monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

@Debra Law,

It's so obvious how the GOP continues to dismantle social benefit protections for the masses such as social security and Medicare.
Most republicans must be masochists.
Advanced cultures and economies provide protections for their citizens in the form of universal health care and social security. Why do they (the GOP) work so hard to harm their own citizens?

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@Debra Law,

Georgeob1, It takes the individuals to become the statistics.

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@TomTomBinks,

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Baldy, I'm glad you can read a definition on Wiki. I can read too. The difference is I can comprehend the meaning of what I read.

You could have fooled me that you understand what you read.

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I wouldn't call the USA a socialist country, but there are elements of socialism here. There have to be or we would fall apart.

I disagree, we only picked up major forms of socialism during the WWII era, that was when such things as SS came about. Until that point, our country seemed to be doing just fine. In fact until we had police and fire depts and roads and schools prior to even having an income tax requirement which was started prior to the 1920's.

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Let's use the fire service as an example:
The product is extinguishing fires
It is a service provided by the fire department
The fire department was established by the city legislature. It has a mandate to put out fires, in other words it has an order from the state(the people).
The equipment and the pay for the firemen comes from public money (from taxes)
The service of putting fires out is for everybody in the jurisdiction, no membership fees required, no one can be denied this service

Your whole arguement falls apart because there is no product, it is a service. You can look up the definition of the word product:

Quote:

prod·uct
ˈprädəkt/Submit
noun
1.
an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale.

What is manufactured or refined with a fire or police service? Nothing is made or created. They are a service offered by the govt via money collected in taxes. We don't pay a fee in our taxes for fire or police service, they just receive a budget from the city or country. So nothing is really given or paid for even in the service they provide. It is assumed that the city collects the taxes and ONE of the things they pay for with our taxes is the police/fire dept.

Some cities offer trash services, is that socialism?

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How is this NOT an example of socialism?

For the very reasons I listed above. You want socialism so bad, you will see it in everything that is done by the govt.

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Can you imagine what it would be like if they privatized the fire department? You have to pay membership fees and if you weren't current they would just let your house burn down. Sounds like a wonderful plan. Now picture the same scenario with police protection and the other examples I gave.
Why is your head in the sand about something that's blatantly obvious?
What are you afraid of? If you admit we have socialist elements in our country will you suddenly become a Marxist?

Not everything done by the govt is socialism. If that were the case we would either have socialism or anarchy.

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Your social security is another example (this one you agree is socialism) Would you rather it didn't exist? Who would benefit from us not having this system in place. It didn't always exist, you know. There was a time that old folks who didn't have savings or family to take care of them just became beggars and died on the streets. But taxes were lower so I guess that's OK, huh?

So I guess your point about "If you admit we have socialist elements in our country will you suddenly become a Marxist?" I have admitted to have socialist elements in our nation, what I suggest is that we do not need anymore. Hence the UHC being shot down in CO by 79% if the voters. More is unwanted.

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Nobody is preventing you from saving for your own retirement. Start an IRA or sign up for the 401k plan at work. Or just open an account with E-Trade and buy some stock.

No one is preventing me? You are right about that, no one is preventing me but the govt makes it harder to save. Taxes and fee's from state, county, city and the feds all take out of my income. I don't mind paying taxes, as some many say, it is the price we pay for civilization. What I mind is how much and from the many sources they collect their money. Thanks to govt laws, I have to pay my ex-wife $1,300 a month, that's almost 16k a year. So no, while the govt isn't preventing me from doing so, they don't make it easy. I would rather a portion of my SS fee's go into a private system, let me decide what is best for my retirement plans, no some politician in DC.

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@Debra Law,

It appears you miss the essential point here. Potential oppressors exist across the political spectrum, and the history of the 20th century provided ample evidences of this proposition. Orwell was writing about oppressors of both left and right - a point which you appear to have forgotten. Lenin, Stalin and Mao were likely sure they were wiping out oppressors of "the people" as the exiled, imprisioned and massacred landowners, the bourgeois, and peasant farmers.

Government tyrannies of both the right and the left have all proclaimed that they were using their government power to rescue the victims of oppression. Such self descriptions were of course lies. I believe it is the real actions and methods of governments in making and carrying out policy, not their self-proclaimed intentions, that distinguish oppressors from others.

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@Walter Hinteler,

The Right, of course, doesn't equal Nazi, but you've tipped your hand in regards to your personal left-wing thought.

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@georgeob1,

I somewhat disagree with that conclusion. It's because of the experiments done at Stanford and Yale on how normal people can be put into leadership position, and how they can exact pain on other students.

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@Debra Law,

Spoken like a true-blue member of the Trial Bar.

There's not a smidgen of abuse in our civil justice system!

Plaintiff attorneys are heroes.

That Philadelphia psychic who found a bottom-feeder to file suit for loss of her powers as a result of an accident deserved her day in court!

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@Debra Law,

Debra Law wrote:

blatham wrote:
Re "powerful interests", I'm referring to the imbalance of power and influence between, say, the citizens of a town near a polluting source where the corporate interests of that polluter commonly have far greater means to set or influence policy than do the citizens themselves. They have the money, the lobbyists, the marketing people, the capacity to fund campaigns to a level that citizens cannot compete with, etc.

Lobbyists, as an example, were very successful in their "tort reform" efforts throughout the country. Thus, the powerful interests were able to limit or eliminate the ability of their victims to seek and obtain redress.

No argument there from me. I think the real issuee here is just which lobbyists you would put in this group. There are many others advocating directly related issues, ranging from supposed animal rights to womens rights and environmental matters, as well as the extremely well-funded efforts of lobby groups funded by tort lawyers, that I suspect you would exclude from this categtory . Their efforts also touch on property rights, moral issues and the freedoms of others.

The real issue here is whose ox is being gored, and not the vague principles you appear to be citing. Neither of you acknowledge that .

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

I agree. The problem is of course that they believe they are the unique judges of the rest of us who have not yet "atoned" for sins we didn't commit.

The ridiculous thought of "White privilege" comes to mind. Then there is also the "check your privilege" standard applied to all white people.

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@TomTomBinks,

TomTomBinks wrote:

These are services provided by the government, which is funded by taxes. The services are available to everyone in the community. That's socialism. What do YOU think it means?

I am perplexed about the number of Americans, on left and right, who think that any kind of tax-funded, government-provided service = socialism. Eugene Debs would roll over in his grave.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

The Right, of course, doesn't equal Nazi, but you've tipped your hand in regards to your personal left-wing thought.

They started with anti-immigrant actions (leaving aside the what happened in the last decades).
This anti-immigrant rhetoric has won support among many Germans.
And yesterday, one of the leading figures said under the applause of nearly 1,000 followers (plus thousands of likes on youtube): "Germans are the only people in the world who plant a monument of shame in the heart of the capital." [That's the Holocaust memorial in Berlin.] "This laughable policy of coming to terms with the past is crippling us. We need a 180 degree turnaround in our policy of memory."

I know that your use of "left-wing" is different to the one here. (I'm a member of the Social Democratic Party, which is considered to be centre-left.)
But the opposition of the Right includes all democratic parties, fortunately.
The former Central Council of Jews in Germany head Dieter Graumann said that such a language and speech was "outrageous" and it was a scandal for such a poisonous mentality to come from a politician in a party set to win seats in parliament.

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@Baldimo,

Baldimo wrote:

Can you give me a couple of examples of where Michael Moore was correct about anything he has said?

Michael Moore: People will vote for Donald Trump as a giant “F**k you” — and he’ll win

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

I somewhat disagree with that conclusion. It's because of the experiments done at Stanford and Yale on how normal people can be put into leadership position, and how they can exact pain on other students.

I what way does that support disagreement ?? My argument is that oppression is accomplished by actions, and oppressors should be judged by their actions, and not their supposed good intentions, which are the excuse of nearly every oppressor.

The fact that human beings can be induced to do harmful things has nothing to do with the matter, one way or the other.

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@nimh,

Do you really think that all the people who voted for Trump were part of that "**** you" crowd? There is no doubt that some people voted for Trump not because of Trump but because of Hillary. I think those people are a smaller part of the voting block then you think they are.

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@Baldimo,

I agree with you, but I think Nimh did answer the challenge he was given. It's clearly not true in every case but Moores's forecast was accurate.

His punishment is that he will likely be a fat foolish slob for the rest of his life.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

blatham wrote:
Actually, no. I was pointing to that ridiculous claim and cliche by layman that I (or others) bring every question down to race. To which you responded "Exactly" with two exclamation marks, no less.
What was the "riduclous claim and cliche" to which you are referring? Layman asserted that skin color should become irellevant in social interactions. Is that ridiculous?

You seem to be in such a hurry to be indignant that you're not even reading the posts you're responding to anymore.

Blatham already specifically cited the remark Layman made that he considered a "ridiculous claim and cliche". It was Layman referring to him as one of "these race-baiters [who] try to reduce every conversation to racial differences." Hence why he pointed out the volumes of posts he's written about all kinds of other things.

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@TomTomBinks,

TomTomBinks wrote:

Let's use the fire service as an example:
The product is extinguishing fires
It is a service provided by the fire department
The fire department was established by the city legislature. It has a mandate to put out fires, in other words it has an order from the state(the people).
The equipment and the pay for the firemen comes from public money (from taxes)
The service of putting fires out is for everybody in the jurisdiction, no membership fees required, no one can be denied this service

How is this NOT an example of socialism?

Mostly because the concept of communal services well pre-dates the era of socialist ideology and has been championed and implemented by everyone from social-democrats and christian-democrats to conservatives and nationalists. As Walter already alluded, the history of communal health service goes back to at least Bismarck, surely no socialist. By dubbing every single example of a communally funded and implemented service "socialism," people like you, however well-intentioned, are robbing the word of all and any meaning. By this standard, everyone from Adenauer to Winston Churchill would have been a socialist.

TomTomBinks wrote:

Your social security is another example (this one you agree is socialism)

And both of you are wrong. If anything, social security is a model of social-democracy in action (though of course it fits very well in, say, a christian-democratic society too).

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@georgeob1,

Even a broken clock is right twice a day...

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

I agree with you, but I think Nimh did answer the challenge he was given. It's clearly not true in every case but Moores's forecast was accurate.

Thank you.

Baldimo wrote:

Do you really think that all the people who voted for Trump were part of that "**** you" crowd? There is no doubt that some people voted for Trump not because of Trump but because of Hillary. I think those people are a smaller part of the voting block then you think they are.

No, I don't think that all Trump voters were part of the "**** you" crowd. I think Trump's election was the result of a confluence of many different factors, which brought just enough voters with various motivations together to make for a win in the electoral college. I tried to list all the factors I could think of from the top of my head in this post a while ago.

However, at a time when many Democrats and liberals were confident, even cocksure, about Clinton's likeliness to win, and mockingly dismissed any suggestion that even states like Michigan would be at risk, Michael Moore called it. He didn't just predict that Trump would win, but pinpointed the key weakness of the Democrats in this campaign that would swing the election. The "**** you" voter does not represent, here, the median Republican voter, but the voter who ended up pushing Trump into a narrow majority in key states.

1 Reply

@nimh,

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