192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 11:06 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
What you are telling me is that your emotions about guns trump my emotions about the live of human beings.

No. Our right to have guns trumps your desire to violate that right.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 11:12 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Say I want 5 tons of sarin gaz for my own personal protection. Where can I buy them? You aren't going to tell me I don't need them, are you?
I also need an A bomb, just to be on the safe side. Of course that's allowed in America, because Versace dresses and stomach surgery are ok so why not nuclear weapons, right?

First, we aren't serfs over here in America. We don't have to convince our lords that we "need" something before we are allowed to have it.

So let's dispense with all of this "need" nonsense.

Restrictions on Constitutional rights are allowed ONLY if the restrictions can be justified with a good reason.

Prohibitions against nerve gas and nuclear weapons can by justified with a good reason, therefore such prohibitions are allowed.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 11:13 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
And these poor souls think that they reason rationally...

That's quite perceptive of us.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 11:18 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Emotions are just another way to think, a way which is different from logic, with its pros and cons. An important pro is that emotions are less easy to rationalization away, to ignore. A con used to be that emotions are easier to manipulate than reason, but nowadays every cretin can reason that 9/11 was an inside job or that the NASA never went to the moon...

In other words, it has become easier and easier to lie 'rationally' to oneself and others. Like you do constantly: you keep saying the most absurd things under the guise of reason. And then you cast BS onto those of us who aren't trying to become soul-less robots... Amusing.
Olivier5
 
  5  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 11:22 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Prohibitions against nerve gas and nuclear weapons can by justified with a good reason, therefore such prohibitions are allowed.

You just want to trample on my civil right to own 5 tons of sarin... Tsk tsk tsk.
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maporsche
 
  5  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 11:28 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Of course not having the right gun laws is the Florida governments and national governments fault.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  5  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 11:30 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
That’s quite a leap from what I said.

I made my comments on this well before Trump. I was just surprised to hear Trump agree with me.

Also, it never hurts to point out cases where the Republican president disagrees with republicans.
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  6  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 11:45 am
@Glennn,
I don't know too much about guns in spite of my husband owning several. So perhaps you could answer a question. Do either a semiautomatic handgun or sawed off shotgun do as much damage in the same amount of time as a AR-15 or another similar assault (whatever) gun? Is it just a matter of a cosmetic (right word?) feature which turns one of those into a deadly weapon such a mass shooter's weapons of choice which has been an AR-15? If so to the last, then while we are banning assault weapons, ban those too.
revelette1
 
  5  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 12:04 pm
Quote:
The NRA said "the AR-15 has soared in popularity" because it's "customizable, adaptable, reliable and accurate." It is also versatile and can be used for "sport shooting, hunting and self-defense situations," the NRA said, adding the ability to "personalize" so many of the rifle's components "is one of the things that makes it so unique."

On top of that, the weapon is accurate, relatively lightweight and has low recoil.

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence also cited the rifle’s versatility in evaluating its popularity.

“They’re accurate and they can basically shoot as quickly as you can pull the trigger,” according to a campaign statement.

"Along those lines, they’re very customizable — most average people can figure out how to install accessories like forward trigger grips that let you hold the gun at waist height and spray bullets while stabilizing the gun, laser sights, and you can add high-capacity magazines.”

The ability to add a high-capacity magazine to the rifles is certainly one factor that makes them attractive to people looking to commit mass murder. A 30-round magazine is fairly standard with MSRs (although some states cap the capacity to 10 or 15 rounds), but "drums" holding as many as 100 rounds are also available.

But the AR-15 and its variants aren't the only high-capacity semi-automatic rifles on the market.

Dean Hazen, owner of The Gun Experts in Mahomet, Ill., and a master firearms instructor, said the reason mass shooters are turning to the AR-15 is due to a "copy-cat" mentality more than any feature of the rifle.

"It’s really just a perception thing," Hazen said. "There are rifles that are more powerful and more dangerous than that, but they're not being used."

Hazen said the AR-15 has "gotten a bad rap." He believes mass shooters generally don't know much about guns and choose the AR-15 because of the reputation it has gotten from being used in other mass shootings.

"Thank God they don't know any better because if they did they would use much more effective weapons," Hazen said.

Here is a list of mass shootings in the U.S. that featured AR-15-style rifles during the last 35 years, courtesy of the Stanford Geospatial Center and Stanford Libraries and USA TODAY research:

Feb. 24, 1984: Tyrone Mitchell, 28, used an AR-15, a Stoeger 12-gauge shotgun and a Winchester 12-gauge shotgun to kill two and wound 12 at 49th Street Elementary School in Los Angeles before killing himself.

Oct. 7, 2007: Tyler Peterson, 20, used an AR-15 to kill six and injure one at an apartment in Crandon, Wis., before killing himself.

June 20, 2012: James Eagan Holmes, 24, used an AR-15-style .223-caliber Smith and Wesson rifle with a 100-round magazine, a 12-gauge Remington shotgun and two .40-caliber Glock semi-automatic pistols to kill 12 and injure 58 at a movie theater in Aurora, Colo.

Dec. 14, 2012: Adam Lanza, 20, used an AR-15-style rifle, a .223-caliber Bushmaster, to kill 27 people — his mother, 20 students and six teachers — in Newtown, Conn., before killing himself.

June 7, 2013: John Zawahri, 23, used an AR-15-style .223-caliber rifle and a .44-caliber Remington revolver to kill five and injure three at a home in Santa Monica, Calif., before he was killed.

March 19, 2015: Justin Fowler, 24, used an AR-15 to kill one and injure two on a street in Little Water, N.M., before he was killed.

May 31, 2015: Jeffrey Scott Pitts, 36, used an AR-15 and .45-caliber handgun to kill two and injure two at a store in Conyers, Ga., before he was killed.

Oct. 31, 2015: Noah Jacob Harpham, 33, used an AR-15, a .357-caliber revolver and a 9mm semi-automatic pistol to kill three on a street in Colorado Springs, Colo., before he was killed.

Dec. 2, 2015: Syed Rizwyan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, 28 and 27, used two AR-15-style, .223-caliber Remington rifles and two 9 mm handguns to kill 14 and injure 21 at his workplace in San Bernardino, Calif., before they were killed.

June 12, 2016: Omar Mateen, 29, used an AR-15 style rifle (a Sig Sauer MCX), and a 9mm Glock semi-automatic pistol to kill 49 people and injure 50 at an Orlando nightclub before he was killed.

Oct. 1, 2017: Stephen Paddock, 64, used a stockpile of guns including an AR-15 to kill 58 people and injure hundreds at a music festival in Las Vegas before he killed himself.

Nov. 5, 2017: Devin Kelley, 26, used an AR-15 style Ruger rifle to kill 26 people at a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, before he was killed.

Feb. 14, 2018: Police say Nikolas Cruz, 19, used an AR-15-style rifle to kill at least 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla.

More: 20 years in, shootings have changed schools in unexpected ways

More: Florida school shooting is the 6th to injure students this year


USA TODAY

So perhaps banning just "assault weapons" is the wrong phrase and singling out the AR=15 as the deadliest weapon is the wrong way to fight these horrific deaths. The phrase we might should use could be just be "high capacity guns." That way gun advocates don't get gun control (life saving) advocates all tangled up in knots thereby losing control of the debate over the names of all the many different types of guns.
hightor
 
  8  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 12:07 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
I want a handgun for home self defense. Are you okay with that?

I'm more concerned about the nature of the threats to your safety. Are you so obnoxious that people want to do you bodily harm? Do people regularly attempt to break into your home? Is yours the only wealthy household in a poor, blighted neighborhood? Do you play the accordion?

I'm reminded of the members here who suddenly began to spout the current NRA dodge, "We need to be nicer to frightened, hateful people so they won't shoot us." Maybe you should try a charm offensive.

If you're so frightened, why is a handgun going make you believe you're more secure than you would be with a good guard dog, stout locks, and a CCTV security system?
maporsche
 
  6  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 12:16 pm
@hightor,
I imagine those who feel the need to have a handgun for home defense are the same type of people who have bunkers in the backyard, bars on their windows, and 5 locks on their steel core doors. You know, safety is paramount.

Then they'll refuse to wear a helmet when they ride their motorcycles or buckle their seat-belt when cruising in their 1969 Camaro. Yow know, because they're not afraid of anything.

Also not worried about a few beers before driving or texting while driving. Because they're not irresponsible, others are.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 12:28 pm
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:
I don't know too much about guns in spite of my husband owning several. So perhaps you could answer a question. Do either a semiautomatic handgun or sawed off shotgun do as much damage in the same amount of time as a AR-15

Probably not. Handgun rounds are much less deadly. Shotguns (especially short barreled ones) do not carry very many rounds.


revelette1 wrote:
or another similar assault (whatever) gun?

An assault weapon is just a rifle with a pistol grip or other cosmetic feature on it. It does not do any more or less damage than the same gun without the offending cosmetic feature.


revelette1 wrote:
Is it just a matter of a cosmetic (right word?) feature which turns one of those into a deadly weapon such a mass shooter's weapons of choice which has been an AR-15?

The distinction of the assault weapon label is all about cosmetic features. Being cosmetic, those features have nothing to do with why an AR-15 is so deadly.

So, no. Adding a cosmetic feature is not what turns them into such deadly weapons.

What makes them deadly is the fact that they are a rifle with a large magazine. Rifle rounds are far deadlier than handgun rounds. They also punch through Kevlar (without losing any of their deadliness when they do so). And the large magazine lets the shooter fire many times.

They are not the mass shooters' weapons of choice however. Mass shooters seem to prefer handguns. Although the potential for devastation is far greater when a mass shooter uses a rifle with a large magazine.


revelette1 wrote:
If so to the last, then while we are banning assault weapons, ban those too.

Sawed off shotguns are fairly restricted already, and the legal ones are not any problem in shooting sprees or other crime.

The illegal sawed off shotguns are already illegal.

Banning semi-auto handguns would run afoul of the Constitution and Supreme Court (to say nothing of the NRA).

You're not going to be banning assault weapons. The NRA will stop that from passing.

And if the NRA didn't stop it, the fact that there isn't a good reason for banning cosmetic features means that such laws will be ruled unconstitutional in coming years.
hightor
 
  7  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 12:32 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
I know you dismiss this out of hand but there are sane [[more like "paranoid"]] people who feel that a citizenry armed with more than hunting rifles or revolvers creates a bulwark against tyranny.

How's that going to work, Finn? Can you provide a realistic scenario as to how this might happen? I know you poor people suffered mightily under the Obama dictatorship — but you still had enough patience to let the electoral process take place.

Quote:
As for your logic: Opioids are in the news today because people are
killing themselves through their abuse.

As for your logic: Opioids are in the news today because pharmaceutical companies distributed them in an irresponsible manner, actually advertising them, flooding the market with samples, and hastening the addictions of those prone to abusing drugs. Opioids, however, are available by prescription only. Maybe we should change the laws so that firearms are only available by prescription as well.
Setanta
 
  5  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 12:37 pm
For Dog's sake, lawn darts have been banned because they're dangerous, but these clown want assault rifles--probably to deal with the race war they hope to start.
0 Replies
 
camlok
 
  0  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 12:37 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Handgun rounds are much less deadly


Handguns are made of copper alloys, are they not?
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Glennn
 
  0  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 12:52 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
I'm more concerned about the nature of the threats to your safety.

Your position is that I shouldn't have a handgun for home safety unless I can justify it to your satisfaction, and that if I have one, it means that I'm frightened. You're wrong on both counts.

Household members were present in roughly one million burglaries from 2003 to 2007. Twenty-six percent of those households--about 226,560--experienced some form of violent victimization. What you call fear is just my idea of home self-defense. You're really reading way too much into my decision.
Glennn
 
  0  
Wed 28 Feb, 2018 12:55 pm
@maporsche,
Quote:
I imagine those who feel the need to have a handgun for home defense are the same type of people who have bunkers in the backyard, bars on their windows, and 5 locks on their steel core doors. You know, safety is paramount.

I don't have a bunker in my backyard or bars on my windows or five locks on a steel door. Your imagination has turned you into a stereotypical stereotyper.
0 Replies
 
 

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