192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
blatham
 
  2  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 06:26 am
@wmwcjr,
Nice to see you.
blatham
 
  5  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 06:34 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
‘No Vacancies’ for Blacks: How Donald Trump Got His Start, and Was First Accused of Bias
NYT
blatham
 
  2  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 06:38 am
Gail Collins is thinking what I've been arguing for a while
Quote:
Do you think Donald Trump is just Mike Pence’s puppet?

Interesting idea, right? Particularly since the very idea would make our new president totally nuts. Hehehehe.

And it’s possible. Trump is not a man who concentrates on policy issues. So far, the parts of the job that have obsessed him most are crowd size and vote size. And yeah, the wall. But there has to be somebody behind the scenes deciding the non-ego questions. Pass the word that it’s Pence.
NYT
Pence is both a movement conservatism favorite (and member) and he's well connected within the Koch network.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 06:53 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn,
I'm travelling and keeping up only infrequently with these threads,
In regard to your long post from yesterday re Trump, his observable impulsive reactions and the malevolant overreactions of an inherently hostile liberal establishment - Thank you. Very thoughtful and incisive.

What I find odd is that the very prolific Trump haters here apparently don't recognize that, in their own exaggerated responses to to Trump's actions, and their wildly unfounded insights" ( his supposed "abnormality" - blatham , and tyrannical, neo Nazi proclivities -- several others), they are projecting the same excesses of which they accuse him.

Every flaw or peculiarity of any leader or person in the spotlight is vividly apparent to those watching. That's a fate that every leader of any organization must deal with. In the matter of political leadership this phemomenon is exaggerated by the competing partisan preconceptions, viwepoints and habitual interpretations of the divided populace doing the observing. Indeed the expressed observations are often as reflective of the preconceptions of the observers as the qualities or behavior of the leader.

It goes without saying that political supporters of a political leader tend to find positive interpretations of his/her actions and behavior, while opponents tend to be critical. I am bemused, however by the observable tendency of the left or progressives to find flaws in the makeup or characters of their political foes , while conservatives tend to focus more on their perceived beliefs and values. Thus G.W. Bush was stupid and Reagan (in his day) was also a stupid hick, and both lacking in reflective intelligence; while Obama was seen as simply having different values and motives from our own , by their respectrive partisan critics,

Looking back at Obama's Presidency, he was oddly cold and remote in his personal relations with the very politicians he needed to influence to succeed in a democratic government. I suppose one could generate some two-bit psychology out of this, but I never saw much of it. The contrast with reactions to Trump is rather extreme.

Beyond observing an odd and self-serving inclination towards solipsism among liberals who appear to believe they (alone) know all there is to know, I don't have any theory or explanation for this.

The world is a very complex, ever changing place, and our forecasts of it (even those of our prominent, self appointed savants) are routinely confounded by unfolding events. Examples abound from Krugman's recent economic forecasts to the ponderous pronouncements of prominent historians (i.e. Fukuyama's "End of History") - both now laughably wrong.

So far the concrete actions that Trump is taking, both in the selection of his advisors and managers and in his specific governmental actions, appear to me to be very encouraging. (However I am worried about the mental stability of some of his critics.)
Frugal1
 
  -2  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 06:59 am
The one thing all of these Trump haters have in common.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C24CQEdWgAAItGH.jpg
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 07:07 am
As a follow-up on that last post, it's vitally important to recognize that quite aside from Trump (or any other figurehead as GOP president), the machinery - personnel, organizational systems, lobbying bodies and pre-written legislation has been in place for a while waiting for the opportunity presented by Trump and control of both houses. Grover Norquist spoke to this 5 years ago. This piece by David Frum who, as an insider, knows what he's talking about giving an account of Norquist's CPAC speech:
Quote:
All we have to do is replace Obama. ... We are not auditioning for fearless leader. We don't need a president to tell us in what direction to go. We know what direction to go. We want the Ryan budget. ... We just need a president to sign this stuff. We don't need someone to think it up or design it. The leadership now for the modern conservative movement for the next 20 years will be coming out of the House and the Senate.
The requirement for president?
Pick a Republican with enough working digits to handle a pen to become president of the United States.
DailyBeast

If Trump holds the focus of attention, we can miss the extremism of coming policy initiatives which aren't "Trumpian" at all - they are policies long sought by the radical right. And the vast majority of consequential policies we can expect will be of this sort.

If we think about things this way, we can see that in an important way Trump is actually something of an ideal figurehead to the radical right because 1) he holds the press' attention so well and 2) because he's not interested in policy, just in being a figurehead.
Frugal1
 
  -3  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 07:13 am
Trump will not resort to failure as his predecessor constantly did.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3ELo5rUoAAJXIh.jpg:large
blatham
 
  3  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 07:14 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
his supposed "abnormality" - blatham

If you were intellectually honest here, george, you would try to make some rational accounting of the number of Republicans and conservatives and US historians who make precisely the same claim (not to mention how common this criticism is throughout mainstream media who publish for a national audience and those publishing with more local audiences). There's no precedent for this.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 07:23 am
@blatham,
"Radical Right" vs "Radical left" !!! There are other more dispassionate and less subjective ways to express the (so far permanent) divide in the history of human political affairs. I expect that Blatham really means "Radical Right vs. moderate, eminently wise and rational left" but that is merely a reflection of his limited understanding of human affairs ( perhaps I should say limited willingness to understand human affairs).
blatham
 
  4  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 07:34 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I expect that Blatham really means "Radical Right vs. moderate, eminently wise and rational left"

That formulation is just convenient for you intellectually, george.

I'm making a comparison between modern conservatism (and GOP) and the party and ideology that was in place three to four decades ago. The party has moved much further to the right (there's lots of good research and metrics on this which you'll never read). The ideology presently reigning is far closer to Bircherism and to the theocratic aspect of the religious right than it was during Nixon's time.

ps... how's the book shopping coming?
hightor
 
  2  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 07:37 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
What I find odd is that the very prolific Trump haters here apparently don't recognize that, in their own exaggerated responses to to Trump's actions, and their wildly unfounded insights" ( his supposed "abnormality" - blatham , and tyrannical, neo Nazi proclivities -- several others), they are projecting the same excesses of which they accuse him.

No, they're not. They're simply people expressing opinions on a message board, for christ's sake. They're not claiming to be the USA's savior, they're not making repeated claims which are demonstrably false, nor do you see them whining about the number of "thumbs down" attached to their responses here.
Quote:
Looking back at Obama's Presidency, he was oddly cold and remote in his personal relations with the very politicians he needed to influence to succeed in a democratic government.I suppose one could generate some two-bit psychology out of this, but I never saw much of it. The contrast with reactions to Trump is rather extreme.

There was plenty of it. Our own Finn dAbuzz makes a stab on page 305 of this thread. No, Obama was no wheelin' dealin' LBJ, no back-slappin' Bill Clinton — that's one of the reasons people voted for him. Hey, it's not Obama's fault — or Donald's — that presidential elections have morphed into something resembling the Academy Awards. We're electing people based on star power, not their proven ability to work with the machinery of power.

As far as the "malevolant overreactions of an inherently hostile liberal establishment", suck it up guys. This is the political system we've clamored for since the birth of our nation despite the warnings:
Quote:
....Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally.

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.



0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 07:37 am
@blatham,
And what you don't acknowledge is that the political left has moved much farther from its positions in that era than has the right. You appear to see only the distance from YOUR political positions and not the histoirical values of our country.
blatham
 
  3  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 07:45 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
And what you don't acknowledge is that the political left has moved much farther from its positions in that era than has the right.

But that is not so. The opposite is so. One compelling piece of evidence for this is that the room that Trump found for his appeals to the middle class (and lower) was opened up by the Dem's failure to attend to this constituency in rhetoric and, more importantly, in policy. Whatever the political merits of Bill Clinton's strategies, one consequence has been a drift towards policies agreeable to corporate and the very wealthy and less agreeable to those below.

But I'll be quite willing to revisit this notion if you can point me to anything written (that is not merely a screed) or to any research which supports your claim.

(ps I gather you're not really going to purchase and read Mayer's book. I'll stop asking.)
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 07:46 am
@Frugal1,
Quote:
Trump will not resort to failure as his predecessor constantly did.

The poster with Marx's picture is sort of stupid. I don't recall Obama ever suggesting that the working class should own the means of production. I never heard him refer to the "bourgeoisie". And the famous phrase, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" was never carried through — only the second part, which the rightwingers have been complaining about ever since the New Deal.
blatham
 
  2  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 07:59 am
@hightor,
Quote:
I don't recall Obama ever suggesting that the working class should own the means of production.

This is a strangely commonplace charge from the less educated folks on the right. I've never read Marx (though I think that an omission in my knowledge). I was never assigned Marx in my political science courses. I'm not sure I even know anyone who's studied Marx and I don't recall even bumping into anyone online or elsewhere who has forwarded Marxist doctrine in 25 or 30 years.

Now if one of these dudes said, "Hey, I know your type. You think Rawls is cool. And JS Mill. And Durkheim too probably", I'd have to say, "I admit it". But the chances these guys have any familiarity with such work is pretty small.
0 Replies
 
Frugal1
 
  -2  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 08:01 am
@hightor,
Trump's predecessor is sort of stupid. O promoted ‘We All Belong to the Government' , and he constantly suppressed rugged individualism.
hightor
 
  2  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 08:14 am
@Frugal1,
‘We All Belong to the Government' — what are you talking about? That would be a ridiculous statement for any politician to make. Signing up for the ACA because of a government mandate doesn't mean you "belong" to the government.

And I reject your second contention as well. I sincerely doubt that anyone who felt "suppressed" was that rugged of an individual to begin with. You guys are so tender!
blatham
 
  3  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 08:15 am
Here's the sort of matter where Trump really is an ignorant dipshit and dangerous. Apparently, he's now back to saying that torture works and we ought to be doing a lot more of it. Because... "fighting fire with fire" - a rationale which isn't even coherent given that he hasn't (yet) said we ought to behead someone when ISIS does so.
Quote:
“When Isis is doing things that nobody has ever heard of since medieval times. Would I feel strongly about waterboarding. As far as I’m concerned we have to fight fire with fire.”

Trump said he asked intelligence chiefs earlier this week whether torture works. “The answer was yes, absolutely,” he said.


Quote:
Trump said he asked intelligence chiefs earlier this week whether torture works. “The answer was yes, absolutely,” he said.
Does anyone believe this actually happened?

Quote:
On Wednesday, Steve Kleinman, a retired air force colonel and senior adviser to the FBI-led team that interrogates terrorist suspects warned that weakening US prohibitions against torture was dangerous and ignorant.

“A lot of these people who weigh in heavily on interrogation have no idea how little they know, [and do so] because of what they see on television,” said Kleinman, chairman of the research advisory committee to the High Value Detainee Interrogation Group (HIG).

“There is, at best, anecdotal evidence to support torture,” said Kleinman, who emphasized that he was not speaking for the HIG.

“There is, on the other hand, a robust body of scientific literature and field testing that demonstrates the efficacy of a relationship-based, rapport-based, cognitive-based approach to interrogation, as well as a robust literature that would suggest torture immediately undermines a source’s ability to be a reliable reporter of information: memory is undermined, judgment is undermined, decision-making is undermined, time-references are undermined. And this is only from a purely operational perspective; we can’t take the morality out of strategy.”
the Guardian
ps... Lynn Cheney has come out in favor of Yeah, more torture, you betcha. Big surprise that.
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  5  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 08:18 am
I have to say, and it is reluctantly I say this, I find myself getting more angry with those who took the high road (so called) by not wanting to "choose the lesser of two evils." IMHO they are at least in part responsible for Trump being elected regardless of whether they think WikiLeaks leaks was legitimate or not, at the end of the day they had the choice of Trump or Clinton and I don't care what anyone else says, Clinton was ten times better than any Trump. I know she would not have contemplated rolling back Obama's executive order on "enhanced torture" the way Trump is going to try to do. I hope he fails, but the way things have been going, I don't have much hope.

Trump signals changes to US interrogation, detention policy

It is not as though we weren't warned, he is doing everything he said was going to do in his campaign.
Builder
 
  0  
Thu 26 Jan, 2017 08:22 am
@revelette1,
Thanks for the chuckles, kiddo.

From the political standpoint, you appear to be a regular contributor, meaning we take your opinion on as we see fit.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.54 seconds on 07/01/2024 at 03:11:01