monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

@hightor,

Agreed.

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@hightor,

Quote:

I'd suggest that you could read and listen to Chomsky.

Revisionist history has made him a multi-millionaire. And he hates capitalism all the way to the bank.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

You should. Chomsky says stay though nothing good will come of it.

"Nothing good" other than deterring a "murderous and destructive .. Turkish assault" that leaving now is likely to unleash.

He acknowledges that any final outcome will be some form of ugly. But he also acknowledges that staying would at least keep us from "seeing Kurds massacred once again" right now (and hopefully keep the door open to a "least worst outcome" later on).

Eh, not worth it, you say. If the end result will be nothing good anyway, might as well leave now.

That's.. not a difference? It looks like a difference we're liable to end up counting in five or six-digit numbers of additional deaths to me.

Lash wrote:

Our opinions are almost exactly the same.

Chomsky says there's no "ideal endgame" whichever way, but argues we can at least still prevent a whole new wave of massacres that will likely be unleashed if we leave.

You're apparently arguing that we should leave now already regardless of what imminent new massacre it will likely unleash because if "nothing good will come of it" in the end anyway, there's no point.

I don't know what mindset leads one to conclude that this is "almost exactly the same" opinion.

One where you can shrug off any messy greys and "least worst" options that involve seeing ten or hundred thousand deaths more or fewer here or there, I gather. Where you can dismiss even Chomsky's warnings that leaving will trigger new genocidal massacres... in the name of opposing genocidal war.

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@coldjoint,

coldjoint wrote:

If you hate America you will love it.

I've found Chomsky's depiction of the bombing of Japan at the end of WWII to be deceptive and dishonorable.

Either that or he is highly ignorant and doesn't know to keep quiet about topics that he doesn't understand.

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@nimh,

Quote:

Chomsky says there's no "ideal endgame"

Does he acknowledge Islam's part in that?

Quote:

but argues we can at least still prevent a whole new wave of massacres that will likely be unleashed if we leave.

Islam is causing those deaths. How can we prevent Islam or what it says and does? Chomsky is intellectually dishonest and rich from lies that avoid the core issues.

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@nimh,

I’d love to find a solution for the Kurds, the Palestinians, the Yemeni, Iraqis, Central Americans, the Rohingya, Mexicans: everyone who is displaced, threatened, or hungry.

As Chomsky says — and we all know—we can’t fix the problems; historically, we just make problems worse.

You know this is true.

If there is a solution we can help with before we leave and forever change our constant war footing, I hope we’d try it. Not dig in.

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@hightor,

hightor wrote:

We will always suffer unintended and unforeseen consequences from military interventions, no matter how fair and just we believe our motivation to be.

That's a question rather than an answer, though.

Even intervening in World War II had "unintended and unforeseen consequences". In that case, however, I guess we all agree that those were outweighed by what the consequences of not intervening would have been.

In the case of the Iraq war, where many of us had warned just how many chain reactions of unforeseeable, potentially disastrous consequences might follow, I guess most of us agree that they were not.

The current state of Bosnia and Kosovo illustrates that the interventions there, too, had unintended, damaging consequences. I feel strongly, however, that the consequences of non-intervention would have been more damaging still (and that the state of Bosnia is as much the reflection of the consequences of three years of inaction).

So the observation that any military intervention, whether well- or ill-intentioned, will inherently spawn some cascade of unforeseeable deleterious consequences is an acutely important caution... but doesn't in itself answer the question of what the right course of action is.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

As Chomsky says — and we all know—we can’t fix the problems; historically, we just make problems worse.

You know this is true.

Most of the time, yes. Your country's track record is predominantly awful.

And then, on rare occasions, you actually helped.

Can't speak for anyone else, but that's how I've developed a default suspicion of the US, its intentions and its impact ... without precluding that in some cases, we should listen to local voices telling us that the US is actually the lesser evil for them, and many lives hang in the balance one way or another.

In simplistic terms, I see the US by default as a "bad guy"... but not necessarily always as the worst guy. And sometimes that matters.

For example, I have few illusions about NATO's purposes. But when the choice for, say, Estonians is between the NATO umbrella and increased vulnerability to the hyper-nationalist, irredentist dictatorship on its border that's already invaded Ukraine, I'll listen to them and accept that NATO can be an objective virtue in relative terms. When the alternatives looming over Rojava are Assad's genocidal regime and a Turkish dictatorship vowing to bury Kurds in their ditches, I'm OK with "Yankee imperialists" securing the balance. But considering the endless US track record of propping up dictatorships and worse, I also know those are going to remain exceptions to the rule (not least under Trump).

Lash wrote:

If there is a solution we can help with before we leave and forever change our constant war footing, I hope we’d try it. Not dig in.

Fair.

The issue here is that a difference of opinion about how long "before we leave" can last could easily have consequences that run into tens of thousands of lives.

But in principle I agree. And it's as close as we'll get on this I'm sure..

1 Reply

Just noticed the differences in languages again:

Quote:

The possessive form of an English noun is used in BE differently and in BE it would be "Seasonal Greetings" or "Merry Christmas" for those with a more traditional, Christian culture background.

But perhaps this is an effort to erase Christianity from the US?

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@nimh,

nimh wrote:

Your country's track record is predominantly awful.

We do the best that anyone can expect given the world that we live in.

We've kept the world secure for freedom and democracy.

nimh wrote:

For example, I have few illusions about NATO's purposes.

To prevent the Soviets (and now Russia) from conquering Europe?

nimh wrote:

But when the choice for, say, Estonians is between the NATO umbrella and increased vulnerability to the hyper-nationalist, irredentist dictatorship on its border that's already invaded Ukraine, I'll listen to them and accept that NATO can be an objective virtue in relative terms. When the alternatives looming over Rojava are Assad's genocidal regime and a Turkish dictatorship vowing to bury Kurds in their ditches, I'm OK with "Yankee imperialists" securing the balance. But considering the endless US track record of propping up dictatorships and worse, I also know those are going to remain exceptions to the rule (not least under Trump).

We propped up dictatorships during the Cold War only because allowing the Soviets to conquer the world was a far worse option.

And even then we pushed those dictatorships towards freedom and democracy.

We stopped propping up those dictatorships as soon as the Cold War ended.

Would it have been better to let the Soviets conquer the world unopposed?

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@coluber2001,

Thanks for posting that.

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Mueller's plot thickens.

Mystery Filing Appears to Ask High Court to Act in Mueller Probe

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@Lash,

It didn't make Kosovo or Sierra Leone any worse.

The problem in the ME is that interests trump values. America's support of Israel and Saudi Arabia means any attempt to actually make things better is just tinkering.

The Israelis will keep persecuting the Palestinians and stealing their land and the Saudis will continue proxy wars in Yemen and financing groups like Al Qaida and IS.

When democracy does happen like in Egypt America support a return to coups and fascism because they didn't like the person people voted for.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

The Israelis will keep persecuting the Palestinians and stealing their land

Self defense isn't persecution.

Israel could hardly steal their own land.

Israel has even offered to give land to the Palestinians in exchange for peace. The Palestinians just don't want peace.

izzythepush wrote:

and the Saudis will continue proxy wars in Yemen

Hardly a proxy war. The Saudis are defending themselves from aggression.

izzythepush wrote:

and financing groups like Al Qaida and IS.

True. That's one thing we could all do without.

izzythepush wrote:

When democracy does happen like in Egypt America support a return to coups and fascism because they didn't like the person people voted for.

Nonsense. America supported Egypt's democracy and opposed the coup against it.

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@izzythepush,

It’s time for us to stop all military intervention in that region and strengthen diplomatic and economic cooperation among NATO and US member states.

Is Turkey in NATO?? And they’re promising to eradicate Kurds? Surely something smarter can be done to stop the constant war.

I mean, of course, I expect Saudi Arabia to yank the petrodollar, Russia and Saudi to take over with the petroruble or some horror, and my country to be cast into an economic dystopia. The center cannot hold. Might as well try to do the right thing now.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

Is Turkey in NATO?? And they’re promising to eradicate Kurds?

Turkey is a NATO-member since 1952.

The present armed Kurdish–Turkish conflict started 1978.

1 Reply

@nimh,

Quote:

So the observation that any military intervention, whether well- or ill-intentioned, will inherently spawn some cascade of unforeseeable deleterious consequences is an acutely important caution... but doesn't in itself answer the question of what the right course of action is.

That might be because sometimes (usually?) there is no "right course of action". Or put another way, it may have been "right" to do at the time but this certificate of righteousness doesn't automatically extend into the future.

The U.N. troops who inadvertently brought cholera to Haiti — a bad outcome, indirect as it might be, of a humanitarian intervention. Other examples abound and a depressing number have to do with, guess what, sexual exploitation of women. And just changing regional power balances often results in future conflicts. The creation of the state of Israel, for instance — seemed like a great idea at the time but we obviously weren't clever or far-sighted enough to do it without creating a huge uprooted population of resentful Palestinians and sowing the seeds for a perpetual harvest of ethnic hatred and civil strife.

I'm not saying that humanitarian interventions and military incursions should never be done. As you point out, the bad consequences of intervention are often themselves the bad consequences of previous inaction. But they should, ideally, be multi-national forces with a clearly-defined mission and a commitment to leave as soon as possible. But be ready to watch it all turn into a shameful **** show. Again and again.

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@Walter Hinteler,

I think this NATO membership should be pressed.

1 Reply

@Lash,

Lash wrote:

It’s time for us to stop all military intervention in that region and strengthen diplomatic and economic cooperation among NATO and US member states.

Is Turkey in NATO?? And they’re promising to eradicate Kurds? Surely something smarter can be done to stop the constant war.

I mean, of course, I expect Saudi Arabia to yank the petrodollar, Russia and Saudi to take over with the petroruble or some horror, and my country to be cast into an economic dystopia. The center cannot hold. Might as well try to do the right thing now.

Apologies. US in the first sentence was an unintended self-correction from UN.

0 Replies

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