignation,

Quote:
Normally intercepts of U.S. officials and citizens are some of the most tightly held government secrets. This is for good reason. Selectively disclosing details of private conversations monitored by the FBI or NSA gives the permanent state the power to destroy reputations from the cloak of anonymity. This is what police states do.


Those cheering the deep state torpedoing of Flynn are saying, in effect, that a police state is perfectly fine so long as it helps to bring down Trump.

It is the role of Congress to investigate the president and those who work for him. If Congress resists doing its duty, out of a mixture of self-interest and cowardice, the American people have no choice but to try and hold the government's feet to the fire, demanding action with phone calls, protests, and, ultimately, votes. That is a democratic response to the failure of democracy.

Sitting back and letting shadowy, unaccountable agents of espionage do the job for us simply isn't an acceptable alternative.

Down that path lies the end of democracy in America.
nimh
 
  6  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 07:05 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

Traditional politics also stopped the relegation of black people to second class status.

"Traditional politics" only moved to stop that relegation when it was well and truly forced to, and it dragged its heels all the way. It doesn't deserve the credit. The credit goes to the "radical" activists who started the fight, and pushed it along at every step, and to the prolonged mass resistance by black people and their allies. It's their fight for civil rights which forced the traditional politicians to act.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 07:14 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Michael Moore had written along similar lines when he prediced Trump's victory one month before the election. Moore's got his finger on the country's pulse alright.

Well, part of the country. An important part of the country. Also electorally speaking, obviously. And a part of the country that was ignored for too long. All of that. But still only a part.

(Sorry if this comes across as nitpicking. I'm all for paying more attention to the kinds of life perspectives the mainstream Democrats and liberals have neglected too long. But I'm also wary of the reification of a specific part of the country as "the real America" or stuff like that.)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  4  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 07:18 pm
@McGentrix,
Judging on the polls, plenty of Americans who agree. Gallup now has Trump's job approval at 38% approve, 56% disapprove. That's as bad as the very worst rating Obama ever got during his presidency.

[Inb4 "but the polls were proven all wrong in the election!": the national polls captured the popular vote pretty well. And even the worst of the state polls weren't off by as much as the kind of negative spread Trump's now facing. So not much ground there to hand-wave away numbers like these.]
blatham
 
  3  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 07:24 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
Yes, he does so to keep his admirers in the know. This is his personal blog now and he only wants to read the positive comments.

Thus it follows logically that I have neither you nor Finn on ignore.
blatham
 
  2  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 07:28 pm
@ossobucotemp,
I regret I never met her.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 07:31 pm
@nimh,
A couple of days ago, I linked Josh addressing the same concern
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/dangerous-ground
 

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