192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
nimh
 
  7  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 08:25 pm
@cicerone imposter,
A different professor weighing in:

Quote:
It doesn’t matter, by the way, whether the Muslims in question are citizens or noncitizens, green card holders, visa holders or refugees. The Equal Protection Clause explicitly prohibits “deny[ing] to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” The Supreme Court made this clear in Plyler v. Doe, when it protected the rights of non-citizen children in Texas, striking down a denial of school funds to the children of undocumented parents. This means that all foreign travelers on U.S. soil—those waiting at U.S. airports, for example—are protected.

More than that, I’d argue that even Muslims not on U.S. soil are protected. Recent case law suggests that no act by a government official—no matter to whom it applies—can be based on disapproval of a race, ethnicity or religion. In other words, when it comes to Equal Protection, it’s the motive of the government and its agents that matters. If a government official seeks to carry out Trump’s order and bar entry into the country, that is a violation of the Constitution and laws of the United States.

There are those who argue that the president’s powers when it comes to immigration are quite broad, and thus a degree of discrimination when it comes to enforcing U.S. borders is legal. In this respect, supporters of Trump’s travel ban have important case law on their side. In Chae Chan Ping vs. The United States, handed down in 1889, the court held that the Chinese Exclusion Act, which prohibited Chinese nationals, including former U.S. residents, from entering the country, did not violate the Constitution because the power of Congress and the president over immigration is plenary or absolute.

But use of the Chae Chan Ping precedent is problematic. For one, it concerned an act of Congress, signed by the president. This entails a higher level of federal power than when the executive acts alone, thus the courts are more likely to defer to it than they are to a single executive action. More importantly, though, the case occurred well before the development of contemporary Equal Protection law.


http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/02/why-trumps-immigration-rules-are-unconstitutional-214722

Now start counting down to Georgeob1 deriding know-it-all elitist professors who make categorical claims, knowing not of which they speak... This shouldn't, however, make us deride George, whose oft-recounted high-brow social get-togethers with esteemed peers and long professional career do not make him part of any elite at all, and whose categorical claims on constitutional matters do not merit mocking the way they do when expressed by constitutional scholars. For if we would deride his, the way he derides theirs, we would obviously just be demonstrating our totalitarian desire to control the conversation.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 08:30 pm
@nimh,
It's called free expression of views. I'd put my dime on a Constitutional lawyer 24/7.
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  3  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 08:37 pm
Lawmakers Reject Trump's Comparison of Russia and U.S.

Quote:
"There are a lot of killers. We got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country's so innocent?" the president responded.

Trump's unexplained defense of Russia, which has he sustained since the campaign, continued to stump some lawmakers who appeared on network news shows Sunday.

"I'll be honest, I don't know what the president is trying to do with statements like these," Sen. Ben Sasse (R-NY) said on ABC's "This Week."

The Nebraska senator then described the rights provided by the First Amendment, making it clear that Putin and Russia's government do not provide those freedoms to its citizens.

"There is no moral equivalency between the United States of America — the greatest freedom loving nation in the history of the world — and the murderous thugs that are in Putin's defense of his cronyism," Sasse added.

On CNN's "State of the Union," Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) shared Sasse's view of Russia, though he refused to criticize the president for his conflation of the United States and an authoritarian regime.

"Well, Putin is a former KGB," McConnell said. "He's an agent. He's a thug. He was not elected in a way that most people would consider a credible election. The Russians annexed Crimea, invaded Ukraine, and messed around in our elections. No, I don't think there is any equivalency between the way the Russians conduct themselves and the way the United States does."

The dismissal of a moral equivalency went beyond television appearances, as a number of noteworthy Republicans sounded off on Twitter.

America has been a beacon of light and freedom. There is no equivalence with the brutal regime of Vladimir Putin.
— John Kasich (@JohnKasich) February 5, 2017

.@POTUS statement suggesting moral equivalence between Putin's Russia and the United States of America is deeply troubling and wrong.
— Liz Cheney (@Liz_Cheney) February 5, 2017

When has a Democratic political activists been poisoned by the GOP, or vice versa? We are not the same as #Putin. MR
— Marco Rubio (@marcorubio) February 5, 2017



More at the source along the same lines.
blatham
 
  4  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 08:39 pm
@nimh,
Quote:
we would obviously just be demonstrating our totalitarian desire to control the conversation.

To make one thing perfectly clear - on this discussion thread which I originated, any and all totalitarian-style attempts to control the conversation must be approved by me prior to implementation.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 09:21 pm
Don't you kids know there is chili to eat and a history making superbowl game to watch?
roger
 
  3  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 10:04 pm
@revelette1,
Good find.
blatham
 
  3  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 10:07 pm
@ehBeth,
I done did watched it. As a pretending American, I felt a sense of obligation. And the lady of the house, properly appreciating her responsibilities, produced lovely snacks. Pretty dramatic game even if the bad guys ended up winning.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  6  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 10:11 pm
@roger,
Rev's piece was a good gathering up of critical commentary from Republican politicos. But the thing I'm seeing is their frequent attempts to carve out a shallow rhetorical distance between themselves and the lunatic but doing nothing to stop or constrain him.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 10:15 pm
@blatham,
I've noticed that too! Why don't they speak out about Trump's bigotry and ban?
We already know about Mike Pence whose admission as a "good" Christian now now looks like a hypocrite.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 10:16 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
Don't you kids know there is chili to eat and a history making superbowl game to watch?

I'm not much for team sports. The Olympics are more my thing as far as "big sports events" go.

Plus the Patriots cheat, so that takes the fun out of everything.

The chili sounds nice though, especially if very hot (in a habanero sense).
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  5  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 10:25 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Two main reasons, ci. First, they are concerned with their electoral futures if they stand solidly against Trump, knowing much of the base is still behind him so they voice a position palatable to sane persons and not too anti-Trump to hurt them. Second, many of them (like Ryan) are presently getting pretty much everything they want in terms of policy because Trump doesn't give a crap about that in most cases and knows nuttin about the stuff.
RABEL222
 
  3  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 11:04 pm
@blatham,
Quote:
in most cases and knows nuttin about the stuff.


But his Cheney Pence is instructing him.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -1  
Sun 5 Feb, 2017 11:12 pm
@nimh,
Where in Trump's EO does it say that non-Muslims from those countries can freely come and go?

It does not ban Muslims, it bans all people from 7 countries. Granted, these are Muslim dominated countries, but so is Indonesia. Why weren't ALL Muslim nations on the banned list? I mean if Trump is afraid of Muslims, why not ban them all?

This is all based around the further anger at Hillary losing. Trump was very clear in his campaign that he would be doing something similar to this.

Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Mon 6 Feb, 2017 12:09 am
@McGentrix,
The EO went beyond those seven countries
Quote:
The Secretary of State shall suspend the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program (USRAP) for 120 days.

The order prioritizes Christian refugees
Quote:
Upon the resumption of USRAP admissions, the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, is further directed to make changes, to the extent permitted by law, to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual’s country of nationality.


I'm really not an expert in US (constitutional) law.
But personally, I don't have a lot of respect for those - in any country! - who are which each action testing the constitution, and, when failing, make personal attacks on a judge, on judges, or the court system at all. Such seems to indicate that these persons want to act against the respective constitution.
layman
 
  -2  
Mon 6 Feb, 2017 02:08 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

The order prioritizes Christian refugees
Quote:
Upon the resumption of USRAP admissions, the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, is further directed to make changes, to the extent permitted by law, to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual’s country of nationality.



That does NOT prioritize "christian" refugees. That applies to ALL refugees, including ones from countries where muslims are a minority. And ISIS is not chopping heads off of christians only. They kill other religious minorities in the region too.

And there's nothing per se wrong with prioritizing those suffering from "religious" persecution. German jews in 1938, for example.
Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Mon 6 Feb, 2017 02:34 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
And there's nothing per se wrong with prioritizing those suffering from "religious" persecution. German jews in 1938, for example.
Oh, you are referring to the MS St. Louis:
its captain, Gustav Schröder, tried to find homes for over 900 Jewish refugees from Germany. They were denied entry to the United States, about a quarter of them died as the result of this in death camps during World War II.
layman
 
  -2  
Mon 6 Feb, 2017 02:36 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
I'm really not an expert in US (constitutional) law.
But personally, I don't have a lot of respect for those - in any country! - who are which each action testing the constitution, and, when failing, make personal attacks on a judge, on judges, or the court system at all. Such seems to indicate that these persons want to act against the respective constitution.


It would never even begin to occur to you, Walt, that you are describing the left-wingers who are seeking to obstruct this order, all while slandering Trump bigtime. They are the ones who are straining to "test the constitution."

The vast majority of legal scholars recognize that immigration matters are left to congress and/or the president IN THE CONSTITUTION. Traditionally, courts have refused to rule on such issues since they were outside the jurisdiction of the judicial branch. I'll get you a citation from another thread after I post this.
layman
 
  -2  
Mon 6 Feb, 2017 02:38 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

layman wrote:
And there's nothing per se wrong with prioritizing those suffering from "religious" persecution. German jews in 1938, for example.
Oh, you are referring to the MS St. Louis:
its captain, Gustav Schröder, tried to find homes for over 900 Jewish refugees from Germany. They were denied entry to the United States, about a quarter of them died as the result of this in death camps during World War II.


Thanks for making my point. The U.S. SHOULD have prioritized accepting them as refugees, even if some anti-semitic groups in the U.S. wanted to file a lawsuit saying it would be improper.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Mon 6 Feb, 2017 02:42 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
Traditionally, courts have refused to rule on such issues since they were outside the jurisdiction of the judicial branch. I'll get you a citation from another thread after I post this.
That means, immigration is not a constitutional affair nor are the laws related to it?
layman
 
  -1  
Mon 6 Feb, 2017 02:47 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Congress has nearly full authority to regulate immigration without interference from the courts. Because immigration is considered a matter of national security and foreign policy, the Supreme Court has long held that immigration law is largely immune from judicial review. Congress can make rules for immigrants that would be unacceptable if applied to citizens.

In 1952's Harisiades v. Shaughnessy, the Supreme Court upheld the right of Congress to expel noncitizens who were former Communists. It held that "...the place to resist unwise or cruel legislation touching aliens is the Congress, not this Court."


As noted, in this case immigrants on U.S. soil were evicted on the basis of their political beliefs. Such an action would have been absolutely prohibited by virtue of the First Amendment (freedom of speech) had they been citizens. They weren't, so the Supreme Court refused to intervene and overrule the executive branch.

It is the Constitution itself which prescribes the authority of the respective branches of government.
 

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